Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 11-19-2014, 04:32 AM   #1
Guru
 
Wayfarer's Avatar
 
City: Oneida Lake, NY
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Radio Flyer
Vessel Model: Wilderness Systems Aspire 105
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 784
To refit, or not to refit. That is the question

I've been window shopping for a 40ish foot live aboard trawler for some months now, and I keep coming back to the KK42. It's got everything I'm looking for. A separate, raised pilothouse, walk around side decks, covered cockpit, full displacement, efficiency and long range, and a nice cozy, livable interior.

At this point I'm still trying to work out what my budget will be, but I can say for sure that most of the 42s on the market are out of my price range.

I've passed over this one a few times, assuming the price was too good to be true. She looks a little rough to me, and even in the best light she's 31 years old, but I'm no surveyor.

Anyone interested in putting their two cents in? What do you see that needs refurbishment or replacement? How crazy would I be to get into a project like this?
__________________
Advertisement

Wayfarer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2014, 05:35 AM   #2
Guru
 
siestakey's Avatar
 
City: Sarasota,FL/Thomasville,GA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Steppin Stone IV
Vessel Model: Marine Trader Kelly Trawler 46
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,271
Send a message via Skype™ to siestakey
Wayfarer

looks like it would be a fun project
__________________

siestakey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2014, 05:47 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
City: Green Cove Springs, Florida
Country: USA
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 210
Send a message via Skype™ to bglad
It looks very original and someone has already been doing some work on it. It would not be unusual for someone to start, have a change of plans then stop. You have to go look to be sure. John Gear at KK could tell you if it is cored or not. My list of main concerns that would drive the price I would offer are as follows:

1. If it is a cored hull is it blistered and how badly or has it already been repaired?
2. What is the condition of the teak on the decks? Serviceable or needing immediate removal and what is condition of deck cores?
3. Engine hours are moderate is it basically good?
4. It is an all electric boat so AC generator needs to be good or replaced.
5. Can it be made to look good without a paint job?
6. Budget replacing everything that has a moving part and the other goodies you want and factor that into the equaton.
7. Fuel tanks condition?

My impression from the pictures and relativey low hours is that it has spent a lot of time sitting around. You will basically be starting from scratch on almost everything aboard. If you want a fresh start and will enjoy doing it budget what it takes to get it the way you want it and make an offer that doesn't leave you hanging by your ankles in the end.
bglad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2014, 05:51 AM   #4
Veteran Member
 
steelydon's Avatar
 
City: Newport, RI/Beaufort, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Obsession
Vessel Model: Transpac Eagle 40
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 40
WF, I spent several years rebuilding a Chris Craft 280 Catalina. When I finished I had a boat that was too small for my intended purpose and was at the low end of the quality/desirability curve. I spent $30K on equipment/systems for a boat that was never going to be worth much more than half that. (I just sold it) The KK has great bones so unlike the CC a refit will provide a higher value overall. But we don't rebuild/refit to resell we do it to cruise.

After 31 years all the systems are suspect. The listing indicates that a 2012 survey is available. A complete survey, not an insurance survey, will describe condition but will also provide a punch list of suspected systems and upgrades needed. Example, the wiring is functional but shows signs of breaking down at the terminal ends, pumps work but will need to replaced soon, etc. Do you have the skillsets to address the issues which need to be corrected? Get a copy of the survey and determine if the project is within the realm of possibilities. How long has the boat been on the market? More than likely the 2012 survey is from an offer a buyer that walked away from the deal. Any boat can be brought back to satisfactory condition, all it takes is money but you don't want to burn through your cruising kitty getting it ready only to have to let it languish at the dock while you replenish your bank account.

Look at the survey and determine if you need to visit the boat.

Don
"Steelydon"
steelydon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2014, 05:51 AM   #5
Guru
 
Insequent's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Insequent
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 50 Mk I
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,425
There is nothing more expensive than a cheap boat.

Refits are very expensive if you do it right. When one guy saw my ER his reaction was "you have got 20 years here". It sums it up perfectly. Meaning all I will need to do for that time is routine maintenance. But it cost an enormous amount. I am delighted with my boat. Would I have done a yard refit had I known the final cost? In all honesty no.

If you do the refit yourself it will still be expensive: materials will be the same but it will cost you a lot, no make that huge, amount of time. Fine if you enjoy the process. But there comes a point in life when you think about just how much time you have left in good health. At that point, once you are sure it is what you want, then spending to get it done quickly - about a year - is worth it.

