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Old 09-28-2015, 12:12 PM   #41
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Chris,
Every pound of ballast is weight (metal) that could otherwise be used for increasing the size of the fluke. Ideally speaking the highest holding power would be achieved w an anchor that was 100% fluke. But the fluke needs to be controled and provide attachment to the boat. There are some anchors that don't require specific oreintation like a mushroom anchor and mostly a Bulwagga and of course the Danforth has two options. But most modern anchors require some element of their design directed to bring them to one or two specific orentations ... or one could say right side up.

The Rocna employs it's roll bar and the Vulcan uses the trailing edge of it's fluke, the shape of it's shank .. and ballast weight under the fluke tip to right the anchor to it's setting position .. one of two or possibly three under certian conditions. The Manson Boss uses it's shank shape and the trailing edge of it's fluke to right itself. But Rocna didn't (appearently) think the Vulcan would right itself consistantly enough w just the special shape of the shank and fluke trailing edge so they gave it a ballast chamber .. probably filled w lead like the Delta and CQR and Spade. The Spade has been a very good anchor but many anchors w/o the ballast chamber have done even better .. like the Rocna. The wedge could be 5 to 8 square inches (depending on anchor size) and that requires some force to push into the sea bottom. Not exactly a knife like shape. So without the ballast chamber the Vulcan could assumabily penetrate considerably further into the seabed greatly increasing holding power. Remember the small anchor in the Chesapeake Bay test by Fortress? The small anchor penetrated deeper and was much harder to extract. That's basically it ... and then a bit.
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Old 09-28-2015, 12:17 PM   #42
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Chris,
Every pound of ballast is weight (metal) that could otherwise be used for increasing the size of the fluke.

But why would ballast weight interfere with just increasing the fluke size anyway?

-Chris
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Old 09-28-2015, 09:07 PM   #43
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Chris,
Whith that philosophy any anchor can be made to perform at any level of performance providing the anchor will set.

If one is to say an anchor has "X" amount of holding power it's meaningless unless it's compared to it's weight or/and size. Everyone wants an anchor of minimal size and weight so it's a game of performance per pound and size. My 33lb Claw I feel has adequate performance but why should I use that big heavy thing if an anchor half the weight and size will do the same job? The Claw now will hold the boat (I think) on basically any kind of bottom. I could use a very high performance anchor of only 15lbs. I used a 13lb early XYZ anchor for a day and a half in Alison Harbour near QC Sound in a 50 knot gale. The boat sailed back and forth jerking the rode for hours and we didn't move. But the anchor refused to set more often than it did. When it did it held. My Claw will probably hold too but it weighs about 2.5 times as much. I've chosen .... at least temporally ... to use a low performance anchor because it's flexability is great. Extremely good short scope performance, very convenient bow storage, super low purchasing cost and availability plus being way above average in looks.

You can pick the highest performance anchor you know of and exceed it's performance with a low performance anchor just by increasing the weight of whatever low performance (per pound) anchor you choose. Choose a Navy or a Dreadnought anchor and it will be very heavy but if heavy enough the performance will be great. Or if having a very small and lightweight anchor is important your choice will be much more demanding and you may spend more even for a small anchor. Or if you're paranoid there's always the option of super big and super high performance.
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Old 09-28-2015, 11:28 PM   #44
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Yes, we have a Boss.

As of today, so do we!

The original plan was to sell the 60lb Supreme (accomplished) and go with a larger Supreme- then modify the anchor roller so the Supreme would fit properly into the roller slot.

After many hours of research, we opted for the Boss instead. Test results as we get them.....
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Old 09-29-2015, 12:08 AM   #45
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As of today, so do we!

The original plan was to sell the 60lb Supreme (accomplished) and go with a larger Supreme- then modify the anchor roller so the Supreme would fit properly into the roller slot.

