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Old 10-02-2015, 05:40 PM   #81
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They didn't differentiate between the kinds of people doing the wrong thing. They simply said that when Gore/synthetics are overtightened to the point of running too hot they tend to become brittle and crack. Flax, they said, doesn't do this.

They are NOT saying that this is an excuse to overtighten flax, only that when someone adjusts the nuts incorrectly or fails to monitor or check the packng glands in their boat and they are running too hot, Gore/synthetics are prone to damage and potential failure under conditions that flax will stand up to. And they say they have seen the problems with Gore/synthetics enough to not recommend its use although they will install it if an owner desires.
I find this to be an absolutely amazing claim. I am positive that they have confused GFO with something else entirely.

I am sure that the W.L Gore Company technical reps would be all over this if given an opportunity.

Something is fundamentally wrong.

I still maintain that a small drip is required while running.
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Old 10-02-2015, 09:45 PM   #82
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I
I am sure that the W.L Gore Company technical reps would be all over this if given an opportunity.
I wouldn't know. We don't warranty our airplanes against someone negligently or deliberately flying them into a mountain. Perhaps Gore doesn't concern themselves with people who use their products incorrectly.
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Old 10-02-2015, 11:09 PM   #83
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I find this to be an absolutely amazing claim. I am positive that they have confused GFO with something else entirely.

I am sure that the W.L Gore Company technical reps would be all over this if given an opportunity.

Something is fundamentally wrong.

I still maintain that a small drip is required while running.
I installed the GTU brand from Defender in pressure cooled stuffing boxes last spring. Set them for a slight drip after splashing the boat. Took off on a 11 hour jaunt over to Michigan the next morning. Per the plan I whipped out my $27 Harbor Freight temp detector about ten minutes up the channel at hull speed. Starboard stuffing box was running at about 70 degrees F (water temp was 42). Port side was at 185! Holy crap. Long story short, the port for the cooling hose barb at the heat exchanger was clogged. Fixed it enroute (temp dropped to 70 degrees) and checked the first ring at destination. No obvious issues...no lube stuff dripping from the ring. No leaks sitting in the slip. Nice stuff(ing)., but I wonder how hot it would have gotten at high rpm....

Checking for flow at the stuffing boxes is now on my Spring checklist....and I must remove and descale those heat exchangers.
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Old 10-03-2015, 06:30 AM   #84
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"I still maintain that a small drip is required while running."

Nope , not any more .

The huge advantage to no dripping is silt and sand are not carried into the packing where it will embed and score the shaft.

The good news is the modern stuff will seal an old scored shaft .Harder flax or tefflon usually will not.
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Old 10-03-2015, 09:00 AM   #85
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I had to goggle up the Gore GFO web site to see what they recommend for installing the packing. I have re-packed pump shafts and propeller shafts up to 36" dia., 2 HP up to 50,000 shaft HP. Sure enough you can cut the GFO rings on the pump/propeller shaft or use a mandrel, and they say you will have virtually no leak off. After all GFO is Teflon impregnated with graphite, I may even think to use it one day after the Teflon I used eight years ago to pack my propeller shaft wears out, but I think it will last longer than I will.
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Old 10-03-2015, 09:21 AM   #86
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"I still maintain that a small drip is required while running."

Nope , not any more .
But...doesn't there need to be a supply of fresh oxygenated water (albeit very small) to inhibit corrosion of the stainless steel shaft?
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Old 10-03-2015, 10:29 AM   #87
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to inhibit corrosion of the stainless steel shaft?

I have seen SS bolts 1/2 or more gone , but never a shaft.
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Old 10-03-2015, 10:52 AM   #88
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I had to goggle up the Gore GFO web site...Sure enough you can cut the GFO rings on the pump/propeller shaft...
I didn't say you couldn't use the shaft as a cutting board, I said I wouldn't recommend it.

You, me and a dozen others on here could get away with it but someone could come here for the first time, looking for a how to, read it's ok to use the shaft as an anvil and go at the packing with a hacksaw or chisel.

A two story pump or turbine room where you have your 86 drawer tool chest at your elbow is different from a cramped engine room where people should not be encouraged to improvise.
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Old 10-03-2015, 12:32 PM   #89
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I cut rings in my shaft, but I have a long shaft. I just don't do it near the sealing area or steady bearing area.

Gore is the same material as "Teflon", but expanded as it is made. Hence ePTFE, instead of PTFE. PTFE yarn and ePTFE yarn are very different. The method of making Gore was the differentiation of the patent, which gave them a monopoly for years. People mix it up all the time, from supply chain to the tradesperson. I bet I field a dozen questions a week on gaskets and packing at work, much due to interchange if materials.

