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Old 08-18-2013, 02:47 AM   #81
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Direct Comparision

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Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
Brian: There's at least one Krogen Manatee (sister boat to mine) that has been fitted with these stationary bilge keels, I think about 12 ft. in length. We look forward to having a side-by-side rolling comparison with him. The Manatee has very good initial resistance to roll, but once in a regular beam sea, she gets moving pretty good. It will be interesting to record the differences in roll (if any). There may be an opportunity to do that in the next year or so.
That will be interesting to hear about.
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Old 08-18-2013, 04:07 AM   #82
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Interesting observations from another subject thread on this forum.

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Originally Posted by hollywood8118 View Post
Boy you all sure do get snippy about windows!,
I do know that the outward slanted pilot house windows reduce the glare from INSIDE the bridge at night from all the instrument /electronics lighting making it possible to see through the windows better. Volunteer had the vertical windows that looked right on a old fish boat, but piloting at night was a big issue because of the reflected light made them work like heads up displays.
Regarding the bottom on the steel boats by Bill Breeze all the boats he built had the same style bottom as the Pacific Song.. they are the same type bottom as most of the seiner's built in steel... and most definitely seaworthy!
...and another related one
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Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
We have one of the few boats that were offered in two different windshield styles. I submit that it the actual positioning of the helm and its distance from the windshield may have had something to do with Jim Krogen offering the North-Sea style windshield, even though there were only six built. I can only speak about the "differences" in the two styles as they relate to our experience here in Florida. Here are some of the things we noted by being aboard other visiting Manatees at our dock. These were all experienced cruisers and half the comments came from them.

1. In evening cruises, the lack of instrument glare is something we appreciate over over our previous boats.
2. When hosting other Manatee owners here at our dock, they are stricken by the contrast of sun and heat while standing at the totally shaded helm.
3. We've got kind-of a tropical sea-bird issue here (I mean some really big birds) and we've escaped the bird doo-doo problem of our neighbors.
4. When the boat is idle, no windshield cover is necessary to prevent UV effects in the boat, especially at the helm and chart table areas.
5. Underway in full sunshine, there's no reflection off the white areas of the helm. Sunglasses are rarely needed.
6. Wind pushes rain down the windshield rather than up.
7. Even in driving rain, we haven't felt a need for wipers.
8. The high pressure area created with the air-trap at the base of the windshield greatly facilitates ventilation through the intake ducts system on the front of the pilothouse.
9. In our humid climate, when standing at the helm, the conventional model's windshield is very close to the forehead. Air flow to defrost or dry the windshield is directed into the eyes. With the North-Sea style, those air currents are 3 ft. away and going the opposite direction.

A few disadvantages:
1. Turning-on overhead lights in the pilothouse reflect in the windshield.
2. In Northern, cool climates, there would be little sun-warming effect.
3. Sky watching is greatly reduced, and occasional glances out the pilothouse doors might be necessary during weather.
4. A higher mast is necessary to run mast support stays forward to bow.

It should be noted that 93 out of 99 of the boats were ordered with the conventional style, including Jim Krogen's own original Manatee. My Admiral and I know we already have a style challenged vessel, but we do prefer the North-Sea option, even if it is probably the prime example of wannabee windows on the site. For where and how we use the boat, it fits our needs better. Had the helm been located further back in the house, like the 42, for example, it may not make any difference.
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Old 08-18-2013, 01:19 PM   #83
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This might be an idea of what it would look like in steel.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:48 PM   #84
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CNC cut metal panels

Back to building this boat, and a little word about the steel hull before we move onto the composite superstructure.


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Originally Posted by brian eiland View Post
.....excerpt
Why steel? It's an inexpensive material, easily fabricated, and very durable. It's a material that inspires confidence in a boat's survivability from mishaps and collisions by both experienced boat owners and newly minted ones.

I would propose that this steel hull could be built in a 'frameless fashion'.
http://5psi.net/index.php?q=node/11


Attachment 22059

Attachment 22060


As noted the computer cut steel panels are welded-up together while supported by this external jig-frame. Then the internal framing members (stringers, frames, bulkheads) can be added as deemed necessary. I've attached another photo example of a bulkhead with stringers. I think the Pilgrim design could get along fine with 5 of these major bulkhead types tying the hull sides together, and supporting the thick sandwich-cored deck I wish to place on top of their upper edges.

