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Old 09-25-2015, 08:26 AM   #21
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"The only anchor that stands a chance at out doing the Rocna's 5-1 to 7-1 scope performance is the XYZ Extreme. But it hasn't been tested."

I believe there are other anchor models that can meet that performance besides the XYZ Extreme.

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Old 09-25-2015, 09:55 AM   #22
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Steve Bedford,
The Fortress and ........?
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Old 09-25-2015, 10:16 AM   #23
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For one, the Super MAX.
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Old 09-25-2015, 11:11 AM   #24
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I did purchase a 16lb (IIRC) Vulcan from HopCar for use on my 24ft bay boat for a fish anchor to replace a Danforth clone that was totally unreliable...actually I could rely upon it to NOT set 9/10 times. I had enough of that BS last year and laid down the dough for the Vulcan. To give a background on my experience I have used Fortress/Bruce original/CQR anchors on boats from 26-53 feet and have never had to reset an anchor more than twice in 40+ years until I bought this boat and it's lame excuse for an anchor so I don't think it was operator error....but that is only MY opinion. Anyway...the instructions on the Vulcan warn against a hard backing to set the anchor as it's sudden set will cause an abrupt bow swing and possible damage to gear...yeah....right...good marketing talk for sure. Well....when this bugger sets there is no doubt and it will swing the bow hard enough at the set to throw one off the fore deck (ask my pop...and I warned him in davance!). I am very impressed at the ease of set. I was able to find well heads in 25-30 ft of water (the size of a VW Beetle), determine my drift on the plotter and pull, drop my gear and be able to have the darn well head underneath my transducer and ready to drop bait in minutes. They claim it will set in about twice it's length...I believe it.
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Old 09-25-2015, 02:31 PM   #25
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Rardoin,
I had an anchor that set hard like that. Was amazing. But that one did'nt set at all much of the time. Actually it's setting performance was so poor I sent it to the landfill. It was 13lbs and held my 30' boat in a Gale for a day and a half though. But a slam type initial set dosn't mean it's a great anchor.

Actually the best setting anchor I've experienced set so fast there was no setting. When I started to back down the line went straight tight instantly. Like someone bolted it to a D-8 Cat while I was letting out the rode. The anchor was a Dreadnought. A bit like a Navy anchor but w a much longer shank. I see them only on fish boats in SE Alaska.
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Old 09-25-2015, 02:45 PM   #26
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I called Ken's Marine in Gulfport yesterday and talked with Eric about some SS chain. A sailboater in our pier was installing some the other day he had purchased there and attaching it to his new FX23. Nice bling..
So anyway..
The 3/8 BBB we use was much bigger size than anything in stock SS- and looks to be way out of my budget anyway. He asked about the application and I explained about my 44 Delta coming loose and how I'm setting up with my FX-37.
His first comment to me was that I would have trouble getting it to set- but once the Fortress "bit" I should be fine. Interesting statement from a young guy at a hardware store- but I bet it has some merit because Ken's caters to the work boats. He then expressed suprise that the Delta didn't hold. According to him- most of the shrimping fleet is sold on "plow type" anchors. The best choice for the bottom terrain in our area.
Just thought I would share that. It's not what I expected to hear.


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Old 09-25-2015, 02:45 PM   #27
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Steve Bedford,
I have anchor tests bookmarked that don't support that. My computer crashed though so I can't post them. The collective experience expressed here on TF is very spotty on the Max. Some consider it a mud anchor. But to say most bottoms are mud isn't so far fetched. I remember at least one guy from years past that thought the Super Max was great. Also it seems sensitive to the throat angle that is adjustable on one model and the fact that they offer the adjustable model may speak to that. Basically I don't think there's enough objective knowledge to make that call Steve. What can you offer in that regard?
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Old 09-25-2015, 02:58 PM   #28
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We have a Fortress FX23 as a stern anchor that can serve as the main anchor for the boat if we want to use that type of anchor. It is an excellent anchor, but like most of them it drags along the bottom for awhile until a fluke digs in and then it sets. Our Bruce was the same way and it seems most "conventional" anchors work this way, too. What I call the drop, drag, and hope method of setting.

There's nothing wrong with this and most of the time our old Bruce and the Fortress didn't/don't go very far before they hook in and set. Sometimes, however, the Bruce slid along so far we had to pull it up off the bottom and move forward again for another try.

So far we have never experienced this with the rollbar anchor. It just sets as soon as we start pulling on it. No dragging along the bottom at all.

The Bruce, Fortress, and rollbar anchor are the only ones we've used so I can't compare them with direct experience to any other type. There very well may be non-rollbar anchors out there that pound for pound, size for size consistently set as fast and solidly as a rollbar anchor but other than rardoin's post above about his Vulcan I've not read or heard any actual user testimonials to this end.
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Old 09-26-2015, 10:48 AM   #29
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"Steve, what can you offer in that regard?"