After many hours of research, we opted for the Boss instead. Test results as we get them.....
Sweet, looking forward to your reviews!
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Old 09-29-2015, 12:18 AM   #46
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I'm sold on the Supreme, and all research leads me
To believe that the Boss will perform just as well.
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Old 09-29-2015, 05:30 AM   #47
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Chris,
........ Ideally speaking the highest holding power would be achieved w an anchor that was 100% fluke. But the fluke needs to be controled and provide attachment to the boat.
Eric, there is another issue which one needs to consider. with anchor holding power. It is possible for there to be too much. Apart from the fact they have to be attached to the rode in some way, it needs to be remembered there is another important function of the shank. That being as a lever to help prise it out of the bottom, when one wants to leave the anchorage. Putting it another way, your entirely fluke based anchor, even if possible to make one such that it would actually set, (an issue you have already described as being a problem with the XYZ, which comes close to almost being a fluke only anchor), there would be huge problems trying to up-anchor as it could bury itself so completely one would have to apply enormous force to break it out. Something which actually proved to be the case with the small fortress anchors in that recent anchor comparison done by Fortress, as they do bury quite deeply. Fortunately they do have a shank to lever them up with. I think the only problem worse than an anchor that is hard to set and does not hold all that well would be one that just won't let go when you need it to.
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Old 09-29-2015, 08:14 AM   #48
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But why would ballast weight interfere with just increasing the fluke size anyway?

-Chris
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Chris,
Whith that philosophy any anchor can be made to perform at any level of performance providing the anchor will set.

Everyone wants an anchor of minimal size and weight so it's a game of performance per pound and size.

Ah. I didn't understand your original premise prohibited adding to overall weight.

Have to admit I probably don't fall completely into that "Everyone wants..." category. There's a limit to dead weight I'm willing (or able) to lift manually, but up to that limit, that's what our electric windlass is for. Given that, I look for the biggest honker I can find at (up to) that weight that will fit our pulpit, has a good track record for our typical substrate, etc.



-Chris
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Old 09-29-2015, 08:35 AM   #49
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Eric, there is another issue which one needs to consider. with anchor holding power. It is possible for there to be too much. Apart from the fact they have to be attached to the rode in some way, it needs to be remembered there is another important function of the shank. That being as a lever to help prise it out of the bottom, when one wants to leave the anchorage. Putting it another way, your entirely fluke based anchor, even if possible to make one such that it would actually set, (an issue you have already described as being a problem with the XYZ, which comes close to almost being a fluke only anchor), there would be huge problems trying to up-anchor as it could bury itself so completely one would have to apply enormous force to break it out. Something which actually proved to be the case with the small fortress anchors in that recent anchor comparison done by Fortress, as they do bury quite deeply. Fortunately they do have a shank to lever them up with. I think the only problem worse than an anchor that is hard to set and does not hold all that well would be one that just won't let go when you need it to.
Peter - Complete inability to break loose an anchor for retrieval would be bummer for sure... however:

I feel a small (probably much less expensive) bummer compared to an anchor dragging and boat landing on the rocks in middle of night. In decades of boating I've only had to cut loose two anchors (both Danthforth designs). One was our own Danforth in Block Island mid 1960's, and, one was another boat's in SF Delta 2012. Both seemed to have been caught on cable or other item; after hours of trying to get each free the "cut-it" decision was made.

That said... from Parks marine store (avatar - HopCar) this spring we purchased a brand new Fortress FX-23 for setting/holding in the silty/gummy-mud bottom of SF Delta. Although life problems limited our 2015 boating opportunities we have had chance to use it four times. It is by far and away the best I’ve encountered for setting and holding in SF Delta mud bottom. Then comes the time of retrieval! So far so good. Each task of breaking loose out of bottom has needed to be accomplished by rode being straight down off boat cleat and breaking loose by engine power; windless and hand power have been unable to accomplish what’s needed. The FX-23 always comes up with Really BIG Gob of mud… showing how great it sets… which is exactly why we purchased it. But, I must admit that Fortress’ deep-setting capabilities have made me wonder if it could ever get set so deep that standard means of retrieval might become a problem. Due to close quarters with passing boats, where we anchor there is no room for anchor buoy. I’ve had some interesting things happen with our Fortress and plan to post a descriptive thread about the FX-23 after several more anchor-outs have been accomplished.

