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Old 03-22-2016, 02:28 PM   #21
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I just tested Dish HD on my boat system and it is fine. This is an old LNB system that tracks one satellite at a time. The comments in this thread about the receivers and switches being the issue may be on to something. Dish (and DirecTV, Bell, etc.), as was stated above, aren't really that interested in the marine portion of the market. Dish has some RV and "tailgating" products and it would be interesting to see if the RV folks are having the same issues with any recent changes.

FWIW: I "trick" my 3 Dish receivers into thinking they're looking at 2 satellites so that I can get my OTA programming locally. I set up 2 dishes and a switch (an old SW-21) and let the receiver search for them. Once it finds both (72.7 and 61.5 w/ my locals), I take away the 61.5 dish, but the receiver still remembers it. I can see where initial configuration with the KVH-style domes would be difficult as the dish on the inside can only "look" at one satellite location at a time and the receiver is expecting to see 3 satellites at the same time as a home triple LNB dish would do. I'm sure software could fix this but the marine market for this just isn't large enough perhaps?

A possible work around might be to tell your dome (KVH or other) to only "look" at one satellite at a time. For me 72.7 for Dish has the vast majority of my content. I'm not sure if that can be done but it couldn't hurt to check KVH or Intellian. You can find which channels are on which satellite locations here:

http://www.satelliteguys.us/thelist/index.php?page=sub

Eastern Arc
72.7 has most HD content.
61.5 has the duplicate SD content.

Western Arc:
119 has HD for the most part.
110 has SD for the most part.

Just point to either 72.7 (if your dome supports it) or 119 and you should have your HD back I would think.
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Old 03-22-2016, 02:44 PM   #22
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Now, what I don't understand in your anger toward KVH and looking for alternatives, why don't you feel the same toward Dish? Dish caused it and not just for KVH.
Your comment below exactly describes why I am not disappointed with Dish (on this particular issue).

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And to people like Dish, the marine industry is completely immaterial. We don't even show up as a blip on their radar. They really aren't very concerned about KVH or any of our issues. Can't really say that's wrong either, as a business has to concentrate on it's primary customer base.
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Old 03-22-2016, 02:47 PM   #23
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I just tested Dish HD on my boat system and it is fine. This is an old LNB system that tracks one satellite at a time.

FWIW: I "trick" my 3 Dish receivers into thinking they're looking at 2 satellites so that I can get my OTA programming locally. I set up 2 dishes and a switch (an old SW-21) and let the receiver search for them. Once it finds both (72.7 and 61.5 w/ my locals), I take away the 61.5 dish, but the receiver still remembers it. I can see where initial configuration with the KVH-style domes would be difficult as the dish on the inside can only "look" at one satellite location at a time and the receiver is expecting to see 3 satellites at the same time as a home triple LNB dish would do. I'm sure software could fix this but the marine market for this just isn't large enough perhaps?

A possible work around might be to tell your dome (KVH or other) to only "look" at one satellite at a time. For me 72.7 for Dish has the vast majority of my content. I'm not sure if that can be done but it couldn't hurt to check KVH or Intellian. You can find which channels are on which satellite locations here:



Just point to either 72.7 (if your dome supports it) or 119 and you should have your HD back I would think.
Your comments are very encouraging, and I will certainly try this. Right now, it doesn't seem to recognize a satellite at any location.
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Old 03-22-2016, 03:45 PM   #24
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Your comment below exactly describes why I am not disappointed with Dish (on this particular issue).
I'm disappointed, but not surprised. I also don't mean to put Dish as a whole down over this because they'll have their turn of problems but those of us using Direct TV know ours will come as well.

It just seems with things like this that testing in the early stages would have sent both sides to the drawing board to figure out solutions. They're not going to write to KVH's requirements, but KVH should have, and perhaps did, had time to develop to Dish's changes. Also, if they haven't previously notified owners that they were going to at a given future date drop support for older equipment, then they should provide it in this instance. It's easy enough and common enough in technology to issue a bulletin saying 18 months from today we will no longer be providing support on xyz.
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Old 03-22-2016, 03:54 PM   #25
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Kurt,

What are you using for a system on your boat? The eastern ARC for DISH has been 8PSK for quite a while so what you are using for tracking must either not care about modulation or can handle the 8PSK format. Your technique of doing the DISH switch check on land and then moving the receiver to the boat is one way to speed things up. In the long term, save all the SW-21/44/64 switches you find as I don't think they are being made any more. Even the old legacy LNBs made for some antennas may be hard to find.