The best one for you to buy will have had several owners who have each updated/upgraded a few things. I dont know the KK 42's but almost certainly the cheapest one in the long run will likely be towards the upper end of those on the market. If you can't wrangle your budget that far then best to find an alternative vessel that meets most of your needs. There will be some, but I cant point you towards them at present.
__________________
Brian
Insequent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2014, 06:59 AM   #6
TF Site Team
 
Pack Mule's Avatar
 
City: Paris,TN
Country: USA
Vessel Name: William
Vessel Model: Outer reef 32
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,501
WF, I have looked at that boat a few times on YW myself and have had some of your same thoughts but I made a hard core decision to keep the boat I have and continue throwing money and hard labor at it . Ours needed pretty much a total refit when we purchased .We have always done our own work because we like doing the work and always short on boat bucks , but it's not for everybody We have been working on William over two years but we have been able to use the boat during the season . Being able to use the boat while working was a must for us . I refitted a 32 ft sailboat several years ago in my backyard and seven years later we put it back in the water . I never want to do that again. I almost lost interest in boating all together .
I like the boat your looking at and would love to own one someday . I think the price has dropped a few times since listed . I'm not sure I have another refit left in me. It doesn't look like anyone has butcherd anything up. Foe me I would have to do what it needed to get it back in the water so I could at least enjoy it some while working on it and it sounds like from your budget like me you will be doing most of the work . It looks like a good one to start with but get ready to roll up your sleeves and open your wallet . I hope someone gets it soon it needs a good home .
Pack Mule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2014, 07:13 AM   #7
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
If the boat has no basic problems , blown engine , hull blisters refitting is a great way to get YOUR boat. YOUR WAY

The number of individual choices that create YOUR WAY only requires time to learn what your desirements are.

All boats are a compromise , which you choose will get you the best boat for your personal use.

The hull and tankage have limits , the scantlings of the build have limits, your skills have limits , observe the limits and enjoy!!

Living in a partially finished boat is one requirement.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2014, 10:38 AM   #8
Guru
 
healhustler's Avatar
 
City: Longboat Key, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bucky
Vessel Model: Krogen Manatee 36 North Sea
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,178
I bought the best KK I could find at a number I could afford, but I started with a good bottom, good engine, solid tankage and everything electrical working. It turned out to be in a lot better condition than I hoped, but it's still a boat. The pricing for KK's seem to be drifting up again, after they flat-lined in the recession. That means that a good, refit 42 is a more desirable boat with a higher price tag. If you do your own work and the boat has good bones to begin with, and, as you say, it has everything you want, go for it.

Be aware that this boat may have already broken the heart of someone who felt just like you do when they bought it. It can be overwhelming in work and $$$. Try to stay rational and focused on your evaluation. Boats are emotional things just as dreams are. Good luck and stay in touch.
__________________
Larry

"I'd rather be happy than dignified".
healhustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2014, 10:55 AM   #9
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,952
I have been through a very expensive boat refit myself.

Unless you have literally the thousands of hours, and the skills necessary to do all the work yourself then you are not going to come out ahead.

A KK42 at that price point sounds like a bargain, and it probably is a bargain, if you do not factor in labor.

Once you start a refit, if you are paying a shipyard to do the work, you can make a hundred thousand dollars disappear very quickly. Actually, and I have personal knowledge of this You can make a heck of allot more than that disappear.

The up side is just like posted above. I have my boat my way. I also, like Brian posted above bought a 20 year time period in my refit. This will cover most of my retirement years making for few surprises.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2014, 11:12 AM   #10
Senior Member
 
Vashon_Trawler's Avatar
 
City: St. Petersburg, Florida
Country: USA
Vessel Name: M/V Sherpa
Vessel Model: 24' Vashon Diesel Cruiser
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
If the boat has no basic problems , blown engine , hull blisters refitting is a great way to get YOUR boat. YOUR WAY
Well stated! The cost of my trawler's refit was slightly over what I paid for her. I was willing to spend the money and time because (1) there were very few new boats on the market that were comparable (e.g., full displacement, under 26', low HP diesel engine, etc.) (2) I had very specific wants/needs (3) I planned to keep her for many years and (4) Sherpa was not an investment purchase. I now have a boat that is in like-new condition that my wife and I very, very much enjoy--it was well worth the expense and I would do it over again!
__________________
“Go small, go simple, go now”
― Larry Pardey, Cruising in Seraffyn
Vashon_Trawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2014, 11:14 AM   #11
Guru
 