And as far as the drip goes, I still maintain you need it. Cooling and pitting. I have detected pitting corrosion on all sorts of various alloys in chloride solution services. I'd prefer not to rework my shaft. Weld metal build up and machining, or sleeving of shafts is expensive, time consuming, and may compromise the integrity of the shaft, if not done properly. I've had many weekends ruined because of repairs not done properly and leaving a teeny tiny stress riser in the shaft repair surface.
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Old 10-03-2015, 12:35 PM   #90
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I didn't say you couldn't use the shaft as a cutting board, I said I wouldn't recommend it.

You, me and a dozen others on here could get away with it but someone could come here for the first time, looking for a how to, read it's ok to use the shaft as an anvil and go at the packing with a hacksaw or chisel.

A two story pump or turbine room where you have your 86 drawer tool chest at your elbow is different from a cramped engine room where people should not be encouraged to improvise.
I see you logic but GFO cuts like butter with a razor blade. Much neasier that flax. And your are cutting it up on the shaft far from where it would be in the box not where it will end up riding on the shaft. So you really can't do any damage to the shaft.
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Old 10-03-2015, 04:08 PM   #91
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Old 10-30-2015, 06:22 PM   #92
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So, ASD will be pulled in two weeks. I understand the repacking proceedures, well almost, but still have a few questions.


Here is what I know so far:
  • Loosed the gland fitting and clean out all the old packing.
  • Inspect the shaft for gouging.
  • Englund Marine tells me to bring in a piece of the old packing and they will know what size I need, but I am still going to do the drill bit procedure.
  • Place the new packing around the shaft to size, cut with very sharp razor blade at a 45 degree angle.
  • Place first seal cut at 12 o'clock and push seal back into the stuffing box using a piece of PVC pipe.
  • Cut the next seal as above, but alien the cut at 6 o'clock
So questions:
  1. How much packing do I use? 3, 4 times or more?
  2. Once packed how do you first adjust the gland? Tight or somewhat snug?
  3. I know you have to have the boat in the water to properly adjust the gland, but do you tighten it until no leaks, then when under way re-adjust with in drip every so many ???? and making sure the shaft stays cool.
  4. I was told that the shaft should leak just a little while underway, but no drips stationary.
Thank you for all the advice. This is my first time doing this, so I will try and take picks too.- Tom
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Old 10-30-2015, 06:34 PM   #93
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So, ASD will be pulled in two weeks. I understand the repacking proceedures, well almost, but still have a few questions.



So questions:
  1. How much packing do I use? 3, 4 times or more?
  2. Once packed how do you first adjust the gland? Tight or somewhat snug?
  3. I know you have to have the boat in the water to properly adjust the gland, but do you tighten it until no leaks, then when under way re-adjust with in drip every so many ???? and making sure the shaft stays cool.
  4. I was told that the shaft should leak just a little while underway, but no drips stationary.
Thank you for all the advice. This is my first time doing this, so I will try and take picks too.- Tom
1) It depends. Count how many rings come out.

2-3) If you are using real GFO pack, which you should be IMO, tighten just till it stops dripping. And then do the final adjustments while you are running. If it starts dripping underway, tighten till it just stops dripping and check the temp of the box at cruising speed with your hand or an IR temp gun

4) With GFO it doesn't have to leak period as long as it's running cool.
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Old 10-30-2015, 06:41 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Alaskan Sea-Duction View Post
So, ASD will be pulled in two weeks. I understand the repacking proceedures, well almost, but still have a few questions.


Here is what I know so far:
  • Loosed the gland fitting and clean out all the old packing.
  • Inspect the shaft for gouging.
  • Englund Marine tells me to bring in a piece of the old packing and they will know what size I need, but I am still going to do the drill bit procedure.
  • Place the new packing around the shaft to size, cut with very sharp razor blade at a 45 degree angle.
  • Place first seal cut at 12 o'clock and push seal back into the stuffing box using a piece of PVC pipe.
  • Cut the next seal as above, but alien the cut at 6 o'clock
So questions:
  1. How much packing do I use? 3, 4 times or more?
  2. Once packed how do you first adjust the gland? Tight or somewhat snug?
  3. I know you have to have the boat in the water to properly adjust the gland, but do you tighten it until no leaks, then when under way re-adjust with in drip every so many ???? and making sure the shaft stays cool.
  4. I was told that the shaft should leak just a little while underway, but no drips stationary.
Thank you for all the advice. This is my first time doing this, so I will try and take picks too.- Tom
First off, don't sweat it too much. If you are thinking this is a big deal, it really isn't. And if you don't get the results you need, you can start over without much time lost.

1. 3-4 times should be just fine. I'd probably do 3. There is limited space in there.

2. I would go with somewhere in between. Basically tight but not as tight as humanly possible.

3. Yes. I have even had where there were no drips and the shaft stayed cool. I don't see anything wrong with that. I have also heard 1 drip per minute while not underway.

