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Old 10-01-2015, 07:47 AM   #81
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Yup. Spot on Shufti. We share the same territory. Where do you moor by the way?

And are you going out this weekend..? it's a long'un, and the forecast is perfect.
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Old 10-01-2015, 08:02 AM   #82
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No boating this weeknd, unfortunately, Pete. Just got back on Tuesday from a week in the Sandy Straits. Currently we're berthed in Bundy - but plan to bring her down to Scarborough in a month once current lease expires (and we get a weather window). We're all a little disappointed with the week just gone as the family had hoped for a last blast to Musgrave and/or Pancake Crk - weather saw the end of those plans. But although a bit miffed, we hardly 'slummed it' in the 'Straits.

Going back up Bundy this weekend - but not for boating. Some cleanup work on house up there to get it on the rental market.
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Old 10-01-2015, 10:52 AM   #83
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shufti,
Like to know ....
Size of anchor, chain and boat? Length of chain and scopes used. Have you ever anchored at short scope and windy conditions? Do you use a bridal?

Sorry all the questions but it sounds like you've got experience to share. Like your avatar picture .. can we see it bigger?
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Old 10-01-2015, 11:21 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by hmason View Post
I believe it's time to gather together all of the anchor threads and posts into a book so that Newbies can get up to speed quickly. It might not be a bad idea to convert them to Cliff Notes so that Newbies won't have to spend months reading the book. Who knows, it might be a best seller. We could share the profits and all buy new anchors.

OK Mr Mason .... you're on. But Mark's right. It would be very confusing. One could isolate quoted coments re subject matter such as slotted flukes, shank length. Anchor brand, new anchors/old anchors, shipping anchors, chain re performance, scope re prrformance, bridal ect, ect, ect.
Wouldn't take much skill ... just a lot of time and organizing skills. One couldn't make a book out of it as it's almost completely opinions and unverifiable experiences.

But for the most part shuch a thing already exists .. our anchoring section.
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Old 10-01-2015, 11:44 AM   #85
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Peter B wrote;
"Eric, I always have to tie off and use motor power when directly over the Sarca to engage the trip mechanism to get the thing out no matter what unless on pure shingle or over rocks."

I think this is very interesting. VERY INTERESTING.

Most of the time I don't even notice when the slack is gone and I'm lifting the anchor off the bottom. And I use various anchors. But only once w a slotted shank and that really dosn't count as the anchor didn't set.

This means there's something very different happening. And Peter you wrote "to engage the trip mechanism". That means (to me) that you manipulated the rode to move the shackle to the heavy end of the anchor for extraction. How could you know? Does the anchor come up hanging on the shackle that is at the tripping end of the slot? Don't see any other way to know and I think once the anchor is out of the bottom it would hang from the usual working end of the slot.
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Old 10-01-2015, 12:07 PM   #86
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Not so Eric, sorry, and sorry guys for putting up so many posts in succession but y'all keep asking questions that deserve a reply, and most of you are in bed right now.
The shackle in the slot when setting the slotted anchor is in exactly the same place it would be if the bolt preventing slot sliding was in place, so absolutely could not interfere with setting unless you did what I'm sure none of you would do, and that just drop the anchor, and then all the rode on top of it at a standstill, with no backing up at all. Even then unlikely, but it might be remotely possible if you managed to land it on its end with shank vertical, then dropped the lot on top. But actually, I have sometime deliberately anchored that way to see what happens, and the roll bar virtually makes it impossible to foul the shank, even trying hard.
Peter B,
Re my experience of the Supreme not setting I think the anchor landed on it's back (top of the shank down) and my backing down didn't swing the anchor around due to boat and anchor orentation. Or the shackle went to the heavy end of the anchor and flipped the shank over putting the anchor up side down. I expected to anchor several to many times before this happened. I plan to weld on a sort of longitudinal "hoop" parallel to the shank that would function like the roll bar. It would act much like the V shaped pad on the top of the SARCA. This appendage would be a little lighter that the roll bar and act much like the shank on the Boss, Vulcan and probably the Spade.

I may deliver the anchors to Steve (for submerged experimentation) or work on them myself this winter. Right now I'm scrambling to get things done on boat and around the house before non painting or freezing weather arrives.
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Old 10-01-2015, 02:27 PM   #87
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Quote:
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Peter B wrote;
"Eric, I always have to tie off and use motor power when directly over the Sarca to engage the trip mechanism to get the thing out no matter what unless on pure shingle or over rocks."

I think this is very interesting. VERY INTERESTING.

Most of the time I don't even notice when the slack is gone and I'm lifting the anchor off the bottom. And I use various anchors.

Without regard to slots, our normal is having to use the engines, and usually a 180-degree turn-around once the rode leads straight up from the anchor. That's with SuperMAX and Fortress. Not so often with the Deltas we used at one time...