The DISH Tailgater system was built by Winegard for DISH and was future proofed as it was designed using the latest generation LNBFs and modulation formats in the control section.

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Old 03-22-2016, 04:05 PM   #26
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Lol Tom. I didn't understand one bit of that. I am going to have to learn since the boat I want to buy has a KVM M5 and my wife wants to use it.
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Old 03-22-2016, 04:34 PM   #27
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Dave,

You can figure it out. I did and I majored in forestry. It's a lot cleaner to work on than a macerator. My DISH antenna sits on the dock next to my boat. The dock is stable enough that it doesn't need realignment very often and then only with the toe of my boot.

Let me know if I can help.

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Old 03-22-2016, 05:00 PM   #28
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"Sounds Apple-esque, who will dump support for old equipment and software faster than that". Really George? Which Apple products discontinued support after less than ten years?

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Old 03-22-2016, 05:02 PM   #29
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Kurt,

What are you using for a system on your boat? The eastern ARC for DISH has been 8PSK for quite a while so what you are using for tracking must either not care about modulation or can handle the 8PSK format. Your technique of doing the DISH switch check on land and then moving the receiver to the boat is one way to speed things up. In the long term, save all the SW-21/44/64 switches you find as I don't think they are being made any more. Even the old legacy LNBs made for some antennas may be hard to find.

Tom
I'm using a legacy Voom dish at my house (if you remember the short-lived Voom fiasco). My ski place has two legacy Dish 300s and on the boat I use a legacy LNB on an AzTrax unit:



That is a 30' power cat and domes were HUGE when I bought that thing nearly 10 years ago. I'm looking into domes for my trawler but I may go "ghetto" and use a white dish on a Track-it-TV.
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Old 03-22-2016, 05:06 PM   #30
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Your comments are very encouraging, and I will certainly try this. Right now, it doesn't seem to recognize a satellite at any location.
Let us know how it goes. It is concerning the unit isn't "seeing" any of the satellites, not even with SD content. It is almost like the LNB is now incompatible with the signal. I'm surprised at that since my legacy equipment is working fine. However, I was reading up on the small KVH unit and they had a disclaimer that it isn't compatible with the Eastern Arc satellites. It would truly suck if that expands to few year old larger units and both Easter and Western Arcs. Not really a Dish issue but not making me look very hard at KVH or Intellian equipment. I wonder how the Raymarine owners are doing?
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Old 03-22-2016, 06:09 PM   #31
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Kurt,

If I am correct your system doesn't acquire satellites by looking at specific transponders but simply looks for energy across the frequency band output by the LNB. The original cheap satellite meters worked using the same principle. On yours you set the elevation and it pans until it finds energy and then stops when it detects something. To change satellites you probably have to change elevation. As long as the boat doesn't rock too much it probably works fine. You would be immune to the change DISH made. Looking at the AzTrax you could convert to the DISHPro LNBF (the newer technology) with the DPP33/44 switch. PM me and I will describe how to do it.

The older LNBs work with any signal modulation. They are kind of like a broadband radio receiver, anything they hear between 12.2 to 12.7 GHz they convert to 950 to 2150 MHz and send it down the cable to the receiver. The tracking terminal splits off some of the signal and uses that to determine if it is on a satellite. The AzTrack is looking for energy and the KVH/Intellian and others are looking for a specific transponder frequency and modulation format. Change the modulation format and they become stupid. The reason for the KVH comment on the eastern arc was probably because that arc has been 8PSK for quite a while.

Raymarine was fairly late to the TV game so I suspect they built in the capability to adjust satellite modulation like KVH did in their later units. They would still have to send all their customers new firmware or have them make changes in the tracking configuration.

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Old 03-22-2016, 06:55 PM   #32
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Ah, Tom, you've educated me! I had no idea the domes are looking for transponders. With AzTrax or Track-It they're even more simple than you guess. They're not "looking" for energy. The user sets the elevation and manually "dials" in the azimuth. A built in compass keeps the dish aligned with the birds once signal is manually peaked. I believe I'm already using DishPro LNBFs at some locations. They work great when only working with one bird.
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Old 03-23-2016, 06:45 AM   #33
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This KVH document explains what is going on and isn't good news for the OP.

Changes to Tracking Parameters of DISH Network

One would expect KVH to do a little more than offer a tiny discount on an obsolete product.
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Old 03-23-2016, 11:14 AM   #34
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Kurt,

DISH is converting all transponders over to 8PSK so the patch on KVH systems without the RF7 board will only be temporary.

