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Old 06-11-2016, 08:25 AM   #21
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In the deep south most air cond is just air cond with no reverse cycle plumbing.

This is because the added plumbing reduces the air cond efficiency (which may be a 9 or 10 month requirement) enough that heating only a small percentage of the time is cheaper with a heat strip on a year long basis.
True and perhaps not at any added cost at all.

The owner and engineer at Ocean Breeze told me that the heat pump side really does not save over the strip heating option they sell (no difference in price). The units are designed to be a drop in replacement for all boat units and therefor he did not want any required electrical changes. He further stated that the reversing valve is a source of trouble and needs to be exercised several times a year and reduces the AC cooling efficiency by approximately 15%. The units will not provide enough heat to live aboard in the cold north winters but neither would reverse cycle units.

The nice thing about heat strips is that you are only using the unit fan and resistance strip so you can close the sea valve in the winter and water temp. does not change the heat output of the unit. The only sound from the units is the fan running as the compressor gets the season off (lasting longer) you can even have heat on the hard given the proper power.

The breaker size remains the same as it was explained to me that the energy requirements are both nearly the same.

For my use (here in the USA) and my needs, I have straight cool with heat strips. I installed 2 Ocean Breeze 16,800 BTU units and both run and cool well here in Florida during the hottest months and will both work with my 7K noisemaker with power left over to run the water heater.

Ocean Breeze uses only over the counter parts, relays, fans and compressors that can be purchased at any good AC supply house. No computer boards or fancy t-stats, in fact I used t-stats from Home Depot and one unit I can control from my smart phone using the internet.
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Old 06-11-2016, 09:38 AM   #22
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The air conditioning side is reverse cycle. i.e. exchanges heat through the water.

I thought "reverse cycle" meant you could get cool (AC) or heat out of a single unit.

I thought some marine ACs are not "reverse cycle" -- maybe that Flagship thing? -- and use a resistance solution (not raw water flow) to produce heat.

???


FWIW, a live-aboard boat neighbor had a new reverse cycle AC unit installed last year -- Dometic Vector Turbo -- and also had a resistance heat source added to that... so when outside water temps got too low or surrounding water even froze, they still had heat using the Vector Turbo blower fans and the same ducting system.


-Chris
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Old 06-12-2016, 06:34 AM   #23
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"they still had heat using the Vector Turbo blower fans and the same ducting system.

And the heat cost 3 to 5 times the electricity of the Air Mini split style units.

If electric is "Free", that's fine , at 25c a KW it can add up in a winter aboard.

If resistance heat is used aboard the simplest style oil filled heaters do an OK job and are far more reliable than diesel fed truck and bus heaters repurposed for boat use.
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Old 06-12-2016, 06:41 AM   #24
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"they still had heat using the Vector Turbo blower fans and the same ducting system.

And the heat cost 3 to 5 times the electricity of the Air Mini split style units.

If electric is "Free", that's fine , at 25c a KW it can add up in a winter aboard.

Yeah, but at least they knew what to expect, they needed a new reverse cycle AC anyway, and had the heating element all done at the same time because it was the easiest physical solution for that particular boat.

And they were on metered electric service (we all pay our own directly to the local utility), so they knew it was their dime.

It wasn't intended to be used all that often, just when the reverse cycle system couldn't draw enough heat from sea water. Like when the marina was frozen in.

I think I said they did it last year, but I mis-typed. It was the previous year, and it got them through the 2014/15 winter. Then this last winter, they took the boat south for the inter, NC or GA or somewhere like that. Maybe used their savings in electricity money to pay for the trip.

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Old 07-18-2016, 03:01 AM   #25
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we install all ready 3 unit this is totally incredible technology, inverter start slowly the compressor no big A to start like old model



soon I can I'm going to change my chiller by inverter technology to run AC on solar panel.



Hugues

Where do you buy your units? I have contacted a dealer in Fort Lauderdale but they are not providing a deliver price and I'm leary of them now.

Norm
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Old 07-18-2016, 06:10 AM   #26
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Where do you buy your units? I have contacted a dealer in Fort Lauderdale but they are not providing a deliver price and I'm leary of them now.