Happy Anchoring Daze! – Art
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Old 09-29-2015, 11:01 AM   #50
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Chris,
Most everybody here has power winches so using a double size anchor has little downside. All chain rode carries 2 to 3 times as much weight penalty as a double size anchor. Lots of skippers feel the chain weight is trivial so a bigger anchor should work fine. But the "biggest honker you could find" would sink your boat bow first ... dramatically. But doubling the recomended anchor size would probably add less than 100lbs to a typical boat here. You probably haven't even dated a girl weighing less than 100 lbs. adding 75lbs to a boat as large as yours wouldn't be significant. And adding weight unessasairly to a boat is something I've condemed regularly here.

So the option of a big anchor is open to everyone w a power winch and the performance that goes w it. With the extra weight any of the old anchors will probably have excellent performance.

But the newer anchors are very popular here and it's mostly a case of needing the "right stuff". If your a skier you sport a certian kind of skis. If you are a sports car buff it's a certian brand of tires that's in .. or cool. Kool in our culture carries a lot of weight. That's the big reason skippers here buy new style anchors. It shows they are knowledeable, selective and don't use just any ordinary anchor. Not very objective but frequently it's not objectivity that makes the world go around. If anchors were traditionally stowed in the bilge far fewer new anchors would be sold.


Peter B,
I said setting was a problem w the early XYZ. And it was. No such problem w w the later XYZ's. I think you didn't read carefully or made assumptions out of thin air. Also both of the XYZ's I've had come up out of the bottom easily.
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Old 09-29-2015, 11:39 AM   #51
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Last year we upgraded our anchoring system with a 77lb Rocna and 550' of BBB chain. This past weekend the Admiral and I took the boat out to practice anchoring. The conditions were heavy current (Columbia River) with a opposite wind about 10mph.


It was good practice so we could try out each others duties. We did find out that she has difficulty pushing over the chain cone. I also don't have a swivel on the anchor as recommended by the manufacture. I did have to twist the chain about a quarter turn in order to bring the anchor into the pulpit.


Next year when we are in the Inside Passage, we will be anchoring 90% of the time.
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Old 09-29-2015, 01:04 PM   #52
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I just received a 35# Manson Boss that I ordered from Amazon. The price was too good to pass up- $224 including shipping if you have Amazon Prime. That is almost $150 cheaper than Defender.

When it arrived I was floored. It was huge, probably twice the surface area of the 35# Bruce that it will replace. I was sure that they shipped a 50# anchor by mistake. But I weighed it (and me) and it came out 35#. Like the roll bar Manson Supreme it has a weighted point, but it also has those funny winglets.

I think that the winglets let it start digging in if it lands on its side, then it rotates upright so both flukes will continue digging. I am looking forward to seeing how it performs. I had a pre China Rocna that dug in like it was tunneling to China. I was always amazed at how much ocean floor I pulled up with it.

I will report on how the Boss works in practice, but I bet it digs like the old Rocna.

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Old 09-29-2015, 01:07 PM   #53
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We got rid of our swivel years ago, and when we bought our Rocna back in 2006 or 7 the folks I talked to at Rocna in New Zealand did not recommend using a swivel. They didn't say not to, only that it wasnt needed and if we didn't need one to align the anchor when it came back aboard we'd be better off without one, which we'd already determined which is why we'd long since gotten rid of ours.

We have never had an issue with anchor alignment on retreival since the wildcat always aligns the chain the same way wich in turn always aligns the anchor the same way.

They also told me, as did the instruction sheet that came with our new anchor, to use all-chan rode and anchor with a minimum scope ratio of 5:1 and more was better if conditions warranted.