4. Ideally, yes, you were told correctly. The big deal here is that it is not slinging water all over the place while underway.

Another trick is that if your shaft is in a hard to reach place, like inside of the keep with space restrictions, I just used a hammer and a chisel or screw driver. Put the chisel into the nut and hammer away....whether tightening or loosening. Sometimes one is not able to get a wrench on it otherwise. If you can, great. But the hammer and chisel method always served me well. My past 2 boats have had dripless though.
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Old 10-30-2015, 06:52 PM   #95
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[QUOTE]...tighten just till it stops dripping. And then do the final adjustments while you are running... If it starts dripping underway, tighten till it just stops dripping and check...QUOTE]

I think he meant, go out and run the boat, stop the boat and make adjustments. Do not try to make any adjustments while underway, running or while the engine is in gear. Don't ask me how I know.
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Old 10-30-2015, 06:56 PM   #96
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Baker's right, don't over think it.
What comes out may not go back in. You don't know how many times it has been tightened up and there could be an extra turn or two added from original. You'll know when it's enough.
No PVC pipe, no sweat, just use the gland to push the rings in.
Maybe not go 12-6 cause the third ring would be back at 12. Go 12-3-6 or close to. Whatever. Nothing is really critical here except tightness when it's all done.
No spray and no heat.
You'll be doing this for a living soon.
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Old 10-30-2015, 06:58 PM   #97
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[QUOTE=Larry M;384068]
Quote:
...tighten just till it stops dripping. And then do the final adjustments while you are running... If it starts dripping underway, tighten till it just stops dripping and check...QUOTE]

I think he meant, go out and run the boat, stop the boat and make adjustments. Do not try to make any adjustments while underway, running or while the engine is in gear. Don't ask me how I know.
Can be done right at the dock without unhitching.
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Old 10-31-2015, 07:28 AM   #98
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All boats will wiggle and change a bit under way.

We have a deck inspection hatch over the stuffing box and adjust the packing underway to barely not drip.

Seldom is the temp much above water temp, although heat comes from the ER and down the shaft..
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Old 10-31-2015, 08:40 AM   #99
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We boated on rivers around St Louis where gritty water took a toll on shafts and packing . Don't know how Columbia and Delta are in this regard but a good look at your shaft at pullout time gives you a monitoring point.

On large slurry pumping systems filtered gland seal water was a must. I'd guess rivers and drip less systems to be incompatible for this gritty water reason alone. Otherwise I'd be the loner and consider drip less. After 10 years all parts on my drip lees were replaced per the book, old stuff that came off was pristine.
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Old 10-31-2015, 11:29 AM   #100
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Go get a drill bit and chuck it into your drill and pull the trigger. Look straight on at the end of the bit while its spinning and take note the perceived size of the spinning bit. Now repeat the exercise, but chuck the bit very slightly off center. Note that while spinning, you essentially have a larger diameter. This is precisely the situation with your shaft. Its slightly off center, and when it spins it will "expand" in size. That perceived expansion will cause a leak in your packing, because it represents a gap. That's why shaft alignment is so important, because it's the only real way to make your packing really work well and run cool.

So do this. Go stuff your packing gland. Don't get it too tight as it's rather difficult to loosen up packing once it's been compacted. Just backing off the nut won't do it, so just avoid getting it too tight to begin with. If your packing rings are the right size but too thick to easily go into the gland, a trick is to gently flatten them ever so slightly with a hammer. When you put your gland on, tighten it to hand tight and go maybe a quarter turn more. If not a nut type gland, basically just seat the packing without compacting it. If the boat is not in the water, launch.

At rest in the water, tighten the gland until it just stops dripping, then just a bit more. You can go run the boat and seat the packing in a bit, and observe the drip rate when running. Once the shaft stops turning you should have little drippage that goes to nothing after the shaft sits for awhile and the packing expands. Basically after a hour it should have no dripping.

You have just adjusted your packing in a perfect world. Because in a perfect world, our shaft alignment is perfect. In reality, you likely see some water dripping, flinging, or even gushing when running. This will be exactly proportional to the quality of your entire running gear in concert with each other and it is the state of your running gear that will ultimately determine how your packing gland will respond next and whether you will be successful.

Ideally when running you want about a drip or two every minute to lubricate the packing for flax packing.dripless packing does not need it. You don't have to have the shaft spinning when you check as it will take a few minutes for packing to expand after you stop running, so you have time to check. Just tighten the gland, no more than about a quarter turn a time as you get close. If you have good shaft alignment, you will be done almost immediately. If not, put your hand on the shaft each time and the bad news is that the gland will get too hot before you eliminate the excess leakage. Stop before you score the shaft. Packing glands just won't fix alignment issues. Most of use will be somewhere in the middle with little to no leakage and acceptable gland temps. If you can't comfortably hold it, it's too hot.
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