Norm
I think all of the air-cooled mini split systems I'm looking at use inverter technology.
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Old 07-18-2016, 08:09 AM   #27
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The owner and engineer at Ocean Breeze told me that the heat pump side really does not save over the strip heating option they sell (no difference in price). He further stated that the reversing valve is a source of trouble and needs to be exercised several times a year and reduces the AC cooling efficiency by approximately 15%.
HE LIED!

45+ years in HVAC I've never not seen or known a Rev Valve to fail. Many techs thought "bad Rev Valve" but it was usually relays or low refrigerant.

When in the heat cycle the compressor draws even less amps then when in the cooling cycle.

A 5 KW strip heater for example. can draw 20 amps on 240 volts

the strip heaters on Marine units have to be small enough to run on even less amps which means very small strip heaters.

compressor load of around 16,000 btu will draw less then 8 amps. you don't have to believe me, check the name plates and published ratings of the machines.

nearly all units are what ypeople think is "soft start" it's just how they
work.

I don't think any MFG uses the old reciprocating compressors anymore. Most if not all use "rotary or scroll" compressors.



Inverter tech is here to stay and taken a big foothold in the HVAC business.

Just one more note. Marine acs are not strange or unique. they are simple self contained water cooled units.

This what makes them "water cooled" It's called a "coaxial" heat exchanger. (tube in tube)
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Old 07-18-2016, 12:22 PM   #28
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So basically the tube in a tube allows the condenser heat to be recovered and used when heating is needed? Do both condenser and evaporator sides go through those coaxial heat exchangers in marine chillers?
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Old 07-18-2016, 01:07 PM   #29
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In heating cycle the heat ex actually becomes the evap and the evap becomes the condenser, large systems like high-rise blogs and possibly ships can use a closed or open loop with many units giving and taking heat from the water
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Old 07-18-2016, 02:33 PM   #30
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Just curious...the 16K btu Webasto lists .....

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?...083&id=3050539

Specifications:

Voltage: 115 Volts AC or 230 Volts ACCooling Capacity: 16,000 BTU/hHeating Capacity: 16,000 BTU/hRated Frequency:115 Volts AC = 60Hz230 Volts AC = 50/60HzRated Current (C/H):115 Volts AC = 11.2/12 Amp230 Volts AC = 5.6/5.6 AmpRefrigerant Charge: R410A (0.5kg)Comp. LRA:

Their running amps is up near what mine is ...they list 11. 2 cooling and 12 heating.....mine is 10.8 and a touch higher for heatingon my Marinaire unit.

My manual also says to switch from a/c to heat or vice versa every month to keep the reversing valve operational.

Curious your thoughts?
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Old 07-18-2016, 03:11 PM   #31
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the rating plate shows full load, most of the time it should run on less amperage but the circuit needs to be as rated. I'd not run that one on 115 volts!

the Rev valve is in the sealed refrigerant system won't hurt to switch to heat. but I don't feel it's necessary. Most Rev Valves work by a change in operating pressure through a pilot valve

http://www.heatpump-reviews.com/imag...ating-mode.jpg

They have or had a plastic core that would jam. I think most of the mfgs have solved that problem, once upon a time they also said run the AC to keep the seals lubed. but that really isn't true on hermetically sealed systems.


Here are the ratings on the Frigomar inverter run unit comparable size.

Cooling capacity
6.000-16.000 BTU/h
Heating capacity
6.000-16.000 BTU/h
Max input power cooling
0,91 kW
0.91 kW
Max input power heating
0,99 kW
0.99 kW
Max Current
4,7 A
4.7 A

pretty amazing just like the mini split units.
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Old 07-20-2016, 07:19 AM   #32
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Does anyone know where to buy Marine Inverter BLDC heat and air conditioning self-contained units? I need 24K BTU unit and would like to compare deliveries prices to compare with standard non inverter compressor units.

Thanks



Norm Miller
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Old 07-29-2016, 07:43 AM   #33
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Is there any info available on the relative noise factor of the BLDC inverter self-contained units? I'd like to understand how they'd compare to a same-BTU conventional Marineair/ Vector type unit
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