I have no idea what the current owner of the Rocna brand recommends today.
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Old 09-29-2015, 01:21 PM   #54
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We got rid of our swivel years ago, and when we bought our Rocna back in 2006 or 7 the folks I talked to at Rocna in New Zealand did not recommend using a swivel. They didn't say not to, only that it wasnt needed and if we didn't need one to align the anchor when it came back aboard we'd be better off without one, which we'd already determined which is why we'd long since gotten rid of ours.

We have never had an issue with anchor alignment on retreival since the wildcat always aligns the chain the same way wich in turn always aligns the anchor the same way.

They also told me, as did the instruction sheet that came with our new anchor, to use all-chan rode and anchor with a minimum scope ratio of 5:1 and more was better if conditions warranted.

I have no idea what the current owner of the Rocna brand recommends today.
Still the same. When the anchor came up it was backwards to the roller and I had to "twist" the chain about a 1/4 turn to get it the right way.
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Old 09-29-2015, 01:31 PM   #55
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I just received a 35# Manson Boss that I ordered from Amazon. The price was too good to pass up- $224 including shipping if you have Amazon Prime. That is almost $150 cheaper than Defender.

When it arrived I was floored. It was huge, probably twice the surface area of the 35# Bruce that it will replace. I was sure that they shipped a 50# anchor by mistake. But I weighed it (and me) and it came out 35#. Like the roll bar Manson Supreme it has a weighted point, but it also has those funny winglets.

I think that the winglets let it start digging in if it lands on its side, then it rotates upright so both flukes will continue digging. I am looking forward to seeing how it performs. I had a pre China Rocna that dug in like it was tunneling to China. I was always amazed at how much ocean floor I pulled up with it.

I will report on how the Boss works in practice, but I bet it digs like the old Rocna.

David
David, I like the Manson Boss and toyed with the idea of putting it on the bow of Moonstruck. My conception of the purpose of the winglets is to right the anchor similar to a roll bar. I think it could do this without the tendency to collect rocks. Please let us know you results with it.
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Old 09-29-2015, 03:39 PM   #56
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David,
I picked up a Manson Boss at a boat show and thought it was light. Re your comments about it's size it could be the lightest anchor per surface area out there. And since it's slightly concave it's holding power should be excellent.
My 15lb Supreme was actually 18lbs and I wondered if other Manson anchors were heavier than their advertised weight. Sounds like the Boss weighs as advertised.

What happened to your Rocna?
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Old 09-29-2015, 03:52 PM   #57
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Peter B,
Re your heads up on the issue of extraction there was such a problem in the Cheasapeke Bay test and the anchor having the problem was a Fortress. I suspect that using it in the wide throat opening position probably caused the difficult extraction. Obviously extracting the anchor w no throat opening at all would seem very easy. And a throat angle of close to 90 degrees would be impossible at times.
Due to the roll bar's position roll bar anchors should be harder to extract than most others.

Do you have problems w your SARCA ?
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Old 09-29-2015, 06:49 PM   #58
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Re my last sentence ...
I think I mucked up. The roll bar should pitch the anchor more straight up and other than the drag the roll bar presents it should be an asset to extraction. Not as I said. I thought about this as I was painting the deck in the fore cabin and salon today. Don't know what I was think'in.
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Old 09-29-2015, 07:50 PM   #59
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The problem Peter raises about breaking out a well set anchor may be overcome by an anchor with a sliding slot in the shank attachment, so that the pull comes close to the flukes and not at the far end of the shank.
(That should get the hares running .)
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Old 09-29-2015, 08:17 PM   #60
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The problem Peter raises about breaking out a well set anchor may be overcome by an anchor with a sliding slot in the shank attachment, so that the pull comes close to the flukes and not at the far end of the shank.
(That should get the hares running .)
And if you're anchored for anything over a half day or more in tidal waters, what do you predict when the tidal current reverses?
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