Attachment 22061


Note that the welded-up hull, with the bulkheads all installed, could remain in the jig-frame fixture while the engine and other equips are being installed (no deck is installed yet). The deck piece, and then major cabin superstructure, could actually be assembled on another part of the shop floor and then brought over and placed onto the assembled hull.


There are several other advantages to this steel hull idea. You will note that I mention 'computer cut panels' of steel. This not only shortens the time of construction of the steel hull, it also makes it a potential kit-boat candidate.

It has yet another potential benefit. Unlike a fiberglass hull where I am married to a single bottom design, I can change this hull's bottom design readily if something new looks feasible.

...from another forum...
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeljc
One of my builders has help build scores of CAD:CNC cut alloy boats. We have recently built 7 in our own workshop. All of these craft were drafted by one particular draftsman who is now an expert. He had the opportunity to check his work on the floor over many years. His boats just fall together. Fold lines are marked and I recall a horizontal pipe orifice within an angled plate that was cut perfectly. If one had to cut the plates by hand construction time would be trebled, in my view.
M
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Old 08-23-2013, 12:11 AM   #85
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Composite Superstructure Considerations

There are any number of notable ship constructions where a lighter-weight superstructure has been sought out for a basic metal hull. Alum topsides over a steel hull comes to mind for a number of larger yachts and navy vessels. Creative bonding techniques have had to be invented for these cases. Likewise the joining of composite superstructures onto steel hulls requires creative thinking about both the mechanical and the 'chemical' bonding of these two very different materials.

I use the word 'chemical' in the sense of adhesion. There are any number of mechanical methods of bonding that are conventional in manner. It's the adhesive bonding that is continuously under development with ever-stronger, greater adhesion products. I think we are currently at a point that we have a number of very good adhesive products that can join our composite superstructures to our steel hulls with extreme confidence.

My thoughts are this 'transition' from steel to composite should take place at the hull-to-deck interface, rather than at the deck to cabin superstructure joint. In other words I favor a composite deck, ...more specifically a sandwich-cored composite deck onto which the rest of the cabin/superstructure is attached.

I've witnessed years and years of sandwich cored composite constructions. Basically it boils down to using 3 types of cores;
1) balsa,
2) various foams, and
3) honeycombs of either alum, Nomex, or polypropylene.
Generally the balsa cores have won out over the foams for deck fabrications due to their greater stability under the extremes of tropical heating. But balsa cores have a significant history of susceptibility to rot from water penetration at various hardware attachments and migration of water along the core-to-skin bond line.

Alum & Nomex honeycombs are a little pricey, and extra care must be exercised to obtain a good bond with the very 'thin edges' of the honeycomb chambers. Polypropylene honeycomb however has a fiberglass cloth scrim thermo-fused to its cell structure,...a very consistent bonding that doesn't provide voids for water to migrate across. This 'scrim layer' in turn provides a 100% bonding surface for the fiberglass skins to be applied to. And the polypropylene material itself is totally rot proof in the case of any water penetration.

I've come to the conclusion that this 'polypropylene honeycomb core material' is the best choice for my composite decks and superstructures. Poly-core is one name the Aussi's and NZ boat builders term it. They actually pre-fab sheet panels (akin to sheets of plywood) of these materials in a controlled environment, and subsequently computer cut those sheets into specific panels that will be joined together to form a structure, a bulkhead, a deck section, a cabin side, etc., Here is one example
*Polycore Composites - Polycore Australia - Polycore Honeycomb

*Nida-Core Lightweight Composite Honeycomb Core Materials and Structures and

*Plascore - Honeycomb Cores ? Honeycomb Panels Products
are two polypropylene honeycombs better know in the American market.

For reference here are a couple of other pre-fab panels utilized by these kit boat designers in Australia and the Asia. But these panels utilize balsa or foam at their cores.
*Boat Construction | Lightweight Building Panels | Architectural Panels

*DuraKoreŽ - ATL COMPOSITES
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Old 08-23-2013, 12:23 AM   #86
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Some have asked, 'why not an all steel vessel rather than mix in composite structures'?? As you pointed out in your note (a steel boat builder) above, the steel decks can be more problematic than the hulls.