Not good news for owners of the older systems.

Tom
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Old 03-23-2016, 09:13 PM   #35
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I've had an Intellian for over 6 years with no issues except once.
Very happy with the unit and its performance.
I had DirecTV but switched to Dish to get HD channels

The one issue I had, I called tech support on a Friday evening of a 3 day holiday weekend.
I was basically resigned to hearing from them Tuesday and hoping I'd be first in queue.
The tech support guy called me back on Saturday AM, while on his holiday, to help me thru what turned out to be my issue.

One other time I had to call Tech support, same thing, guy called me back while on vacation (he was at the beach with his family when he called me).

That level of customer support has kept me from straying to any other satellite product.
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Old 03-23-2016, 10:57 PM   #36
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Kurt,

DISH is converting all transponders over to 8PSK so the patch on KVH systems without the RF7 board will only be temporary.

Not good news for owners of the older systems.
Tom, I have to admit that all the info that you have given on this matter has gone right over my head.

The boat that I have an offer on has a pre-2013 TracVision M5 antenna. As I read that bulletin from KVH, I am a bit confused. Are they saying that an antenna built before 2009 can have the tracking parameters changed for the 110*W and 119*W satellites or that those built between 2009 and 2013 can have the RF7 board installed and then work?
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Old 03-23-2016, 11:07 PM   #37
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The Dish Network Eastern Arc has been "live" for years with 8PSK. For KVH to be so behind the technology curve again (after the DirecTV Ku/Ka switch years ago) is quite sad. There's no way I'm buying any of their products. It is nice to hear that Intellian has such good support though.
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Old 03-23-2016, 11:14 PM   #38
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Interestingly enough, i was shopping htese systems today as I need to replace the cable for my sea king above the pilothouse. I really want directv as it matches my home account and will hopefully get me sunday ticket. I also figured, i should have hd. if i am gonig to upgrade, I want hd.

What I found is that directv hd uses the Ka band. Dish uses the ku band fo hd, but directv dropped hd from their Ku band a while ago.

Intellian offers the s6hd and gets both ku and ka bands i saw prices for it around $8k

KVH offers the hd7 that gets the Ka and Ku bands for a little over $10k at W Marine.

I was also told that the kvh can track 2 satellites at once. I dont understand this, but was also told that if you have more than one receiver on the boat , you can switch between local and directv programming. Again, i may have not really understood what they were saying and i might have gotten it wrong.

Im seriously considering both of these units, but I sure would like the cheaper Intellian unit if it will meet my needs. I have no qualms about using Korean tech as we have seen a big influx of Korean equipment that has proved itself over time in my field for the last decade or so that qualms any fears about its use.

However, if anyone has had any recent negative experience with Intellian receivers , I sure would like to hear it here first.
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Old 03-24-2016, 12:19 AM   #39
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Dave,

DISH was rolling out the change to the new modulation scheme 8PSK over a period of months. The patch KVH issued in December only changed the transponder that it was tracking on to one that had not been changed to 8PSK. There are 16 transponders they could pick on 119 for tracking but when they are all converted, the pre 2009 terminals won't be able to track. The ones made after some date in 2009 up until 2013 will need to be refitted with the RF-7 to track on DISH. In the survey get the serial number off the KVH and compare it to the list and that will tell you conclusively where you stand.

Just for grins today I looked at the terminals from KVH, Intellian, and Raymarine. Intellian really didn't provide enough information to tell how they work with DISH. KVH was also a little shy of information. Raymarine gave an in depth description of their DISH solution and it is solid and uses current DISH technology. I couldn't say the same for the other two.

KVH and Intellian have solutions for DirecTV HD. While both the Ku and Ka bands are involved, the orbital slots are close together (99,101,103). While I didn't delve in it deeply, they should be able to be looking at all three satellites simultaneously. Raymarine doesn't have anything like that the best I can tell.

Tom
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Old 03-24-2016, 12:28 AM   #40
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I will see if I can get the serial number next Wed. I have a feeling that I am going to be rather overwhelmed during the day however with information overload and trying to take advantage of the chance to go through the boat with both the mechanical and hull guy.

If I am lucky, the KVH M5 will simply become an auxiliary anchor. I don't have any desire to have television on board. The boat isn't my home like so many, but an escape. My wife on the other hand, is a news junky and loves to watch cable news in the evening. She could find a whole lot of other things to do with the money we are spending on the boat, so it pays to keep her happy.
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