I want to disclose that I have a business interest in Super MAX and I will not discredit the performance of another anchor nor their company. I got into this business because I love to anchor and I want to see more boaters choose the anchoring option. I want boaters to have an anchor and complete ground tackle system they are confident in and rely upon. All I hope is that when folks do their research on anchors, we are in the conversation. If that happens, I am confident in the performance of our anchor. However, to each his own. I, of course, will promote the performance of the Super MAX and I believe our success will continue to grow as more and more find out for themselves how successful it sets, holds and keeps you safe.

"Some consider it a mud anchor."

That can be fair or unfair. Soft mud and ooze are perhaps two of the most difficult seabeds to get an anchor to set and hold in. So if the Super MAX is considered a mud anchor, that is good that it holds in these difficult seabeds. However, to think that the Super MAX does not work in firmer seabeds is not accurate. The design of the fluke, the sharp fluke points of seabed entry, the fluke/shank/weight distribution design puts the anchor at rest on the seabed in the attack portion so the first pull on the rode starts the seabed penetration process. The pivoting arm Super MAX can be adjusted from a narrow angle sand setting, similar to other anchors that are designed primarily for sand. However, the operator also has the ability to adjust the fluke-to-shank setting to a medium angle for a mud setting or to the 45 degree setting for the very soft mud or ooze setting. Therefore, the large fluke area of the Super MAX works well in mud but equally well in other seabeds.

The CQR, Delta, and Bruce were excellent anchors in their day and they were state of the art when first introduced. Their design has been examined and used in the development of the new generation anchors of today. The new generation anchors have evolved from these prior designs and that is good. New generation anchors are a little misleading because these anchors are not "new" (meaning a couple years old). Many of these designs are a few decades old so not so new. However, the Super MAX, ROCNA, Manson Supreme, Ultra, to name a few, have some similarities in common that the older anchor designs to not:
1. Larger fluke area
2. Self righting for the seabed attack position
3. Flat or concave fluke design rather than designs such as the "plow convex" design.
4. Shank designs that promote deep penetration into the seabed rather than inhibiting penetration.
5. Use of higher yield steel than in prior designs.
6. Fluke points that are designed for immediate seabed penetration at the initial moment of pull.

The use of any of the above mentioned "new generation anchors" will generally provide a stronger and more consistent hold and a deeper penetration into the seabeds they were designed to perform in than the more traditional models. Each anchor has its strengths. If you match the strength of that anchor with the areas you will anchor in, set it correctly according to the manufacture, and lay out the proper scope for the depth/seabed/weather conditions, you should be pleased and satisfied with your anchor selection decision. A key here is setting correctly. No anchor, regardless of their "performance rating" will function even adequately if not set properly. Among the anchors I listed above, I believe a "less than satisfactory performance" of any anchor has more to do with operator decisions than on anchor design.

A live aboard on a "sail assisted trawler" who is known by many on various email list-serves has repeatedly stated that it does not matter if your anchor can "beat" another anchor. He states, "the only thing you need is to have your anchor and ground tackle beat Mother Nature." If one anchor is reportedly better than another and when they are deployed and a storm kicks up producing conditions greater than either can hold, I would say neither is better than the other. There are so many factors that come into play in assessing an anchor's performance:
1. Ease of setting and the ability to set firmly and quickly.
2. Ability to have deep penetration into the seabed without anything to interfere with the penetration.
3. Knowing the consistency of the seabed and planning accordingly and appropriately.
4. Greater protection from significant winds and currents.
5. Oversize. Some anchor manufacturers under-estimate the size anchor needed to properly outfit a boat. I recommend the largest anchor your boat, bow roller, and wallet can afford. I have never heard of an anchor dragging or slipping or breaking free because it was to big!
6. Anchorage geographic characteristics.

Books have been written on this and I have no desire to repeat others. My final statement is that the Super MAX, along with a number of other anchors listed above, can provide a safe, secure anchor experience if the anchoring process is done correctly and proper sizing is used. I certainly hope that folks will choose Super MAX anchors but I made a commitment when I purchased this company that I was not going to bash another company's anchor and only promote the benefits of our anchor for the customer to choose from. There are testimonials from actual users of the Super MAX that speak to its performance and all are encouraged to read these. I have recently sold anchors to boaters who had competitor's models and are now very satisfied and loyal to the Super MAX. I choose not to publicize the reasons these folks gave for their dissatisfaction with another anchor. I do not know if these are accurate or not. I suspect that is had more to do with operator decisions rather than anchor designs. I help my customers maximize the effectiveness of the Super MAX and I stand behind them with support and advice long after they make their purchase.