Neither the steel decks, nor the steel cabin sides/structures are by nature insulated. Also one must add in a substructure (battens, etc) to these metal skin panels to both get a decent attachment for the interior finishing panels, and to get a non-moisture condensing, insulated interior.

The cored composite panel decks and superstructure are already self-insulating and non-condensing by their nature. As a bare necessity the inner surfaces of these composite panels could be simply painted a pleasing color, or a decorative wall covering fabric glued on, or wood panel/trim can be glued on.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:19 AM   #87
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I may have missed it but what is the proposed thickness of the hull plating?

I "get" the mechanical bonding of steel to composite. Two issues I'm still unsure of are the chemical bond strength and sealing the hull/deck transition joint. Thermal expansion/contraction rate differences could present a problem. I've seen plastic to steel interfaces where the plastic was essentially slowly sawed through over time due to this problem. Perhaps an apples and oranges comparison but it illustrates my concern.
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Old 08-23-2013, 04:08 AM   #88
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I may have missed it but what is the proposed thickness of the hull plating?
5mm, maybe even 6mm, depending on the final shape of the bottom, and the recommendations of the collaborating NA. Give favor to the thicker sizes as much of the remainder of the vessel will be relatively lt-weight.
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:25 AM   #89
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I "get" the mechanical bonding of steel to composite. Two issues I'm still unsure of are the chemical bond strength and sealing the hull/deck transition joint. Thermal expansion/contraction rate differences could present a problem. I've seen plastic to steel interfaces where the plastic was essentially slowly sawed through over time due to this problem. Perhaps an apples and oranges comparison but it illustrates my concern.
I'm proposing that the deck will be made up of a relatively thick piece of honeycomb panel with appropriate fiberglass skins on either side. This deck will sit down on top of those 5 metal bulkheads with their flat tops that stretch across the hull from gunnel to gunnel....like this pic...
Click image for larger version

Name:	metal bulkhead frame, stringers,.jpg
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Those athwartships metal frames should add a lot of stiffness to the hull structure, tie the upper edges of the hull skins together, and check some of the thermal expansion/contraction differences. The one-piece PP honeycomb deck will sit on top of these bulkhead flat-tops and the deck shelf at hull interface.

Per a recommendation by a steel boat designer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ
Composite decks whether plywood or cored GRP are attached the same way. there is what's called a deck shelf say 400mm wide runs around the deck edge and is welded to the hull plate, it should be hot zinc sprayed epoxied and then bedded in sealant. The composite deck fits over the shelf and is bolted down while the sealant is still uncured, part of the shelf is left exposed as a gutter ( never take it all the way to the bulwark) . Cored GRP decks are reduced to a single thicker skin in the interface.
The cons of GRP is a completely different thermal expansion coefficient so the attachment has to be considered an "expansion" join and colors should be white, white or white
(Brian noted: I still want to question if I can bring the PP cored deck all the way over to the hull skin and bed it into a nice mixture of advanced adhesive)

For a significant number of years now they have been gluing decks to hulls without any other fasteners. Plexas product comes to mind most immediately. These are methacrylate adhesives, and there are now a good number of these super adhesives on the market. So those products are prime candidates for joining our decks to hulls.

There are other good candidates for our adhesion problems,...what are known as 'toughened epoxies', or could be referred to as 'rubber toughened epoxies'. Here is what one builder said about one particular product he utilized.
Quote:
Here in new Zealand there is a flexible type of epoxy that is just what the doctor orded for that type of work (Delemma-Hull to deck joint). It's an epoxy ,semi flexible, sticks like nothing I have ever used before , has a long working time is easy to use and easy to clean up, we did all the 8 deck and transom joins on the match racing boats I made in South Korea .There was no fastenings at all through the decks they were just glued and not even glassed on the inside!! The outside we had a 5mm groove between the deck and the hull as the squash out area and just coved it and took off the surplus and that was it !!.....Fantastic stuff


HPR25 ,comes in 2 colors ,white or black , its 2 to 1 mix is easy to use , its made by Adhesive Technologies ltd here in Auckland NZ . Its is west system resin based so has a good reputation . The 36 ft match racing yachts we were making had the decks and the internal floor grid over the keel stub socket ,that included the mast step was also stuck down with HPR25 . The boat in a fully finished condition was lifted from its cradle into the water each day on one single pin that went through the FIBREGLASS floor grid and had a STAINLESS STEEL yoke attached to the lifting strap from the crane
ADHESIVE TECHNOLOGIES - Epoxy Resin and associated products for boat building, industry & home

One thing to keep in mind, these 'tough adhesives' get a lot of their toughness from being somewhat pliant (not brittle). Likewise the PP honeycomb material and panels are pliant (ductile). These characteristics work together to make a really TOUGH product.
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:55 AM   #90
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Not sure what advantage in incorperating rusting steel into a GRP boat would be.

