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Old 09-28-2016, 10:21 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
That's a wrong and deadly conclusion. In all the many designated anchorages in the San Francisco Bay/Delta, only the special anchorage in Richardson Bay does not require anchor lights.

" 109.10 Special anchorage areas.
An Act of Congress of April 22, 1940,
provides for the designation of special
anchorage areas wherein vessels not
more than sixty-five feet in length,
when at anchor, will not be required to
carry or exhibit anchorage lights. Such
designation is to be made after investigation,
by rule, regulation, or order,
the procedure for which will be similar
to that followed for anchorage grounds
under section 7 of the Rivers and Harbors
Act of March 4, 1915, as referred to
in 109.05. ..."

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-20...l1-part110.pdf
IMO - Common sense tells me to Turn-On anchor light whenever anchored without daylight present! Just that simple!!
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Old 09-28-2016, 10:39 AM   #222
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IMO - Common sense tells me to Turn-On anchor light whenever anchored without daylight present! Just that simple!!
Same here. If I'm anchored and it's dark, the "anchor light." Those two words really seem to sum it all up for me, "anchor light." It's not called a "light to be used for anchoring when not specifically excluded from requirements by an act of congress." I think of that boater zipping around through the area and how does the Congressional exclusion help them see you're anchored. Not at all. There is not some flashing neon sign saying, "Many anchored boats here but they will not have their lights on."
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Old 09-28-2016, 11:08 AM   #223
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In the airline world we have gone beyond the CRM/BRM ideas. It is now assumed. Granted, it still needs to be at the core of what we do. But it has been around long enough where it is ingrained culturally and it is evaluated in our proficiency training.

Since CRM, we have taken it up a notch. Threat and Error Management is pretty much where we are at. I have talked about it many times on here. It is not only important to know how to operate your boat and manage your crew and resources, it is important to know the threats that are present at the time of operation. Some of those threats are not under our control. Weather would be one of them. Traffic, another. Obstructions and shallow water would be yet another. Controllable threats would be managing automation. Managing distractions.

So knowing threats is extremely important. Once we know them, we can prepare and/or avoid them. We have tools for those threats. Tools would be checklists, radar, skill, policy, procedure, etc.

Knowing threats is important. Threats can lead to errors. Knowing when we have made an error and managing that error so it has no impact on the operation. So we must recognize and repair error to return to a safe operation.

If error go unchecked and unnoticed, they eventually lead to what we call a UAS...an Unsafe Aircraft State(unsafe ship state in this case). If we do not recover from an UAS, an accident/incident occurs.
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Old 09-28-2016, 11:21 AM   #224
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I wear this right behind my company ID hanging from my shirt pocket.

Another current buzzword in aviation safety is "cognitive bias" and it is interesting. An example would be something like your expectation of making your destination. Sounds simple enough. We all expect to make our destination. But the closer we get, the stronger that expectation becomes. You add threats and errors in the operation and then you add a heavy dose of cognitive bias(expactations in this case), and some very bad decisions can be made. Those threats in boating maybe be decreasing visibility...nightfall...heavy traffic. What are you going to do when those threats stand in your way of making your destination??? A rhetorical question and one that is easy to answer from your armchair. But put yourself in the captain's seat and then a crew around you looking for you to make the decisions and your "mission centric" personality and things can go wrong in a hurry.

You can apply all these things to this accident. The threats were the jetty itself and to a greater extent, complacency. Their complacency of a short easy trip led them to make the error of not following their own self imposed stringent preparation. That error was never repaired and led to the accident.
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Old 09-28-2016, 11:33 AM   #225
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If this stuff interests you, check out the link below. It explains different cognitive biases and how they relate to aviation. These are definitely applicable to operating a boat as well. Interesting stuff IMO....


https://airlinesafety.wordpress.com/...aft-accidents/
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Old 09-28-2016, 12:14 PM   #226
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Same here. If I'm anchored and it's dark, the "anchor light." Those two words really seem to sum it all up for me, "anchor light." It's not called a "light to be used for anchoring when not specifically excluded from requirements by an act of congress." I think of that boater zipping around through the area and how does the Congressional exclusion help them see you're anchored. Not at all. There is not some flashing neon sign saying, "Many anchored boats here but they will not have their lights on."
Truism[s] - If I've Even Seen One/Them!

Seems to me (via statement in some other post) the "specific" exclusion was put into place during 1940. Pleasure boating was a different world back then - I can confidently say!
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Old 09-28-2016, 12:22 PM   #227
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Great information! Thank you
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Old 09-28-2016, 12:24 PM   #228
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I cant find it right now but anther technicality of special anchorages are about not having a live watch....so nobody to to turn it on.

also vessels less than 7 meters don't have to show an anchor light in most areas....rule 30
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Old 09-28-2016, 12:43 PM   #229
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Baker,

Agreed, good info... I guess I got out of the airline business early enough to avoid the bias issue, but really interesting stuff.

Question: Do people in boating have a "operations manual" of sorts. Suspect they would in the commercial side, but wonder about pleasure boating..... Basically a manual that says what you will and will not do, limitations, operational specs, how you will run the boat, managing the systems, passengers, mates, maintenance, etc.?

