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Old 08-17-2013, 05:41 AM   #61
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WTF? Why are you trying to take what is an essentially an inland cruiser and trying to make it suitable for ocean passage type cruisers? The Pilgrim is nice little rig. Like all boats its a compromise, if you want to do the ICW and short coastal cruises its just the ticket. Trying to "improve" it with all these add on electrohydraulic widgets is just kind of silly. Buy a Nordhavn or Kady Krogen if you want to go to sea. You now just by looking at a Pilgrim 40 it is going to roll the cream right out of your coffee but it is a cool character vsl that does her mission as designed.
Sorry if I offended anyone. No animals or deckhands were harmed during this rant.
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Old 08-17-2013, 06:15 AM   #62
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For those that wish to continue with fine looking boats like the Pilgrim should simply look at the many Trumphy houseboats.

They are larger and more comfortable and are also inshore vessels.

Marketing was far more honest in the old days so houseboat was acceptable as a term.

High amounts of power for control/operation are not required for boats that require stability , simply better engineering is needed.

While it might take massive power to force fins into position , a small powered tab ( even a balanced tab as aircraft use) would do the job with finger tip power.

The concept of a powered anti roll centerboard , is quite different from just a centerboard.

Depending on the response time required , a tiller auto pilot electric ram should work fine.
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Old 08-17-2013, 06:54 AM   #63
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the gyros work on everything...the first couple tests and videos were of sportfish with very flat runs aft and square chines....worked like a champ..if you can believe the marketing...

they resist rolling...that is their nature so it doesn't matter the shape if the roll never starts or is severely limited.
I got a demo on a sportsfish during the Fort Lauderdale show last year, all of my skepticism evaporated the moment the "unlock" button was pushed. The things work and they work well. The acceleration app on my iPhone provided proof it was not just my imagination.
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Old 08-17-2013, 07:06 AM   #64
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The Pilgrim is nice little rig. Like all boats its a compromise, if you want to do the ICW and short coastal cruises its just the ticket.
Totally agree with your assessment of what the vessel IS.

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Why are you trying to take what is an essentially an inland cruiser and trying to make it suitable for ocean passage type cruisers?

Trying to "improve" it with all these add on electrohydraulic widgets is just kind of silly. Buy a Nordhavn or Kady Krogen if you want to go to sea.
Its not anyone's intention to make it an ocean going vessel, but there will be certain owners with enough funds that will want to add on other goodies. All the more power to them. From a production standpoint it would be wise to stay away from each of these individual request for 'customization' as this can involve a lot of man-hours that might not be covered in the price.

The static fins I mentioned could be added without a great deal of expense,....question is are they effective enough? TBD
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Old 08-17-2013, 07:13 AM   #65
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For those that wish to continue with fine looking boats like the Pilgrim should simply look at the many Trumphy houseboats.

They are larger and more comfortable and are also inshore vessels.
I made that analogy already, that the pilgrim designer might have had a photo in front of him of an old Trumpy-Mathis houseboat....ha..ha
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While it might take massive power to force fins into position , a small powered tab ( even a balanced tab as aircraft use) would do the job with finger tip power.

The concept of a powered anti roll centerboard , is quite different from just a centerboard.

Depending on the response time required , a tiller auto pilot electric ram should work fine.
I think we are past the point of any consideration of any 'active fins' on this vessel. Just some might want to put a Seakeeper unit onboard. Hey if you can afford it, go for it.

Sure sounds like they work. Sure sounds like they require almost no maintenance.
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Old 08-17-2013, 07:16 AM   #66
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The static fins I mentioned could be added without a great deal of expense,....question is are they effective enough? TBD
Effective enough is purely subjective.

I can tell you that even boats fitted with 4 fins for zero speed stabilization can roll like pigs when the stabilization is off. The fins simply don't have enough area to be noticed. That applies when running at speed or stopped.
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Old 08-17-2013, 09:10 AM   #67
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Effective enough is purely subjective.

I can tell you that even boats fitted with 4 fins for zero speed stabilization can roll like pigs when the stabilization is off. The fins simply don't have enough area to be noticed. That applies when running at speed or stopped.
Yep.... so bad on my friends 55 Viking MY that the captain who brought it up from Myrtle Beach refused to go the last 15 miles when one stooped working.

Of course static fins would have to be larger and take more engineering etc...etc...and all of a sudden they are as big of a PIA as para-vanes and knock of a knot or so of speed too.
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:51 AM   #68
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I agree w Sailor of Fortune.

Active stab fins on a shallow draft riverboat like the Pilgrim dosn't seem very appropriate.
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Old 08-17-2013, 12:37 PM   #69
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WTF? Why are you trying to take what is an essentially an inland cruiser and trying to make it suitable for ocean passage type cruisers?