For low cost one off GRP core hulls , this is a proven system.

Booklet Explaining KSS Boat Building Method - Kelsall Catamarans

www.kelsall.com/UniqueKSS/WhatIsKSS.pdf‎
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Old 08-23-2013, 08:14 PM   #91
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KSS System

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For low cost one off GRP core hulls , this is a proven system.

Booklet Explaining KSS Boat Building Method - Kelsall Catamarans

www.kelsall.com/UniqueKSS/WhatIsKSS.pdf‎
Actually not looking to do a GRP cored hull. Don't really need a lt-weight hull for a displacement boat.

And the steel hull will take quite a beating, including grounding with more minimal damage than a thick glass hull. Think ductility,....steel will actually dent to a great extent before puncture.

But you may have been reading my mind, as I intended to introduce this KSS system as the manner to build the PP cored superstructure. You beat me to it



(PS: I have an alternative reason for constructing in this material method. I have in mind the same sort of construction for 2 off-shore motorsailers that may visit reefed shores....steel hulls sure sound appealing there. One of those designs is this 44 Rhodes. This one I found in Southern Md was a solid glass hull, its what got me to thinking, why not a steel hull.
Scroll down to the postings starting at #74
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/ge...n-alden-5.html

And what if one of the Pilgrims was to make a trip over to the Bahamas, or down to Cuba....lots of coral heads....steel sounds appealing)
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Old 08-24-2013, 02:18 AM   #92
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I do hope Mr. Pilgrim is getting a kick out of all this and will do better next time.
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Old 08-24-2013, 05:44 AM   #93
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<Actually not looking to do a GRP cored hull. Don't really need a lt-weight hull for a displacement boat. >

Weight is not the only reason for a cored hull.

The insulation value and the sound damping are a help for many cruisers , and the ease of one off construction are also a plus. No interior hull moisture in lockers etc is also a plus.

IF weight is less of a concern by using almost as much GRP per sq ft as a solid hull, a cored hull can be remarkably strong.
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:02 AM   #94
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I do hope Mr. Pilgrim is getting a kick out of all this and will do better next time.
I think 'Mr. Pilgrim' did a great job, and he chose the proper hull material based on a long production run, and the assets of his sailboat building operation.
History - PILGRIM Trawlers
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:48 AM   #95
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This thread is OUT OF CONTROL.
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:52 AM   #96
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This thread is OUT OF CONTROL.
Agreed! I can't believe this!
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Old 08-24-2013, 12:18 PM   #97
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This thread is OUT OF CONTROL.
depends on which side of the fence at the asylum your standing on....
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:34 PM   #98
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OUT OF CONTROL ??
What are you talking about? Have I ventured far from this stated purpose?


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Let me correct an impression some of you have about this 'redesign' I have in mind, before things venture off into never-never land.

I like the looks of this vessel VERY much just as it is. I am NOT proposing to change the looks of this vessel's topsides/superstructure.

Some of the changes I want to look at are:
1) the construction method and materials
2) possibly a minor length increase to expand the owner's stateroom
3) an adherence to the KISS principle for onboard systems
4) etc

If you look back thru the evolution of this vessel design you will find a number of changes that were made to the original design over the short span of its production. One most notable one was a change in the layout of the galley and the head arrangements. I think it was a good change. There was also a transom door added on later models....good option.

I want to study the details of this vessel design in more detail, and make subtle changes where deemed advisable.

Again I emphasis I am not looking to 'modernize' the vessel in the looks department. It pushes all of the right buttons for me there.

PS: On the title of this subject thread I referred to this design alternatively as a 'canal boat'. I think a much better term would be 'coastal cruiser'
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Old 08-25-2013, 04:15 AM   #99
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Where do you find the "flogging a dead horse" symbol?
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Old 08-25-2013, 06:38 AM   #100
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It almost has me wishing for Marins' rabid ROCNA rant.
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