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Old 09-12-2016, 08:40 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by SaltyDawg86 View Post
If you are the stand on vessel then that means STAND ON, not tack and close the CPA. The stand on vessel still carries the responsibility of avoiding the collision.
Thank you, this point is often overlooked.
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Old 09-12-2016, 09:05 AM   #42
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PSNeeld - not inferring that it was a chapter and verse case. I've seen everything used for lighting, and it seems to be an "if it lights up, turn it on" world. You are also spot on with the bliss of ignorance of many boaters, whom may never take a minute to read or participate in a forum like this.

I'm happy for Mike that he avoided a possible bad situation even at the last minute, and also that he bared his situation hereto all. A night rescue would have made the news and not in a good way especially with any younger passengers. No one was hurt thank God.

One thing that has not been brought up is the age of the operator. Even with corrected 20/15 vision, I have the Admiral on bridge with me because I know that it is impossible to see everything, and low light can amplify issues with visibility even if your other lights are dimmed and you're operating with red ambient light. A second set of eyes can be a great assist.

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Old 09-12-2016, 09:08 AM   #43
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Did I miss something? What bone head thing did the other vessel do besides not anticipating that your boat didn't have a proper watch? It was showing proper lights and had right of way. Is your complaint that its cabin lights should have been on since yours were? I hate to generalize, but that is how sea rays get a bad name.

As often, the central issue is the "spirit of generalization" which always categorizes people in stereotypes and prejudices.

If you hate to generalize, why do so now ? Do you think this as being beneficial now and also led to positive information ? Of course it is your privilege to have your own opinion about what you so-called "Sea Rays" but I see no link with the post of GFC.

Over the past year Mike (GFC) and I have shared perhaps 50 emails or more of our personal boating experiences with plenty of photos and charts attached. I can tell Mike & Tina are not kids, both of them, Mike AND Tina, are skilled, experienced qualified seafarers who are surely aware of danger to boating at day and night time. I have been boating on Columbia river which is not always easy, they provided me numerous well-considered advices and substantive information. Over here they just wanted to tell us the circumstance what led them to a possible issue, just to help us increase once again our understanding that any situation at sea (or river) is fragile and may quickly turn into a safety danger. The navigation rules is one thing, but the reality underway is quite another.

By boat - or plane - (I don't think FlyWright or any pilot would contradict me here) this kind of situation may mostly happen in areas where we are (too) familiar with, it can happen to anyone. The two last possible issues I recently met happened in places I have been many times before (Cannes Islands, France, & Angel Island San Francisco Bay).

Thank you Mike, always glad to read from your interesting adventures on the water, we therefore need to continue to be prudent as we proceed whatever the brand of the boat we are cruising...

Not arguing here, only positive outlook.

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Old 09-12-2016, 09:14 AM   #44
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PSNeeld - not inferring that it was a chapter and verse case. I've seen everything used for lighting, and it seems to be an "if it lights up, turn it on" world. You are also spot on with the bliss of ignorance of many boaters, whom may never take a minute to read or participate in a forum like this.

I'm happy for Mike that he avoided a possible bad situation even at the last minute, and also that he bared his situation hereto all. A night rescue would have made the news and not in a good way especially with any younger passengers. No one was hurt thank God.

One thing that has not been brought up is the age of the operator. Even with corrected 20/15 vision, I have the Admiral on bridge with me because I know that it is impossible to see everything, and low light can amplify issues with visibility even if your other lights are dimmed and you're operating with red ambient light. A second set of eyes can be a great assist.

mike
Hope one of the eye docs can confirm this....

in USCG aviation... I was often told something similar to this....that night vision of a 40 year old is only half of a 20 year olds and the night vision of a 60 year old is only half of a 40 year olds.

that's independent of visual acuity...but I guess even there there is some connection....

Eye docs? Help!!!!!

even if that's a fairy tale...I am pretty sure night vision as you age degrades faster than many senses.
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Old 09-12-2016, 09:40 AM   #45
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If the sailboat is only sailing and not using their motor.

COLREGS - Collision Regulations - Sailboats & Power Boats
And in this case, the sailing vessel did NOT stand on! Know all the rules before spouting little sections that only fit your case.

This is why I'm all for making rec. boaters get a license as well. They should take the 100 question rules exam and pass it or not be on the water.
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Old 09-12-2016, 09:50 AM   #46
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I hate when discussions turn into Colregs being quoted and right and wrong under them. Colregs discussions assume something that just doesn't exist and that is that everyone has a full understanding of them and will follow them. If the other boat or boats do not, then the only reg that matters at all is to do what you can to avoid an accident. Common sense then comes into play and awareness. It is not about being right. It is about not having an accident. This isn't about technical regulations from which various people can pull different sections and argue about which carry weight in the situation. It's about avoiding an accident.