Sorry if I offended anyone. No animals or deckhands were harmed during this rant.
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Old 08-17-2013, 12:53 PM   #70
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I don't suggest refitting a Pilgrim. It is what it is (preferably what it was).

Using a Pilgrim as the inspiration on a new build, I would give consideration to the roll. Not much more to complain about from me with our one and only.

The roll has come to be less over time, by way of learning how to avoid it. When it does happen it doesn't last long, but I have taken to drinking black coffee. Our home port has a big Sea-Ray dealer. Before the economy tanked the demo 52 seemed to lock in on us, pass by and then return toward the harbor making it impossible to avoid an awakening. I always hope those ignorant/inconsiderate (fill in the blank) get what they are asking for...........blurred photos!
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Old 08-17-2013, 01:37 PM   #71
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The trouble with boats is....

none of them do everything well and the more you try...the worse they get at a bunch of things....

so the headache is defining what will be 75% (arbitrary) or better of your cruising needs and designing to those (an almost impossible task at that)...then refining it to see if you can get more without severely degrading what you already have...

then the ultimate test....living with what you wind up with because ain't no such thing as the perfect boat...only the perfect boat for you.
That is why you see the name COMPROMISE on the transom of so many boats.
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Old 08-17-2013, 01:46 PM   #72
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That is why you see the name COMPROMISE on the transom of so many boats.
I don't think the qualities of the boat are in that usage of "compromise" as much as what was given up by both parties to arrive at "THE" compromise.

I wonder if there is a statistical correlation between boats named "Compromise" and divorce....
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Old 08-17-2013, 02:03 PM   #73
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Is Seward a divorce boat name?
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Old 08-17-2013, 02:35 PM   #74
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Is Seward a divorce boat name?
It is a "folly' when you really think about it.
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Old 08-17-2013, 02:47 PM   #75
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Funny you use the word folly. I grew up on Folly Beach, SC.
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Old 08-17-2013, 02:56 PM   #76
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Funny you use the word folly. I grew up on Folly Beach, SC.
I knew that! A friend forwarded me some info from the NSA files on you.
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Old 08-17-2013, 10:48 PM   #77
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Brian: There's at least one Krogen Manatee (sister boat to mine) that has been fitted with these stationary bilge keels, I think about 12 ft. in length. We look forward to having a side-by-side rolling comparison with him. The Manatee has very good initial resistance to roll, but once in a regular beam sea, she gets moving pretty good. It will be interesting to record the differences in roll (if any). There may be an opportunity to do that in the next year or so.
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:12 PM   #78
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Brian: There's at least one Krogen Manatee (sister boat to mine) that has been fitted with these stationary bilge keels, I think about 12 ft. in length. We look forward to having a side-by-side rolling comparison with him. The Manatee has very good initial resistance to roll, but once in a regular beam sea, she gets moving pretty good. It will be interesting to record the differences in roll (if any). There may be an opportunity to do that in the next year or so.
Break/Break: Larry, there is a really good anchorage just North of you between Jewfish Key and Long Boat Key. A good restaurant there that you can access by car or boat. Now back to regularly scheduled thread.
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Old 08-18-2013, 12:17 AM   #79
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You are going to tell me that pulling/pushing two fins this size sideways thru the water is not going to do anything to slow the roll or dampen it ?? I beg to differ with you!
You might want to think about this a bit more Brian. This thread has done two things. Reminded me of the maintenance saving in not needing antifoul on a trailered boat.
Also that I often noticed back in the days when we sailed a maxi trailer yacht called a Gazelle 26, which had a 400 odd kg electric lifting aerofoil shaped keel, that the roll period was much more snappy when the keel was down than up. I suspect for two reasons. One, the righting force was greater with it down, and two, the waves exerted more rolling force when it hit the keel as it passed underneath. Contrast this with the stated reason in the info re the Great Harbour designs as to why they don't roll as much as you would think, because their broad beam, and flat bottom and relatively shallow draft means they sort of ride up and over the wave, (? Like a rubber ducky), rather than being 'tripped' into a more exaggerated roll, by the wave catching underwater projections. At least that was my take on it, from the designers description, and I can visualise how that might well be, especially in light of how our yacht behaved. It was of course with the sails all furled and at anchor, say, fishing. On the move with sails up different story, although the roll period was still slower with the keel retracted.
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Old 08-18-2013, 01:00 AM   #80
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I agree with what you are saying Pete.
With my bilge keels, I get very little rolling from on board disturbances. The bilge keels certainly help that. They perhaps reduce the effect of a wake with a once only force.
But with a beam sea, I am not so sure they are effective. They may even make the rolling more pronounced if the swell is in synch with the boats natural roll timing.
The only way to tell for sure is a side by side comparison.
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