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Old 03-12-2015, 04:19 AM   #1
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Roll attenuation

Hello,
Someone here already try this type of equipement .
Tested here with paravanes :

http://www.irsst.qc.ca/media/documen...RSST/R-811.pdf
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Old 03-12-2015, 12:57 PM   #2
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A view we can find in the file

It look more simple to use than paravanes
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Old 03-12-2015, 03:06 PM   #3
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Wish I could easily read French.....

Those external fins should work well. One will have to do something with them when approaching a dock. On this coast the fishermen love their "Batwings". They are fixed flat plates under the hull bolted either side of the keel. Once installed they require no more labour.

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Old 03-12-2015, 03:56 PM   #4
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For those interested here is a gisted translation of the summary page of the link provided by the OP:

SUMMARY

Comparing the statistics of fatal accidents in the fishing industry and those of other professional categories reveals that fishing is one of the most dangerous occupations. Aboard a ship, the work is done in difficult conditions on a platform moving, exposed to the weather and slippery. For reasons of safety and ease of execution during fishing operations, workers are seeking to reduce the influence of ship motion, using the roll damping systems whose main function is to limit lateral movement without much influence longitudinal movements (pitch) caused by the sea. This project was, firstly, to inventory depreciation systems roll semi-seas fishing vessels operating in Québec and, secondly, to conduct comparative testing of performance of the two most popular systems in Quebec: the hinged ailerons to a rapidly emerging system and those to paravanes, the most widely used system in our fleets.

The inventory revealed that half of the 292 vessels over 15 tons are equipped with a system paravanes, while the hinged flaps system comes a close second (11%) as the roll damping device. The implementation of the latter, however, is growing. In addition, a survey that 53% of 30 joined skipper-owners who had their equip hinged ailerons ship in late October 2010, reveals a high level of satisfaction on all levels: easy handling, comfort, safety and overall performance at sea.

In summer 2010, sea trials were conducted aboard two twin crabbers, Martine Danie equipped paravanes and Rudy L1, equipped with hinged ailerons. The purpose of these tests was to verify whether the L1 Rudy favorably included with respect to three areas of concern fishermen and regulators: the stability of the boat, the safety and comfort of the crew, as well as energy costs (fuel). Three days of sea trials were conducted in the Chaleur Bay off the coast of the Gaspé Peninsula. Each day included 21 trials of 15 minutes each during which three major variables were tested: 1) the position of the damping system (vertical, semi-deployed and immersed); 2) the speed of the boat, based on operational situations (drift, half speed as in a fishing operation and full speed as in the path between the pier and fishing ground); 3) the ship's position according to wind direction (front, back through). Data were recorded continuously using specialized tools such: an inertial unit, a torque indicator deployed on the drive shaft, the speed relative to the background as the GPS position, direction and speed wind by means of an anemometer. Weather conditions experienced during the three days were pretty mild so that the agitation of the sea was rather moderate.
Whereas this environment, the average values ​​of the amplitude of the roll, recorded during lateral movements of Danie Martine and Rudy L1, ranged within a safe range, spread between 2 and 6 degrees. Specifically, the results show that the average minimum values ​​of the amplitude of the roll were recorded on Danie Martine; while the maximum values ​​were observed on Rudy L1, although the differences were small, especially when the roll damping systems were immersed. The amplitude of the pitch values ​​were lower when the boats were drifting or at half speed and the roll damping systems were not deployed. The minimum values ​​were around 1 degree; while the maximum values ​​were in the order of 2.5 degrees. Traveling, Rudy L1 showed a higher pitch than the amplitude Danie Martine. In terms of energy consumption, Rudy L1 was more efficient than Martine Danie at half speed; while the energy required for their movement was equivalent to full speed when the roll damping systems were deployed.
Like the system paravanes, the hinged ailerons system can be considered a beneficial system in terms of reduction of roll, allowing better overall stability of the boat and an improvement in the safety of the crew. Similarly, our visual observations show that hinged ailerons are simpler and easier to deploy by the crew that paravanes. Besides, it is easier for the captain to determine the scope hinged ailerons, fixed geometry system than paravanes whose geometry is influenced by the water resistance effect on the couple Cables- paravanes. This makes it easier to avoid obstacles that float on the surface or sub-surface.

Translation by Google Translate.
https://translate.google.com
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Old 03-12-2015, 04:02 PM   #5
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I've seen stabilisers that swivel, but never hinged ailerons.

Are there any photos?
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Old 03-12-2015, 04:23 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustybarge View Post
I've seen stabilisers that swivel, but never hinged ailerons.



Are there any photos?

Yes in the link from post 1, scroll to near the end of the document.

Looks interesting as does the drawing in Tad's post.
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Old 03-12-2015, 04:36 PM   #7
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Yes in the link from post 1, scroll to near the end of the document.

Looks interesting as does the drawing in Tad's post.
The aileron looks like it's fixed at a predetermined angle of attack and does not swivel like a conventional stabiliser.

Is it just a bilge keel that lifts up?
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Old 03-12-2015, 09:22 PM   #8
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Sage advice regarding hinged fins; https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafet...010-04-eng.htm
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Old 03-12-2015, 09:58 PM   #9
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Thank you Murray.

One of the reasons our paravane stabilizers work so well, is the momentum arm effect of having a pole that is 18 to 20' long at 45° gives you a lever of 14'.
In addition the bird (fish) is designed to resist upward motion.

