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Old 07-23-2015, 09:34 AM   #1
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Rolly Polly ????

I have a 36 ft Gulfstar trawler. Other than the beam sea induced roll we are happy with the vessel. Need to stop the roll. Any suggestions? I have tried the stay sail, questionable results. Don't think the sali is big enough. Next looking at "Bilge Keels". Documents on these keels is non-conclusive. I do believe the best results are on round bottom hulls as I have. Kristen Marine has use paravaines on their 25 ft Bojam trawler with excellent results. Any thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.

Ken
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Old 07-23-2015, 09:44 AM   #2
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You pretty much listed the solutions in order. Past those are active fins and gyro-stab.


Steadying sails do work in beam seas....the stronger the wind the smaller they can be. So if in a wind induced chop..you might see improvement with a normal sail...but most of the time or in swells different than the current wind induced...the sail has to be big...almost as much as what a sailboat would carry. For inland waters where the rough stuff is more wind induced than swell....just enlarging the sail is often the simplest.


Bilge keels help...but now are one step up on the design and expense ladder.


I just live with the roll and try to plan for conditions where it is tolerable...but then again for now and probably forever my longest open water passage will only be the Bahamas and maybe Cuba.
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Old 07-23-2015, 10:09 AM   #3
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Old 07-23-2015, 10:09 AM   #4
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I have a boat that rolls easily too and I find changing course either helps or almost eliminates the roll. Just a few degrees change in course changes the timing of the waves passing under your boat. It's natural tendency to roll back and forth can be matched (bad rolling) or mismatched to achieve minimal roll. Experiment w the wakes of passing boats applying various angles of course crossing them and you'll find if you get it right practically no roll will happen. Of course if a course change is impractal as when you're in a narrow channel being passed by another boat ....
Most of the time that's not the case.
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Old 07-23-2015, 10:31 AM   #5
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I have a boat that rolls easily too and I find changing course either helps or almost eliminates the roll..
As Eric has stated, "tacking" the boat is a great help. Just because you have a power boat, don't ignore the lessons of "sailors" who have gone hundreds of years before. And, as he has stated, it doesn't take much of a course change to smooth things out.
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Old 07-23-2015, 10:45 AM   #6
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Quote:
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As Eric has stated, "tacking" the boat is a great help. Just because you have a power boat, don't ignore the lessons of "sailors" who have gone hundreds of years before. And, as he has stated, it doesn't take much of a course change to smooth things out.
That's what we do no big deal . We've been caught in a trough before an it becomes a quick snappy roll and not sure what to do when that happens. I get the look like
"get us out of this " Anybody got suggestions ?
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Old 07-23-2015, 11:07 AM   #7
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My steadying sail helps quite a bit in some situations, tacking too. Paravanes seem like too much rigging / trouble for me. The rolling doesn't bother me really anyway. Offshore, on AP, I'll tack before using the head or or making a meal the rest of the time I sit with my legs out, braced across the bridge seat, facing my "danger zone" and read. Good seaboats roll.
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Old 07-23-2015, 11:49 AM   #8
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Kasten has a good article about anti rolling devices, http://www.kastenmarine.com/roll_attenuation.htm.

The only thing he seems to have missed was gyroscopes.

Bebee's book also discusses roll attenuation.

Later,
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Old 07-23-2015, 12:28 PM   #9
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We over came the snap rolling on our Marben by adding 20 55# lead ingots to the bilge and either sides of the engine bed. We still roll but very softly. It also assisted with the "Hobby Horse" effect due to the short water line length of 27 feet. All points of the compass regarding motion were vastly improved.
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Old 07-23-2015, 12:37 PM   #10
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Be careful about arbitrarily adding ballast.


I believe I have read that just adding it to the center of the boat and low can actually worsen some already bad habits in some vessels.


Of course trial and error carefully done is something anyone can try.
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Old 07-23-2015, 12:47 PM   #11
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My boat is very roll as well, even with the bilge keels. I'd hate to see how roll it is without them. Raising the sails almost completely eliminate the roll, IF there is 15+ knots of wind. The only time I have to put up with a bad roll, is after several day of strong winds, when the seas are still rough but the wind has died.

I have about 300 square feet of sail area. I don't know what a Gulfstar has, but I'd guess about half that.
A bigger mast would be needed to increase your sail area, but paravanes may be a cheaper option. I'd recommend either, rather than bilge keels.
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Old 07-23-2015, 02:01 PM   #12
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Question here . Our boat originally was a commercial fishing boat with reel and it also has telltale signs of outriggers . The reel and outriggers or para vanes were removed . The fish hold has a generator ,not sure if that was original or not , but I guess something ran the hyd for the reel . I have about 400 gal fuel capacity and 150 gal water . I only keep about a fourth of fuel capacity on board and 1/2 the water because we only have time for short trips . If and when we get the time to really stretch our legs is toping everything off going to help at all with roll? Should I be considering adding ballast because the reel and outriggers are gone ?
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Old 07-23-2015, 02:10 PM   #13
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The nice thing about a steadying sail is it doesn't need shape...just tight like a board.