Often avoiding an accident is done by the boat that was right according to regs, sometimes by the one that was wrong. Sometimes both boats, often just one. That's part of the beauty that one boat can screw up and you still don't have an accident if the second boat takes evasive action. If the probability of one boat making a mistake is 5%, then the probability of both doing so is only 0.25% and that is what saves us. The real numbers are probably less than 1% and 0.01%.

An accident was avoided. Ultimately that is all that matters.

For those so intent on going to regs, I ask about driving your car. If you have the green light, are you really going to pull out the regs and barrel on through even though the other car is clearly running a red light? Of course not. And you're going to be glad you stopped, even though the regs say the other car was supposed to.

Accident avoidance. That's the goal. That was achieved. In this case one boat saw what had developed and took the evasive steps.
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Old 09-12-2016, 09:59 AM   #47
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And in this case, the sailing vessel did NOT stand on! Know all the rules before spouting little sections that only fit your case.

This is why I'm all for making rec. boaters get a license as well. They should take the 100 question rules exam and pass it or not be on the water.
Did the OP change his mind, he said this himself, what is with this crappy rudeness, having a bad day?
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Now I realize that the sailboat under sail was the stand on vessel and we were the give way vessel.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:08 AM   #48
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An accident was avoided. Ultimately that is all that matters.

For those so intent on going to regs, I ask about driving your car. If you have the green light, are you really going to pull out the regs and barrel on through even though the other car is clearly running a red light? Of course not. And you're going to be glad you stopped, even though the regs say the other car was supposed to.

Accident avoidance. That's the goal. That was achieved. In this case one boat saw what had developed and took the evasive steps.
This says it all. Very well explained and clarified in an excellent example.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:13 AM   #49
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[QUOTE=SaltyDawg86;479113This is why I'm all for making rec. boaters get a license as well. They should take the 100 question rules exam and pass it or not be on the water.[/QUOTE]

I have always thought this is a good idea. I know some states have some requirements in place. In CA, if you can write a check, you can get a very large boat and you are good to go with 0 training.

I am not implying we need to be rule experts...just the basics.


There is a 54 Ft high end boat with a 5 ft. Wide hole punched through it on my dock. Reportedly, his second collision in several months.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:16 AM   #50
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Sailboat masthead lights can be a problem for me. I had one tacking across a river and with his heel the lights were barely visible. Also my eyes are generally scanning lower down where most small boat running lights are. And the tacks can be unpredictable. I think some sailboaters like challenging powerboats as some sort of sick sport.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:17 AM   #51
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Did the OP change his mind, he said this himself, what is with this crappy rudeness, having a bad day?
.
The OP said what? The OP said he changed his course, that's not standing on. The rules clearly explain what stand on means. You can't alter at the last minute with out the other vessel knowing then say "I had the right of way, yoy should have moved!"

I'm having a great day, but the arm chair QBs that are giving the OP a hard time for no reason is getting a little annoying. Had there been a collision, neither would have walked away scott free in the eyes of the law. Its not rudeness, its being blunt.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:19 AM   #52
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There is a 54 Ft high end boat with a 5 ft. Wide hole punched through it on my dock. Reportedly, his second collision in several months.
Were they reportedly both collisions or allisions? There are far more of the latter, than of the former.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:20 AM   #53
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I have always thought this is a good idea. I know some states have some requirements in place. In CA, if you can write a check, you can get a very large boat and you are good to go with 0 training.

I am not implying we need to be rule experts...just the basics.


There is a 54 Ft high end boat with a 5 ft. Wide hole punched through it on my dock. Reportedly, his second collision in several months.
I agree, they dont need to be experts, just know the meat of the rules. Va has a free basic boater safety class that everyone operating a boat must have, but I dont know that it covers. I'm sure not much given its only a few hours.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:27 AM   #54
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The way the sail boat was lit, he was telling you he was under power, and therefor the give way vessel the whole time except maybe at point A.

And even if he was under sail and lit accordingly, as others have reminded us, the stand-on vessel has an obligation to STAND-ON. It's not a game of dodge-ball.

But all the rules aside, I think these wake up calls are really valuable, just like the sinking of the Nordhavn Ghost Rider. It's so easy to overlook something that might become critically significant. Anyone who thinks they haven't is either oblivious or lying. And with experience we can become dangerously "comfortable" and start missing things even more. It's a constant exercise of checks, cross checks, and resolving discrepancies. Plus regular reminders that we are all human and need to go check and cross check again.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:31 AM   #55
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The OP said what? The OP said he changed his course, that's not standing on. The rules clearly explain what stand on means. You can't alter at the last minute with out the other vessel knowing then say "I had the right of way, yoy should have moved!"