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Old 10-02-2015, 06:33 AM   #88
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Eric,

You're going to hate me - the Anchor itself is a 45lb and the boat is a 35' flybridge ~ 10t dry weight - so 11-12 with fuel, water and family I guess. Not exactly sure of the chain size - 10mm i think. Not got around to needing replacement yet, so haven't investigated to be honest. I'm not even sure exactly how long the chain is. Somewhere around to 30-40m I've decided over the last two years since owning her.

By my 1missispi, 2missispipi guesstimation - the shortest scope I've used (by necessity) is 3:1. I've weathered 25-30kn winds at that scope for a few full days and many 1/2 days - but in a sheltered coral lagoon (Lady Musgrve Is).That is, sitting in 10m of water - and it mostly all out. I've never needed to test it at a lesser ratio due to the waterways and islands we frequent. Many of the anchorages we anchor in are fast flowing tidal - 2-3knt in places and commonly >=1.5knt. Bottoms range from well scrubbed fine gravel, sand and mud. If it's less than 10m deep I still let it pretty much all out if I can.

Thanks for the avatar pic comment. That is a pic of my (then 6yo) daughter on the sunset of our first night on our first weekend trip in the boat - anchored off Frazer Island after a fairly crappy-condition crossing of Hervey Bay. Got to bolt out the door now but I'll hunt a bigger version.
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Old 10-02-2015, 06:52 AM   #89
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Quote:
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Peter B wrote;
"Eric, I always have to tie off and use motor power when directly over the Sarca to engage the trip mechanism to get the thing out no matter what unless on pure shingle or over rocks."
I think this is very interesting. VERY INTERESTING.
That means (to me) that you manipulated the rode to move the shackle to the heavy end of the anchor for extraction. How could you know? Does the anchor come up hanging on the shackle that is at the tripping end of the slot? Don't see any other way to know and I think once the anchor is out of the bottom it would hang from the usual working end of the slot.
You are right Eric, most of the time it has slipped up to the normal place in the slot, but just once or twice when my 2iC has been doing the switch flipping, so I was able to be at the bow, armed with deck wash hose, anticipating weapons grade mud, I have witnessed it actually come up like you describe there, with the shackle down the fluke end, and the minute enough mud slides away from the water motion, it flips forwards with a distinct bucking effect so the shackle zooms back up to the end of the shank with fluke down.

I suspect it is the sticky mud that has made it possible for the shackle to stay down the fluke end of the slot that long. Normally, as you say, it looks in the normal place on coming into view, but I assume the fact it is often (unless after just a quick lunch pick drop, where I don't even bother to set it properly), so hard to budge unless I motor forward over it, that it is the trip mechanism at work. I am quite willing to admit however, that it might in many cases just be the leverage from the shank itself breaking her free. Whatever the explanation, she does not break free without a fight - and I like that.
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Old 10-02-2015, 07:13 AM   #90
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We have to break out our rollbar anchor with the boat's power on occasion. And we've had to back the anchor out a couple of times with the trip line when it was fouled. But most of the time we retrieve the all-chain rode until the boat is directly over the anchor and then put a bit of pressure on the rode against one of the forward deck cleats and the boat's movement in the water is sufficient to work the anchor out of the bottom pretty quickly.

We don't believe in slotted anchor shanks for a couple of reasons (other than on a small fishing anchor where it makes good sense), and so far in our cruising boating have not encountered a situation where a slotted shank would have been beneficial.
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Old 10-02-2015, 08:18 AM   #91
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"I may deliver the anchors to Steve (for submerged experimentation) or work on them myself this winter. Right now I'm scrambling to get things done on boat and around the house before non painting or freezing weather arrives."

Been prepping for the bad weather threatening the east coast for the last couple of days and oh my, what I missed on this thread. The ability of any anchor to be in the penetration position when force (pull) is placed on the rode is due to a number of factors, hopefully researched by the anchor manufacturer, in the anchor design. I would refer to the manufacturer to have them explain then compare this information to your own experiences and what others have experienced. I can only speculate about other anchors from what I read, am told, and experimented on. Know for sure about our anchor's design.

As far as sending me some anchors for "submerged experimentation", I would love to have them. I have quite an inventory of other company's anchors but always looking to add to that collection.
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Old 10-02-2015, 08:37 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Peter B wrote;
"Eric, I always have to tie off and use motor power when directly over the Sarca to engage the trip mechanism to get the thing out no matter what unless on pure shingle or over rocks."

I think this is very interesting. VERY INTERESTING.

Most of the time I don't even notice when the slack is gone and I'm lifting the anchor off the bottom. And I use various anchors.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
Without regard to slots, our normal is having to use the engines, and usually a 180-degree turn-around once the rode leads straight up from the anchor. That's with SuperMAX and Fortress. Not so often with the Deltas we used at one time...

