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Old 02-12-2012, 03:55 PM   #1
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Is the sail a solution?

Gents

I will not have the means or the money to install a stabilizing system in my boat to be. http://www.trawlerforum.com/t47561046/rainha-jannota-turned-up-side-up-ii/

By original plan and under my primary request, the boat was designed with a 33 tall mast to be able o raise a rag that was intended to stabilize the motion while cruising and slow down the same while on a hook. I know that I have to build a small mast/boom for other purposes like a crane and/or electronic sensors tower, but this will be a lot more cost effective unit

So far I have heard enough negative comments about it. The general consensus is that the hull will never move with a sail due to the nature and dimensions of it, therefore, a smaller mast with a significant smaller sail (130 sq feet), will do the (stabilizing) job. Apart from that, I would be saving a huge amount of money.

Boat Disp. 55200 lbs, LWL 40.20, Beam 16.57, Draft 4.75

Do you guys think that I should spend all that money to install the original set up? Does a sail really minimize motion? Is $20K a fair price to pay for the results? Would you do that if you were building a new boat?

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Portuguese
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Old 02-12-2012, 04:09 PM   #2
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RE: Is the sail a solution?

We were contemplating adding a steady sail to our GB not long after we bought it. We had no thoughts of propulsion, just some stabilizing and to reduce hunting on a mooring or at anchor and so limit the rolling component of motion when waves enter a bay. After talking to some GB owners who have them we abandoned the idea. On a GB a steady sail does work as advertised to help reduce yawing on a mooring/anchor for the same reason that putting feathers on the back of an arrow makes it go straight. But everyone we talked to said a steady sail the size that can be accommodated on a boat like ours is virtually useless at reducing or slowing roll in a beam or quartering sea. Plus it can put a hell of a strain on the mast stays, and the mast stays and hardware on boats like ours are not made to take that kind of stress and pressure.

Since then I have read comments on forums from a few boaters who say a steady sail does help a bit to dampen rolling in a beam or quartering waves, but the help is pretty minimal. Most people continue to say they don't help much or at all with underway stabilization and the risk of breaking something (on a stock mast and boom rig) is too great.

Today if we want to minimize yawing on a mooring or anchor we simply put out a stern anchor.

If one can fabricate a mast and boom that are large enough, are stayed strong enough, and locate them properly as on Mark's Coot, a sail rig can provide a degree of both propulsion and stabilization that are probably worth having if you want them.
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Old 02-12-2012, 04:56 PM   #3
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Is the sail a solution?

I don't think a small "rag" will be of much use.

The 14-ton Coot has both a main sail and jib.* Jib is larger than the main.

In a gentle breeze on a broad reach, I get about an extra half-knot with the Coot's sails (speed under motor - 6.2 knots, with the addition of* sails -*6.7 knots.*)

In a gentle breeze from astern with the motor off, I get about 2 knots, enough for steerage way.* With only the main sail, steerage way is lost and the boat turns beam to the wind.

Haven't used my sail rig extensively since my outings to date have been limited*in length.* Nevertheless, it appears the rig does help to stabilize as well as extending range.** Having both jib and main are key.* Mast and stays should be designed specifically for the sail rig.

My sail rig cost $6500 including mast, sails, rigging, and installation.* Don't see why your proposed rig cost so much relatively higher.


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Old 02-12-2012, 05:06 PM   #4
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RE: Is the sail a solution?

Greetings,
You WILL get some stabilisation BUT, $20K will buy a lot of fuel. Pick your weather.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:02 PM   #5
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RE: Is the sail a solution?

check out the diesel ducks by george buehler.
interesting info
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:07 PM   #6
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RE: Is the sail a solution?

I would think of making simple provisions, (like mounting bracket structural support, maybe pad eyes for rigging, and so on) to add a mast, boom, and sail at later date if necessary. Try the boat for a while if you find the rolling is a problem you could look at having the mast boom etc. made and installed.
Are you planning to cruise near Brazil or will you come up North on your travels?
Good luck with your project!
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:14 PM   #7
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RE: Is the sail a solution?