So without increasing the mast height..there are different possibilities of increasing sail area such as gaffs or sprits.


A lot of work...but so are all the other alternatives.
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Old 07-23-2015, 03:56 PM   #14
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Pack Mule,

Given having the tankage would keep the tanks on the full side. Let me explain. We added the 1100 # of aforementioned ballast of lead due to lack of tankage and the ensuing weight. Other models of our Marben came with 200 gallons of fuel and 100 gallons of water capacity. Our boat has 74 gallons of diesel and 48 gallons of water. You can see the vast difference in weight factor between two same boats. The comment regarding the care in location of ballast is actuate. As we located the lead in the same location of tankage of the larger capacity we believe we are in tune with the manufactures concept.
On top of this weight added, we recently exchanged the lighter weight engine Perkins 4-154 that is approximately 450# lighter than the replacement Perkins 4-236.

The removal of the commercial reel and plumbing has at a minimum 400/500#. Added to this is the lack of the additional fuel/water weight. contributes to adding top side weight effect. The removal of the rigging will add to the quickness of boat movement. Even with the gear in the upright position when it was installed, roll would have been reduced, When in the lowered position with the “fish” deployed the effect of rolling is reduced by a huge factor. Full fuel/water and reinstalling the commercial style para vanes would seem the easiest fix.
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Old 07-23-2015, 04:01 PM   #15
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Albin recomended putting ballast under the catwalk by the gunwale. Didn't do anything for right-ability I suppose but it's was known to dampen the snap part of a snap roll to a degree. Slow rolling is much less bothersome than quick roll response. The words "snap roll" was a very common expression among Albin owners. Heavy boats can have a snap roll too if quite flat on the bottom w hard Chines and beamy. Quite a few trawlers come to mind.

Holy cow Marty you've got too much tankage too. I've not had any water buildup from condensation but I keep checking.

Yes any weight added to the boat will help dampen roll. We have two tons of it inside the hull in the bottom of the keel. We sold the Albin and bought the Willard (weighing 4 times as much) and going from the Albin snap roll to the relatively slow roll of the Willard was a great relief. Many fishing boats in Alaska have roll rates so slow Willy's roll is a snap roll compared. Very seldom now do I holler "WAKE" to Chris so she can brace for rolling.
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Old 07-23-2015, 04:04 PM   #16
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Beebe describes an anti-roll tank thing, I think water-filled IIRC. Might be the same as what Kasten mentions, but I seem to remember Beebe's book had some illustrations...


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Old 07-23-2015, 06:24 PM   #17
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Complete myth that "any weight added" will help dampen roll.


Placement is often way more important than "weight"....especially for those that keep telling us how weight is "bad".


In the wrong spots it can increase the amplitude or rate.


Putting weight out in the ends or beam might increase the amplitude a bit...but the momentum required to move it from wave action can slow the motion.


Think metronome among other things. That's why boats with paravanes will lower the riggers even if the fish aren't deployed because it slow the roll.


Be careful what you do and who you listen to...way to may partially educated experts....


Either it's a slow and careful trial and error...or someone has to run some numbers....


Rules of thumb are only as good as those who know what to apply and when.
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Old 07-23-2015, 06:46 PM   #18
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Complete myth that "any weight added" will help dampen roll.


Placement is often way more important than "weight"....especially for those that keep telling us how weight is "bad".


In the wrong spots it can increase the amplitude or rate.


Putting weight out in the ends or beam might increase the amplitude a bit...but the momentum required to move it from wave action can slow the motion.


Think metronome among other things. That's why boats with paravanes will lower the riggers even if the fish aren't deployed because it slow the roll.


Be careful what you do and who you listen to...way to may partially educated experts....


Either it's a slow and careful trial and error...or someone has to run some numbers....


Rules of thumb are only as good as those who know what to apply and when.

What he said!
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Old 07-23-2015, 07:39 PM   #19
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Marty since others have ignored your question I'll hazzard a guess. I say hazzard as psneeld will discredit it however he can.
Your boat should float "on her lines" I think is the expression and on your boat it's quite unlikely that that could be determined. If you knew the original displacement and could determine closely what the boat weighs now that would be a start. Basically the only thing left is to apply a CG fore and aft. How one would do that I don't know. Running the boat in challenging situations while being able to change the weight fore and aft so as to have good handling on following seas ect would be a very time consuming trial and error method that would work according to the skill and knowledge of those doing the experimenting. By asking a NA you would get a far better scope on how to do this but since you ask and nobody responded this is a rough guess. My own opinion only.
Having said that a simpler approach would be to distribute the weight in the boat somewhat evenly and perhaps favoring amidships and "see how she handles".

To dampen roll added weight should obviously be a considerable distance nice from CG. I thought that would be obvious.
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Old 07-23-2015, 07:58 PM   #20
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To dampen roll added weight should obviously be a considerable distance nice from CG. I thought that would be obvious.
The whole point...... it is NOT THAT SIMPLE.....
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