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Old 09-26-2015, 11:58 AM   #30
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Quite an offering indeed.

Good copy and well said. I would like to say though that there's no such thing as "new generation" anchors. There's new, old, newish, "from the 50's" ect ect. New generation anchors is an expression of elevated advertising hype. Anchors don't have generations nor do they reproduce but evolutionary evidence of relatedness can be found in their features.

Testimonials have their limits .. mostly to setting performance that is primary and should not be made light of. I recall from one anchor test that a 35lb Manson Supreme held fast at 3-1 scope under a tension load of over 4000lbs. That is a supreme level of performance that will almost never be experienced by a skipper w his boat. Ultimate holding power can only be tested w big heavy equipment that we boaters don't have. However the degree of objectivity in anchor tests varies quite a bit.

So anchor chosing should'nt be made by tests only or dock talk but from years of varied input from many sources.
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Old 09-27-2015, 08:09 AM   #31
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Thanks Eric. You are correct about new generation but that is the term that is typically used. Both tests and testimonials have their place and function. Typically for boaters, a testimonial or review is more similar to their practical use of the product. I suggest folks weigh the information from both and decide what it best for their use.
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Old 09-27-2015, 09:54 AM   #32
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When anchor designs and visual looks rely on the "eye candy" and "ohhh that's new" syndrome... their meaning for purpose got lost. Buy a Fortress... set anchor (correctly)... be safe... enjoy boating!

On scale of 1 to 10 for importance of functionality aboard boat... the anchor rates 9.99. Unless of course the boat is a dock queen or just takes short day cruises and seldom if ever anchors out. Then the $1000 + shined, gleaming, protruding bow anchor might be felt important to have... for some... but not for me!
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Old 09-27-2015, 11:15 AM   #33
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Here are both of them. To me, while there are similarities, notably the relatively short, curved shanks, they are quite different in their fluke designs. It would appear that for a given size, the Vulcan has the greater fluke area, which I think is a plus. I'm not sure what the Cadillac fins on the Boss bring to its function but I assume they contribute something, at least in theory.

I'm not going to speculate on how well they perform based on a couple of photos, and while I've seen several boats in this area with Vulcans I've not talked to anyone who's used one. I've never seen a Boss at all.

Marin,
"Short shank"? I don't think so. The Bugle has a short shank because it goes straight from attach point to attach point and as far as I know the XYZ has the shortest. The XYZ is closest to being all fluke. But the Boss and Vulcan would be typical (in length) if they wern't so curved. The curve of the Boss and the Vulcan shanks is the substitute for the silly roll bar. Most likely an excellent trade and the curved shank seems to work as I've heard nothing to the contrary .... considering that the Boss has been on the market for some time now. The curve in the shank makes it longer. It looks like Rocna made the shank w an "I" beam shape (or cross section) to minimize it's weight (because of it's length) and still get the strength needed. The roll bar on the Supreme isn't light and the roll bar on the Rocna probably isn't either. Good trade. And of course now the products fit on many more boats.

I'm very impressed w what I see in the Vulcan now. They even made it slightly above average for the beauty contest. The ugliness of the first Vulcan pics we saw has been put to rest. Looks like a good anchor. But like the XYZ it's not been tested.

Edit;
Now I've got to take back most of my praise for the Vulcan.
Unlike the Boss the Vulcan has a big bulky ballast chamber under the fluke tip. Every pound of ballast weight in that chamber takes away from what otherwise would be fluke size. That should (more importantly) inhibit penetration considerably like it does on all anchors that have that feature. Go to the Rocna web site and look at the pictures there. It's like a big fat Vampite stake. Better buy a Rocna .... or better yet a Manson.
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Old 09-27-2015, 11:44 AM   #34
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Thanks Eric. You are correct about new generation but that is the term that is typically used. Both tests and testimonials have their place and function. Typically for boaters, a testimonial or review is more similar to their practical use of the product. I suggest folks weigh the information from both and decide what it best for their use.
Tests and testimonials become more irrelevant by the day. I could tell you about office towers in China full of kids writing positive and negative product reviews, but I won't.

Couple days ago I was dock walking when I realized Bruce was everywhere. Without actually counting, if I saw 100 boats, 90 of them hand a salty old Bruce hanging on or off the bow.

What did that say?
Bruce is awesome?
Bruce is best in our area?
Owners are stuck in another generation?
Nothing?
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Old 09-27-2015, 12:27 PM   #35
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Bruce is fine but when I go forth w a Claw I join the bigger is better club. Now that I'm through experimenting w anchors (at least temporarily) that's what I fitted to Willy's bow. It's twice as heavy as most all of my other anchors (33lbs) and I think it will perform fine here in Puget Sound.