Quote:
Steve wrote:
*Try the boat for a while ....................
******** That's what I would do! If rolling is a big problem, address it later.
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Old 02-13-2012, 04:16 AM   #8
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RE: Is the sail a solution?

For stability flopper stoppers will work 5-10 times better, even anchored.

IF the rig was large enough to work as a get home , even 3K ,will keep you out of the hands of "rescuers" that will expect to own a high percentage of your boat , for a tow.

$20K would install a "get home" setup that might work better, and as most use the noisemaker , at least it would be proven.
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Old 02-13-2012, 04:36 AM   #9
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RE: Is the sail a solution?

FF
Is the "standard" trawler mast/stay/boom setup strong enough for flopper stoppers? With a typical boom set up which (say) reaches out 3ish feet beyond the gunwhales is that enough distance from the boat to provide effective damping of the rolling motion?

Cheers
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Old 02-13-2012, 04:54 AM   #10
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RE: Is the sail a solution?

Gents:

Thank you very much for your input. Based on it I will build the structure to hold the pre-designed arrangement but I will not install it. First I will try the boat in my cruising grounds, Brazil, and then decide what to do based on practical results.

Marine grade aluminum is very rare and 2.35 times more expensive than in US.

A get home engine is my first project after launching Rainha Jannota.

Regards

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Old 02-13-2012, 05:27 AM   #11
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RE: Is the sail a solution?

From my experience and reading that a fairly tall steadying sail may give some nice steadying while underway..more effect as the beam wind goes up ...but even in windless conditions it may help some.* the problem is then at anchor or at a dock...a taller rig may actually increase the amount of roll and duration unless you have the sail up.

As far as cost...I don't know about where you are but all over the US are scrap masts and rigging from demolished/scrapped sailboats,* My boss has several laying around...and I have been playing with the idea of relacing my factory wood due to some rot.* I bet I could get it for less than $500...there are some on ebay too for way less than $500.* They usually clean up nicely...may be worth thinking about if that is the route you choose.
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:46 AM   #12
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RE: Is the sail a solution?

I thought the primary reason for the mast on boom was to be able to lift the dink ton top of the roof?* The simple and cheapest is the fish stabilizers which we have discussed before.* A steady sail is best at anchor to be used to keep the boat into the wind/waves.** I still plan on adding fish stabilizers to the Eagle.
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:02 AM   #13
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RE: Is the sail a solution?

I agree with the "try it first" plan. If you feel you need stablizers after testing the boat, look into installing paravane Flopper Stoppers. They work and should be a lot cheaper than active stabilizers. If you have trouble finding anything for your boat, I might be able to help. We have several customers in Brazil and ship there often.
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:27 AM   #14
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RE: Is the sail a solution?

Most boat owners that I have spoken with about sails on a trawler say that they help at anchor to keep the bow into the wind and that is about all. The exception is if the sails are much bigger than a typical steadying sail.
*I sold this converted shrimper around six years ago , the owner was able to use the existing rigging to hoist used sails from a 60' sailboat.These sails were really big. *He said it helped in a beam sea and gave him a slight added speed if the wind was right.
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Old 02-13-2012, 03:11 PM   #15
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RE: Is the sail a solution?

Have you considered an anti-roll ballast tank?

*

Complicated in design, but very simple in operation.
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Old 02-14-2012, 04:44 AM   #16
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RE: Is the sail a solution?

Have you considered an anti-roll ballast tank?

Lots of internal volume required for them to work, right in the "good" space of the boat.
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:39 AM   #17
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RE: Is the sail a solution?

...All things thought, the best is still finishing the boat, make a trial run, ballast her properly and then figure out the need for a roll stopper equipment. Anyhow, a small mast will be there as a crane and for the radar and radio antennas.

Thank you all

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Old 02-14-2012, 09:32 AM   #18
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RE: Is the sail a solution?

The only reason I would added sails to the Eagle is to increase the range and/or as big UGLY rag get home.* *I see in the video that bilge keels were installed which should help dampen the roll.* Since you are planning to anchor out for diving having a small steady sail to keep the bow in the wind might help.
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