I'm having a great day, but the arm chair QBs that are giving the OP a hard time for no reason is getting a little annoying. Had there been a collision, neither would have walked away scott free in the eyes of the law. Its not rudeness, its being blunt.
Listen to what he said,

"Now I realize that the sailboat under sail was the stand on vessel and we were the give way vessel."

I took his word for it, but yeah your quit disgustingly rude to me.

Funny but I did also have to take that boat course as I a in Va or I could not pilt my boat. Regardless does not mean anything, but i passed and that requires better than 90%, still means nothing. Just that I am no ignorant fool.
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Old 09-12-2016, 11:19 AM   #56
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You guys are much better students of the COLREGS than I am. I admit that. I have much more to do in my life than read and memorize the COLREGS.


I saw the sailboat, saw his white mast head light and his red nav light (at point "A") and as he traveled from A to B and then to C. Given that his white light was so high, I made the determination that he was a sailboat, even though at "B" I couldn't see the boat yet. I could only see his nav lights and see his image on the radar screen.


When I said earlier that he was the stand on vessel, I was referring to the fact that he was a sailboat. Stupid me, I should have memorized that COLREGS section so I would have known he was a sailboat under power. Or, I could have pulled out my handy dandy copy of the Nav Rules, searched for the proper section to see who truly was correctly lit and who truly was the stand on vessel. Silly me.


Instead, I took evasive action to avoid a collision and we all were the better for it that night. Someone mentioned the 5 blasts of the horn and a few choice words. Had we not had a boat full of women I most certainly would have unloaded verbally on him. Discretion is the better part of valor so I chose not to turn the ears of the ladies on board to a bright red color. Had it been a boat load of guys on board I probably would have done that and they probably would have joined me in verbally abusing the sailboater.


The old saying "All's well that ends well" certainly applies here. None of my guests had to get involved with a night time rescue, everyone when home safe and in good spirits and, ultimately, that was the intended goal of our night cruise.


Continuez, il n'y a plus rien voir ici.
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Old 09-12-2016, 11:24 AM   #57
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Listen to what he said,

"Now I realize that the sailboat under sail was the stand on vessel and we were the give way vessel."

I took his word for it, but yeah your quit disgustingly rude to me.

Funny but I did also have to take that boat course as I a in Va or I could not pilt my boat. Regardless does not mean anything, but i passed and that requires better than 90%, still means nothing. Just that I am no ignorant fool.
Correct, and since you have that fancy class out of the way, go buy yourself a Rules of the Road book and learn the duties of the stand on vessel..... I dont have to take that class so I dont know what it covers.
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Old 09-12-2016, 11:32 AM   #58
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PSN - a decent article link below about night acuity over a certain age, which is another good reason to travel with a high level of caution after dark. This articles' basis is driving, but does detail some of the why's of vision deterioration. It would be good to have a doc weigh in here on the forum.

Night Vision and Driving: How Safe Are Older Drivers?

Mike - everyone is safe, and that is a very good thing.
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Old 09-12-2016, 11:32 AM   #59
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You guys are much better students of the COLREGS than I am. I admit that. I have much more to do in my life than read and memorize the COLREGS.


I saw the sailboat, saw his white mast head light and his red nav light (at point "A") and as he traveled from A to B and then to C. Given that his white light was so high, I made the determination that he was a sailboat, even though at "B" I couldn't see the boat yet. I could only see his nav lights and see his image on the radar screen.


When I said earlier that he was the stand on vessel, I was referring to the fact that he was a sailboat. Stupid me, I should have memorized that COLREGS section so I would have known he was a sailboat under power. Or, I could have pulled out my handy dandy copy of the Nav Rules, searched for the proper section to see who truly was correctly lit and who truly was the stand on vessel. Silly me.
Thats the wrong attitude to have, but that is the attitude a lot of rec boaters have. The "I dont care" causes a lot of damage, injuries and death. I bet thats why the sail boat turned right in front of you. I bet he didnt care enough to learn the rules. If you think you're responsible enough to own a boat, be reaponsible enough to keep people safe and not put your vessel in a position that it wouldnt have been in had you known the rules. This isnt directed only to you GCF, its directed to everyone.
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Old 09-12-2016, 11:34 AM   #60
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Now now GFC...


I taught the stuff for a time and use them in my profession....and I basically came to your defense early on....


That's because I have studied them and have most committed to memory...but starting to lose a few to disuse....


That's why while they are even somewhat unclear in writing, they are unclear on the water even more so.


That's why rule 2 requires all of us to act as prudent mariners at all time, rules be damned.


But if rules are to be followed, then we must try and follow as many appropriate ones as possible.


So memorizing the whole book is best left to instructors.


On the water captains should be pretty familiar with the ones they are most likely to see and use.


But as a whole...yes...this was a nice learning, low energy situation that reminds us about lookouts, crew management, situational awareness and maybe a few other things.


But as I posted before...probably not much will change because it was pretty much a nothing burger.
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