By the way I've always poo poo'd the "genuine Bruce is best" (re Claws) thinking there could likely be a "clone" that is an improvement on the original Claw. I've discovered the Bruce anchors I see on the floats here have sharper flukes. When I bought my Lewmar I sharpened all three flukes w considerable grinding. The Bruce that is a forged anchor most likely has stronger steel and they can have thinner fluke edges. Those thinner edges may very well have a beneficial effect on setting and penetrating performance. So all the talk about the original being better may be true after all.
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Old 09-27-2015, 12:43 PM   #36
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Bruce is fine but when I go forth w a Claw I join the bigger is better club. Now that I'm through experimenting w anchors (at least temporarily) that's what I fitted to Willy's bow. It's twice as heavy as most all of my other anchors (33lbs) and I think it will perform fine here in Puget Sound.

By the way I've always poo poo'd the "genuine Bruce is best" (re Claws) thinking there could likely be a "clone" that is an improvement on the original Claw. I've discovered the Bruce anchors I see on the floats here have sharper flukes. When I bought my Lewmar I sharpened all three flukes w considerable grinding. The Bruce that is a forged anchor most likely has stronger steel and they can have thinner fluke edges. Those thinner edges may very well have a beneficial effect on setting and penetrating performance. So all the talk about the original being better may be true after all.
I wasn't promoting the Bruce, just stating what I had seen.

In reality, based on the general condition of most of the boats I saw, I'd guess the owners shied away from spending money on their boats in general, much less on the latest greatest anchor. I think they just bought the fad of the day and stayed with it.

Hornsby and Springsteen, now that's a whole other Bruce to get excited about.
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Old 09-27-2015, 01:00 PM   #37
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Hawg--- When you consider that probably 90 percebt of recreational powerboat owners never anchor their boats at all, the type of anchor their boats have is no indication whatsoever of that anchor's effctiveness. The Bruce had a very effective sales effort in this area thanks to a very persuasive distributor (I've met him). And most boaters who don't anchor much or at all tend to stick with whatever anchor came with the boat. In most powerboat cases in this area, that anchor is a Bruce or Bruce knockoff.

There is also a big "I'm going to get what I see other boaters getting" factor in boating. It's why we put a Bruce on our cabin cruiser when we acquired it in 1998. If most other powerboaters have it, it must good, right?

It was only when we started actually using it that we discovered it's not so good.

Like the CQR, the Bruce/knockoff stows well on any type of pulpit or bow mount. The sailboaters I know who have CQRs have told me that the main reason they have one or have stayed wirh one is that it stows so well on the bow of their boat.

However on the sailboats in our part of the harbor I know get used a lot and are anchored a lot I've been seeing more and more rollbar anchors over the last few years. For example the sailboaters who share our finger installed a rollbar anchor some years ago when they were in SFO Bay. They then went off and sailed the southwest Pacific for awhile.

They've told us of times in the open, exposed anchorages there when in high winds they stayed put while almost every other boat in the anchorage with more conventional anchors dragged. Based orn their actual anchoring experience these longtime sailboaters are totally convinced of the rollbar anchor's superiority in almost every anchoring situation one might encounter.
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Old 09-27-2015, 02:05 PM   #38
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Hawg--- When you consider that probably 90 percebt of recreational powerboat owners never anchor their boats at all, the type of anchor their boats have is no indication whatsoever of that anchor's effctiveness. The Bruce had a very effective sales effort in this area thanks to a very persuasive distributor (I've met him). And most boaters who don't anchor much or at all tend to stick with whatever anchor came with the boat. In most powerboat cases in this area, that anchor is a Bruce or Bruce knockoff.

There is also a big "I'm going to get what I see other boaters getting" factor in boating. It's why we put a Bruce on our cabin cruiser when we acquired it in 1998. If most other powerboaters have it, it must good, right?

It was only when we started actually using it that we discovered it's not so good.
Yup and like I said, "I think they just bought the fad of the day and stayed with it."

Now, if I can only figure out how to entice a cormorant to come squat on my arm so I can go fishing.
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Old 09-28-2015, 08:51 AM   #39
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Edit;
Now I've got to take back most of my praise for the Vulcan.
Unlike the Boss the Vulcan has a big bulky ballast chamber under the fluke tip. Every pound of ballast weight in that chamber takes away from what otherwise would be fluke size. That should (more importantly) inhibit penetration considerably like it does on all anchors that have that feature.

Not sure I understand your reasoning there; why would more ballast weight prohibit larger fluke size?

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Old 09-28-2015, 10:31 AM   #40
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Testimonials have their limits...
Yep.

Shoulda used the Danforth for the bow and wrapped the Bruce around a tree. https://youtu.be/nrmD0WxtJAc
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