Thought more about this. When I say "our normal" I mean pretty much "always."

If you can't tell when the anchors are breaking out... perhaps they aren't really setting deeply in the first place?

Can it be maybe some combination of your boat mass, engine power, anchor weight and design, substrate make-up... whatever... that is prohibiting your anchors from deeply setting?

Just pondering...

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Old 10-02-2015, 10:12 AM   #93
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"Can it be maybe some combination of your boat mass, engine power, anchor weight and design, substrate make-up... whatever... that is prohibiting your anchors from deeply setting?"

All of the above and then some. Generally, anchor manufactures have their recommendations for proper setting, however, there are more commonalities than differences from other techniques. That being said, I recommend following the manufacturer's procedure. Some anchors are not deep setting so you may never get a deep set. Other's say they are but experience and documentation counter's the deep setting claim. To that, I am not willing to say an anchor is not what it claims as a deep setting by design. I would look at some of the other variables you listed above, including technique. Only after I am sure I have accurately accounted for the variables including using the recommendations of the manufacturer would I dispute the claim.

I know I have a set at about 3:1 scope. The more I pull with the engines, the deeper I dig. On Monday, I was on a cove off Indian Creek off the Chesapeake in Virginia. I was in mud (typical for this area) and a stiff breeze was blowing and was predicted to continue overnight. Put some extra rpms on the set and again about 6:1. Paid the price in the morning trying to get it up with significant seabed, including a large rock, piled on the fluke and covering the shank, and much of the first few feet of chain. Eventually came up. Guess I should take some pics next time that happens.
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Old 10-02-2015, 10:29 AM   #94
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Chris,
I can readily see why you would think my anchors aren't set very good. If they are easy to pluck out. My engine is only 40hp driving an 18" prop through a 2.57-1 BW gear so not much thrust availible .... and I use little of what I have as I back down w 1200 to 1400rpm and I'm not overpropped. That's the great think about TF. We would all think what we did was normal unless we knew otherwise. My anchors are relatively small though. But I'm inclined to think I've set them enough though as I've never dragged. When I was quite young and first heard of setting anchors I thought it was dumb. Any fool can see that any good anchor will set by itself as that is what anchors are designed to do. I ran OB cruisers then a little less that 20' and light plywood.
And basically what we're doing by setting is testing the bottom .. not the anchor.
And Chris if the wind blows my anchors will get set harder and all the experts say slowly setting anchors is the most effective way.
I'm trying to decide if I'm setting too light and having trouble getting my head around that. They may dig deeper if I set them harder but sometimes certian anchors break out during setting that hold fiercely if set again.
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Old 10-02-2015, 10:49 AM   #95
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Steve Bedford,
I'm sorry my "experimentation" comment was actually directed at Steve that took the videos a short time ago. At this point I'm not sure I'm going to part w them at all. Sometimes it takes a very long time to sell a boat. And before I send them to Steve ... (username panhope I think) I want to weld some appendages on.

Re your Max it has a big fluke that promises lots of holding power but a big "T" shaped shank that is very strong due to it's T shape but presenting lots of drag against penetration but w the big fluke maybe not much penetration will/would be necessary. But it needs the strong T shape as it's got to manhandle that big wide fluke, It's all Ballance and trade and just when you think you've figured it out the bottom isn't like the sandbox at the boat show and a hard layer is only 4" down. Then any anchor isn't going to do much other than buldozing.
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Old 10-02-2015, 11:06 AM   #96
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Marin,
You love to say "all chain rode". And now that we're not arguing about chain v/s line it has a certian ring to it.

It's interesting that you've had to use your trip line several times. Paid for itself then! I gave up on the trip line. Hate to admit it but it's just too much work and another variable to deal with.

You may not "belive in them" but lots of people do believe in them and have used them successfully .. slotted shank anchors. But the attach place/point for trip lines on most anchors (that have them) is in a far better location for anchor extraction than the end of the slot .. At the heavy end of the anchor. So IMO is reversed extraction needs to be employed using the trip line could very likely work whereas the slot would not. Probably would seldom happen but when it does your trip line would likely be better at getting your anchor back.
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Old 10-02-2015, 11:44 AM   #97
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"Steve Bedford, I'm sorry my "experimentation" comment was actually directed at Steve that took the videos a short time ago. At this point I'm not sure I'm going to part w them at all. Sometimes it takes a very long time to sell a boat. And before I send them to Steve ... (username panhope I think) I want to weld some appendages on."

Just messing with you anyway. Never thought you would part with them.

"And Chris if the wind blows my anchors will get set harder and all the experts say slowly setting anchors is the most effective way."

Absolutely. Another reason that one has to be careful about "mass-testing" anchors.