Once bureaucracies get involved, science gets left behind.
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Old 03-13-2015, 05:51 AM   #10
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Canadian marine/safety and paravanes

Quote:
Originally Posted by MurrayM View Post


Same reserve here concerning the use of Paravanes :


https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafet...000-15-eng.htm
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Old 03-13-2015, 09:57 AM   #11
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Same reserve here concerning the use of Paravanes :


https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafet...000-15-eng.htm
Good catch

I guess the lesson the Canadian Government is trying to make is that stabilizer systems (of any kind) come with risks; especially when something goes wrong or breaks on one side of the vessel, or when the system instills a sense of complacency or overconfidence when in conditions beyond the design capabilities of that stabilizing system.
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Old 03-13-2015, 12:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wxx3 View Post
Thank you Murray.

One of the reasons our paravane stabilizers work so well, is the momentum arm effect of having a pole that is 18 to 20' long at 45° gives you a lever of 14'.
In addition the bird (fish) is designed to resist upward motion.

Once bureaucracies get involved, science gets left behind.

I believe you have used both your paravanes and active stabilizers. In your opinion can a Krogen 42 be comfortable cruising the Bahamas and Caribbean with only paravanes?
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Old 03-13-2015, 01:00 PM   #13
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I believe the main intent behind those warnings from TC (linked above) is to try and get people to understand that there is a difference between motion (comfort) and stability (safety).

These warnings do not apply to vessels with adequate stability.

While stabilizers improve the vessels motion, they do nothing for her righting ability when heeled.

There are many boats in the Canadian fishing fleet (and fishing fleets worldwide) whose stability is unknown and highly suspect. By suspect I mean below minimum accepted worldwide standards. These boats continue to go fishing, using some form (mostly paravanes) of stabilizer to reduce heel angles while operating. But this artificial stability augmentation can get people drowned when it fails. Thus the warnings.
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Old 03-14-2015, 10:00 AM   #14
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May be this type of "hinged ailerons" could be interresting for our boatbecause :


-simple to use (who said I am a lazzy guy !? )
-simple to fit
-not had to much wheight on the top
-foldables


and for us most important not expensive to make $$$$$

Our boat have a (too !? ) big stabilty and at the begening our roll periode was ....2", now after years and : mast,rigging, tender , solar panels , windgenerator on the top the roll period "fall" to around (little less) ...3"

And it is allready more confortable
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Old 03-14-2015, 11:27 AM   #15
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I think it won't be long before you see transom mounted trim tabs used for roll control. They already have a sensor which will level a small boat when weight shifts. Couple that with fast acting actuators and you have roll control.
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Old 03-14-2015, 12:11 PM   #16
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Quote:
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I think it won't be long before you see transom mounted trim tabs used for roll control. They already have a sensor which will level a small boat when weight shifts. Couple that with fast acting actuators and you have roll control.
I presumed the ailerons were real ailerons as on aircraft wings, not just folding bat wing plates.

real aircraft ailerons would work well as there would be no need to bore a bloody big hole in the hull like conventional stabs. An aileron foldiing up like in the example above, but the rear edge would have a moving surface to counter roll as on a a/c wing.

A control rod for the aileron would be located outside the hull and run from the bulwarks down to the 'moving flap surface' underwater, making it easy to attach the electronic gyro equipment at deck level.

The whole system could be fabricated at home with a welder, some steel plate, a couple of long steel rods, and a gyro from a model helicopter.
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Old 03-14-2015, 02:10 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsmb View Post
I believe you have used both your paravanes and active stabilizers. In your opinion can a Krogen 42 be comfortable cruising the Bahamas and Caribbean with only paravanes?
No, that's not me. I do not have active, nor really wanted them.

My paravanes are great.
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Old 03-14-2015, 03:53 PM   #18
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In my experience not a good idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by HopCar View Post
I think it won't be long before you see transom mounted trim tabs used for roll control. They already have a sensor which will level a small boat when weight shifts. Couple that with fast acting actuators and you have roll control.
Using trim tabs a roll control is not a good idea, because the trim tabs drive the bow of the boat down. In following sea conditions use of trim tabs can make a boat extremely difficult to steer and increase the boats tendency to broach. If you want to experience boat handling frustration, try running down the face of 6' waves with trims tabs down.
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Old 03-14-2015, 06:25 PM   #19
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Scary, it's easy, don't use the tabs if you're going down hill. The thinking is to turn them on when in a beam sea. The company working on this idea is also thinking faster boats than most of the folks on this forum have. I think the technology can be made to work on slower boats as well but paravanes work well on slow boats and there may not be a demand there.

I'd like to try the tabs on Possum. She is too fast for paravanes and too small for fins or gyros.
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Old 03-14-2015, 08:14 PM   #20
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I had trim tabs on my old 23' Olympic in the 90's and enjoyed them but found them touchy and so dependent on speed, sea conditions, weight distribution. I have my trawler now and enjoy the paravanes but often find that just lowering the poles gives me a much improved ride and don't always have to put the birds in the water. I brought my boat up from Bellingham to Sitka in '98 and don't recall a bad ride but had the paravanes fitted in Sitka by Precision Boatworks based to some degree on "Hobo"'s design and have been really pleased with them. I know some have just placed one "bird " in the water to attenuate the roll and reduce the loss of speed but I have not given that a try and cannot speak to it's effect. I recall Sam Barnard of "Princess" writing of his using this single bird in the water technique and I think he was very experienced and got the most of his stabies. I don't profess to have near his experience with his well found boat or stabies.

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