I haven't thought of making one, and probably won't, but food for thought.
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Old 09-28-2016, 01:12 PM   #230
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Commercial companies all have operation/procedure manuals as well as planned maintenance computer software that is ship specific, some better than others.
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Old 09-28-2016, 01:30 PM   #231
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I cant find it right now but anther technicality of special anchorages are about not having a live watch....so nobody to to turn it on.

also vessels less than 7 meters don't have to show an anchor light in most areas....rule 30
Yes, an absolutely insane rule but one made in times perhaps it was assumed they didn't have lights. If you're 6.9 meters and choose to not display an anchor light because you don't have to, then that's very foolish on your part.
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Old 09-28-2016, 02:10 PM   #232
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The disconjointed part of this conversation is: professional mariners. (With hours and hours of training) have different expectations of performance and competence. There is a difference between competence and confidence. Look up JFK Jr. He had 'unlimited
Confidence'. But very limited competence. Licensing and regulation often blurr the difference.
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Old 09-28-2016, 02:34 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld
I cant find it right now but anther technicality of special anchorages are about not having a live watch....so nobody to to turn it on.

also vessels less than 7 meters don't have to show an anchor light in most areas....rule 30



Quote:
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Yes, an absolutely insane rule but one made in times perhaps it was assumed they didn't have lights. If you're 6.9 meters and choose to not display an anchor light because you don't have to, then that's very foolish on your part.
I cannot see any reason in 2016 why an anchored boat (of any length) after sunset would not have anchor light on. Short of total system malfunction or possibly needing to be in hiding for some reason.
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Old 09-28-2016, 03:10 PM   #234
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The disconjointed part of this conversation is: professional mariners. (With hours and hours of training) have different expectations of performance and competence. There is a difference between competence and confidence. Look up JFK Jr. He had 'unlimited
Confidence'. But very limited competence. Licensing and regulation often blurr the difference.
I think there's a huge blur over the definition even of professional mariner. There are many wearing such a label who don't regularly show professionalism, There are also many different types of mariners and the knowledge and experience don't always transfer to other forms of vessels and other areas of sailing as one might think. There are so many areas of specialization. Running supply vessels in the Gulf, towing barges on the Mississippi, captaining a container ship, captaining a cruise ship, captaining local tours, running a ferry daily, time on a 400' yacht, time on a 36' center console. All are very different and while the rules may generally be the same, applying them is far more of a challenge. i have a friend who has run more different <100 foot boats than anyone I know. It doesn't matter what it is, he can jump aboard and operate it and fix any issues that arise. He knows far more about those boats than the captain who has been on nothing under 200' or the one who has only done commercial work.

Two people with identical licenses may have extremely different areas of knowledge and expertise. You're right that licensing doesn't give a clear view of what one is really capable of. It doesn't in any field though. How many different types of doctors or lawyers? Yet, the basic license is the same.

Take the word "Doctor" which my wife hates to have used referring to her. Not only all the medical types but all the others. For a broken arm, probably not wise to go to a JD or a PhD in Curriculum and Instruction.
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Old 09-28-2016, 03:25 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld
I cant find it right now but anther technicality of special anchorages are about not having a live watch....so nobody to to turn it on.

also vessels less than 7 meters don't have to show an anchor light in most areas....rule 30





I cannot see any reason in 2016 why an anchored boat (of any length) after sunset would not have anchor light on. Short of total system malfunction or possibly needing to be in hiding for some reason.

For years with our sailboats, we would hoist a lantern on a halyard at night for an anchor light. It would burn all night long. You don't need modern tech to comply with the regs or to be safe. It is just easier now.
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Old 09-28-2016, 03:29 PM   #236
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Take the word "Doctor" which my wife hates to have used referring to her. Not only all the medical types but all the others. For a broken arm, probably not wise to go to a JD or a PhD in Curriculum and Instruction.

😇 I think I will refer to WifeyB as "Dr. WifeyB" from now on. After all, she earned that PhD.
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Old 09-28-2016, 03:46 PM   #237
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😇 I think I will refer to WifeyB as "Dr. WifeyB" from now on. After all, she earned that PhD.
Wifey B: And then I've got a name to refer to you by, that you might not be fond of either.....

i just saw too many in education use degrees as some form of superiority. To me, I was a teacher like any of the other teachers with my areas of expertise as they had their areas. I was and am proud of being a teacher. I'm sure I would have been considered least likely to be one.
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Old 09-28-2016, 06:46 PM   #238
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Here is a current example of professional mariners not paying attention:

Power, phones, internet knocked out on Gabriola, Mudge Islands - British Columbia - CBC News

This occurred last night. Power is expected to be out 48 hrs.
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Old 09-28-2016, 07:22 PM   #239
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Wifey B: And then I've got a name to refer to you by, that you might not be fond of either.....

i just saw too many in education use degrees as some form of superiority. To me, I was a teacher like any of the other teachers with my areas of expertise as they had their areas. I was and am proud of being a teacher. I'm sure I would have been considered least likely to be one.
Wifey B - Perhaps I missed it, the suspense is Killen Me! You hold PhD in what; please, do tell. - Thanks, Art
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Old 09-28-2016, 07:52 PM   #240
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😇 I think I will refer to WifeyB as "Dr. WifeyB" from now on. After all, she earned that PhD.
Absolutely, regardless if it's a MD, DDS, or PhD., if she earned it you bow down and call her Doctor.
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