City: Satsuma FL
Country: United States
Vessel Name: No Mo Trawla
Vessel Model: Hurricane SS188
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,674
Some of us are carpenters, some electricians, some mechanics, some plumbers, some painters, some engineers, some scholars and some of us are none of the above. To refit a boat, you need to be a jack of all trades and a darn good one at that. You also need to be goal oriented and have plenty of free time on your hands. Rarely is there immediate gratification and sometimes it takes many years to get the refit finished. There are other elements involved like good health, supportive family, stable employment/income and plain old fashioned luck. If you don't have those skill sets and disposition, pass on the project boat.
Donsan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2014, 11:36 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
nwboater's Avatar
 
City: Whidbey Island WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: MV Kika
Vessel Model: Selene 47 Ocean Trawler
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 187
Wayfarer, you mention that you're looking for a "liveaboard"... will you be a full-time cruiser or tied to the dock? It makes a difference in where you spend your budget -- creature comforts or systems reliability. With a LOA of 42' you can't beat the KK 42 for spacious digs. Another popular live aboard cruiser is the Roughwater 42. On the west coast they can be found in good condition for well under $100K. Good luck.
__________________
Richard Soto
MV Kika, Selene 47 Ocean Trawler
nwboater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2014, 11:47 AM   #13
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,361
Only to repeat what was brought up by bglad in an earlier post, beware a saturated hull. This can be a older Kk42 issue and is not an easy or cheap fix.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2014, 01:44 AM   #14
Guru
 
Wayfarer's Avatar
 
City: Oneida Lake, NY
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Radio Flyer
Vessel Model: Wilderness Systems Aspire 105
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 784
Quote:
Originally Posted by bglad View Post
1. If it is a cored hull is it blistered and how badly or has it already been repaired?
2. What is the condition of the teak on the decks? Serviceable or needing immediate removal and what is condition of deck cores?
3. Engine hours are moderate is it basically good?
4. It is an all electric boat so AC generator needs to be good or replaced.
5. Can it be made to look good without a paint job?
6. Budget replacing everything that has a moving part and the other goodies you want and factor that into the equaton.
7. Fuel tanks condition?

My impression from the pictures and relativey low hours is that it has spent a lot of time sitting around.
I'm pretty certain that it's a cored hull. I believe they were cored throughout the 80's. The survey was conducted while she was in the water, so no bottom information was available. There was mention of a 'small soft spot' in the deck all the way forward, near the windlass. I've turned down boats for similar issues before.
As far as the teak goes, is it fairly obvious when it's gone bad? I assume it goes soft and rots like any other wood, right?
The survey didn't include any engine assessment, so I don't know about that. The report made it sound like the generator was in 'good shape' but the pictures make me doubt that. I'd plan on replacing it.

I think you're right about her sitting around a lot.
Wayfarer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2014, 01:52 AM   #15
Guru
 
Wayfarer's Avatar
 
City: Oneida Lake, NY
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Radio Flyer
Vessel Model: Wilderness Systems Aspire 105
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 784
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelydon View Post
When I finished I had a boat that was too small for my intended purpose and was at the low end of the quality/desirability curve. The KK has great bones so unlike the CC a refit will provide a higher value overall. But we don't rebuild/refit to resell we do it to cruise.

After 31 years all the systems are suspect. The listing indicates that a 2012 survey is available. A complete survey, not an insurance survey, will describe condition but will also provide a punch list of suspected systems and upgrades needed. Do you have the skillsets to address the issues which need to be corrected?

Don
"Steelydon"
As far as the boat suiting my intended purpose, I think it will. It's plenty big enough for just me, and hopefully at some point, a partner.

As far as her resale value, I know I'll never make a profit, but if I can get her into shape, I might be able to recoup a pretty decent percentage of my investment if I ever need to sell. I get the impression that these boats hold their value better than others, and most of the depreciation has already been eaten by previous owners.