"Re your Max it has a big fluke that promises lots of holding power but a big "T" shaped shank that is very strong due to it's T shape but presenting lots of drag against penetration but w the big fluke maybe not much penetration will/would be necessary. But it needs the strong T shape as it's got to manhandle that big wide fluke, It's all Ballance and trade and just when you think you've figured it out the bottom isn't like the sandbox at the boat show and a hard layer is only 4" down. Then any anchor isn't going to do much other than buldozing."

Well said. The "T" shape is indeed stronger than an "l" (there are other shapes that are even stronger including "I" and "0" among others) but there are indeed compromises. A lot goes in to steel strength, width, thickness, length of shanks and shank components. Based on the amount of seabed on top of my shank, the "T" does not appear to interfere with deep penetration.
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Old 10-02-2015, 11:47 AM   #98
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Peter.
Interesting about the mud and the SARCA coming up backwards but it's dependant on the mud.

Something very interesting has occurred to me as we were talking about shank lengths.
The early XYZ has a fluke very much like the SARCA. Go to <xyzanchor.com> and then to "company" and then to "images". Go three more over to the right and one down (hope I remember it correctly) and you'll see a picture of the old XYZ anchor. Put a SARCA shank and roll bar on it and it's close to a dupe of the SARCA. So the big difference is the shank and roll bar. The XYZ uses a horn instead of the roll bar but much more importantly the shank is much the same. Just very small on the XYZ and long and tall on the SARCA. and then another interesting comparison comes to mind. Your SARCA shank is the same shape as the Claw. And the Claws shank is a good shape as the bottom dosn't get a chance to lift the anchor w fwd motion like most anchors untill the anchor is 5 to 7" down in the seabed. But the Claw shank is big and heavy .. most likely over 50% of the anchors weight. It has often been said that the Claw lacks fluke surface area. But the fluke goes quickly to a usable depth.
But the shank length is important in every design. And if you can have a short shank and it does it's job it can be made of lighter materials and is smaller in the first place so all that weight saved goes into the fluke where it will do the most good. And if ballast isn't needed one can get sorta close to an all fluke anchor. That's what the XYZ is .... the closest thing to an all fluke anchor. So it is extreme .. as advertised.
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Old 10-02-2015, 01:33 PM   #99
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So the Admiral and I took the boat out this past weekend to practice anchoring. We have a new Rocna 77Lb anchor with 550 ft of chain. When we went out there was a good steady wind and max river flow. We figured this would be pretty close what we would face next year on the inside passage.


My windlass is electric and I can operate it from 3 stations, bow, fly bridge and salon station. The Admiral's station is on the bow and mine is on the fly bridge. We also switched duties so we could experience both stations. We found the following:
  • The quick release clutch was stuck. I greased the fittings and backed down on the clutch and broke it free.
  • The Rocna set each and every time.
  • When retrieved, we found the anchor would be twisted and comes up to the bow pulpit backwards. I reach down and twist the chain a 1/4 turn and then the anchor aligns. Rocna recommends not to use a swivel, but.....
  • We found out the Admiral has problems pushing over the chain cone in the chain locker. So this will be my duty.
  • Washdown is very important.
  • The harness a friend made for us to take the pressure off the windlass works great!
  • Keep an eye on the anchor pin as it is attached by a cheap chain and can be knocked into the water.
Still learning and practicing as we will be anchoring 90% of the time.
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Old 10-02-2015, 02:10 PM   #100
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Chris,
I can readily see why you would think my anchors aren't set very good. If they are easy to pluck out. My engine is only 40hp driving an 18" prop through a 2.57-1 BW gear so not much thrust availible .... and I use little of what I have as I back down w 1200 to 1400rpm and I'm not overpropped. That's the great think about TF. We would all think what we did was normal unless we knew otherwise. My anchors are relatively small though. But I'm inclined to think I've set them enough though as I've never dragged.

And Chris if the wind blows my anchors will get set harder and all the experts say slowly setting anchors is the most effective way.
I'm trying to decide if I'm setting too light and having trouble getting my head around that. They may dig deeper if I set them harder but sometimes certian anchors break out during setting that hold fiercely if set again.

Wasn't really trying to second-guess you experience; just seems we mostly have to work a lot to break an anchor free, and if you don't... seems something in there is different from what happens to us. Whatever (how ever many whatevers) that could be. Certainly we have more horsepower, and wifey isn't afraid to use it when we're anchoring!

Well, to a certain extent, anyway. No violent throttle action.... but we do allow the engines to do some work for us.






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Steve Bedford,
Re your Max it has a big fluke that promises lots of holding power but a big "T" shaped shank that is very strong due to it's T shape but presenting lots of drag against penetration but w the big fluke maybe not much penetration will/would be necessary.

I think I've not seen any reluctance for the T-shaped shank to bury. Would guess it would have more resistance if it were an I-shape. But I don't have any way to compare against something else...

-Chris
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