The survey was only an 'insurance survey,' so it didn't really cover very much. I get the feeling that a lot of things were missed or sugar coated. I may pay her a visit in a few weeks, and have a look for myself.
Wayfarer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2014, 02:22 AM   #16
Guru
 
Wayfarer's Avatar
 
City: Oneida Lake, NY
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Radio Flyer
Vessel Model: Wilderness Systems Aspire 105
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Insequent View Post
There is nothing more expensive than a cheap boat.

Refits are very expensive if you do it right. Would I have done a yard refit had I known the final cost? In all honesty no.

If you do the refit yourself it will still be expensive: materials will be the same but it will cost you a lot, no make that huge, amount of time. Fine if you enjoy the process. But there comes a point in life when you think about just how much time you have left in good health. At that point, once you are sure it is what you want, then spending to get it done quickly - about a year - is worth it.

Almost certainly the cheapest one in the long run will likely be towards the upper end of those on the market. If you can't wrangle your budget that far then best to find an alternative vessel that meets most of your needs.
I'm not the handiest guy in the world. I've learned a lot in my current boat, but I am by no means an expert. Sometimes I like fixing things up, sometimes I'd rather be at the dentist.
There are many parts of the job that I could probably do myself, and there are some that are just too much. I'd have to have a yard replace the generator if need be. I'd hire someone to install a thruster.
As far as refitting the forward head, I think I could do that. I think I could install a windlass, and probably an AC system.

As far as time goes, hopefully I've got a good amount left. I'm 30, and reasonably healthy, if a bit fat. My schedule is conducive to this sort of thing. I usually work for a month, and then have 2 weeks off, and 2-3 months off in the winter. So I could devote a good amount of time to a project like this. I'm sure it will take twice as long as I anticipate. My projects usually do.

I'm still looking around at other boats, and I may very well end up with something more modest. This is definitely at the ambitious end of the scale.
Wayfarer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2014, 02:31 AM   #17
Guru
 
Wayfarer's Avatar
 
City: Oneida Lake, NY
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Radio Flyer
Vessel Model: Wilderness Systems Aspire 105
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pack Mule View Post
Being able to use the boat while working was a must for us.
It doesn't look like anyone has butchered anything up. For me I would have to do what it needed to get it back in the water so I could at least enjoy it some while working on it and it sounds like from your budget like me you will be doing most of the work . It looks like a good one to start with but get ready to roll up your sleeves and open your wallet . I hope someone gets it soon it needs a good home .
She does need a good home, and so do I! I would want to do whatever was necessary to get her up and running as soon as possible. Things like AC and refitting the second head would definitely wait until things like the hull, decks, engine and generator had been taken care of. I'd definitely want to be able to do some light cruising while I was still working on her. If I wait until she's 'finished,' I'll never leave!
Wayfarer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2014, 02:37 AM   #18
Guru
 
Wayfarer's Avatar
 
City: Oneida Lake, NY
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Radio Flyer
Vessel Model: Wilderness Systems Aspire 105
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 784
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
If the boat has no basic problems , blown engine , hull blisters refitting is a great way to get YOUR boat. YOUR WAY

Living in a partially finished boat is one requirement.
Having her fit out the way I want is hugely appealing.

I've been living in a partially finished house for several years now I'm not sure the idea of 'finished' is anything more than some abstract concept, thought up by Buddhist monks anyway.
Wayfarer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2014, 02:43 AM   #19
Guru
 
Wayfarer's Avatar
 
City: Oneida Lake, NY
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Radio Flyer
Vessel Model: Wilderness Systems Aspire 105
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 784
Quote:
Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
Be aware that this boat may have already broken the heart of someone who felt just like you do when they bought it. It can be overwhelming in work and $$$. Try to stay rational and focused on your evaluation. Boats are emotional things just as dreams are. Good luck and stay in touch.
Very good advice. I get excited pretty easily with things like this, and I tend to be impulsive. Must remember to stay calm
Wayfarer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2014, 02:50 AM   #20
THD
Guru
 
City: Seattle
Country: US
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,142
WF-if it is not too far out of the way for a visit, I think it would definitely be worth a short trip. Several here have in the past posted links to various survey checklists that you can use to do a rough assessment on your own. If it passes that first look, it might well be worth the $750-1000 it may take to get a pretty good survey done. You can even pay a bit less and have a surveyor do a quickie just to help with the evaluation before a full blown survey. That is really the only way you can make a rational (well, on a boat, semi-rational at best!) value judgment. As several have noted, with good bones to start with, you could end up with your boat.
__________________

THD is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012