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Old 01-25-2017, 09:48 AM   #421
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Wood for Hull (and likely deck)

This posting deserves reposting,
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My boat was built with computer cut sections of high grade ply wood with multiple layers of 8MM thick sections formed into 50 ft long planks and chine construction over the bulkheads similar to a metal hull. instead of welds taped and Epoxy glued and glass covered. Wood used by this method properly done should not be discounted it is a superb structural substance when applied properly. The end result is a lite strong one piece boat with no structural fasteners well insulated and waterproof and remember wood floats. Repairs and modifications do not need welding equipment and some epoxy and glass cloth can do out back fixes with only moderate skill which most skippers have.
....along with some new info and photos from Ed
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Moon rivers bottom. Designed to be SD speed scale 5-18K cruise. Specs.; 52 ft. LOA 46+ ft. LWL 14 ft. beam approx. Wt. fully loaded 34,000 lb. Twin JD 6068 engines 22X26 4 blade props on 2 inch shafts. ZF 301A straight drive transmissions. Intended use purpose. Variable speed protected waters express cruiser capable of summer cruising in PNW to carry regular crew of two and be fully single hand capable. Accommodations for two and four family guests kids and grand kids on rare occasions. While this boat can cross some significant costal open water and probably is more capable than many this design was not meant for open water and big wave use.








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Old 01-26-2017, 05:09 AM   #422
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Subtle Differences in Pilgrim Vessels

Some subtle differences in the Pilgrim vessels over the production run,...documented here in a few words and photos ( I hadn't seen this before)

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While the Pilgrim was marketed as a semi-custom boat, there were many changes made to the basic boat during the production run.
An attempt at documenting these changes is detailed below.
Differences - PILGRIM Trawlers
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Old 01-27-2017, 12:39 AM   #423
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a MKll version?



from another forum
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I'm a big fan of the Pilgrim 40. There was recently a "mkII" for sale on YW that had a bigger Caterpillar engine and built in aluminum. Much more horsepower than typically came in this boat. I wonder how that performs compared to all the others that were obviously designed to be slow and comfy?
The Pilgrim on Yacht world right now is a "Pilgrims Progress 40". It is not the same manufacturer as the original Pilgrim, as well of being built out of aluminum instead of fiberglass. Interesting, I had not seen that vessel before. It sure appears to be a 'redesign' of the original Pilgrim 40, but without the nostalgic looks of the original. Can't say that I am attracted to it, ....certainly not Great Gatsby looking.


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Old 01-27-2017, 06:59 AM   #424
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Thats a very well constructed swim platform on Moon River,love it.
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Old 01-27-2017, 09:57 PM   #425
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Thats a very well constructed swim platform on Moon River,love it.
The swim platform has a story. The original design as Sam Devlin and I envisioned was 44 Ft. to the stern. When we started to play with the various types of power plants and drive systems we ended up wanting straight drives and that put our props too far back to allow for easy rudder placement and I did not want to hang rudders on the stern. So we extended the boat with a full displacement 4 FT. swim platform which houses the rudders and steering gear. Since I wanted a stern thruster and Sam wanted trim tabs I found myself with another issue. I did not like the tabs and thruster to be vulnerable to backing into a dock. So in order to protect these assets I asked for a two inch SS pipe extending around stern. Sam then filled the gap with heavy mahogany planks to make a second swim platform that does not float and is aft of the stern staples. All this worked out very well the aft platform is perfect for flipping our inflatable up on its side using small removable SS fittings. This leaves the forward floating platform empty allowing for the sides of the forward floating platform to act as a perfect boarding or boat departure area even with the dinghy in the on board position. We also added significantly to the boats LWL which is over 46 Ft. allowing for a nice sub hull speed cruise speed when we are not in a hurry.
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Old 01-27-2017, 10:46 PM   #426
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The swim platform has a story......
Interesting how our boat designs grow in length
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Old 01-27-2017, 10:59 PM   #427
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Internal Framing of you Wooden Hull

Originally Posted by eyschulman
Quote:
Brian the 4 layers of 8 mm were the thickest sections the # of 8mm layers were matched to the stress expected so the boat weight need not be heavy. some of my 32,000lb is related to heavy twin JD 6068 engines loads of machinery and equipment and tankage. My dinghy with engine weighs close to 500lb and there is that heavy Nick Jackson lift etc. etc.

When I think boat building material my first thought goes to who built it and how. Pick any material or method and there will be good and bad examples for each. There are the inherent characteristics of each material to consider but in the end the quality and soundness will depend most on how well it was done and not on the particular material. The ply epoxy method used to build my boat was used in over 400 builds by the small shop and designer of my boat in a period spanning > 30 years. I have personally inspected some of these boat which have been used hard over time and they do very well and are not hard to repair.
(Built by Sam Devlin in Olympia Washington. Dynel epoxy coated not paint keeping water out, think of it as a wood composite.)


Many home built stich and glue boats have been poorly done and have given the technique a bad rap. I own a stich and glue dinghy that is almost forty years old never pampered still very serviceable. Another big plus for a wood composite is the interior. It is all epoxy soaked wood easy to finish and is quiet and insulated(no sweating). A composite boat can be painted with modern tough two part paint and products like truck bed liner. With darker wood trim a beautiful interior is not hard to build.
I am assuming there is less internal wood framing structure than would be found on an older wooden vessel designs/builds?

Is there any possibility it might appear as brief as this steel framing...



Do you have some photos of the internal framing of your wooden hull?
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Old 01-28-2017, 12:55 AM   #428
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The Gozzard web site confirms Brian statement that: "A boat called the PILGRIM 40 PROGRESS is presently being advertised. It should be noted that there is no connection between this boat and H.T.Gozzard, or North Castle Marine Ltd/Gozzard Yachts."

Source: Gozzard Yachts Boat Information - Gozzard Yachts Brokerage.

The Pilgrim Progress Mark II 40 "Susan Marie” is a semi-custom built Gil Fleming designed trawler. Hull decks and mechanical equipment were built & installed by Force 10 Yacht Builders in Ontario, Canada which fell victim to the Canadian economy in 2004.
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Old 01-28-2017, 08:08 PM   #429
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Originally Posted by brian eiland View Post
Originally Posted by eyschulman

I am assuming there is less internal wood framing structure than would be found on an older wooden vessel designs/builds?

Is there any possibility it might appear as brief as this steel framing...



Do you have some photos of the internal framing of your wooden hull?
some picture of the internal areas there are some internal wood stingers and the bulkheads much less than the steel boat shown. None other than motor stringers on bottom of hull and only two on sides of hull all incorporated into bulkheads and inner hull structure. Much of the furnishings are incorporated into structure.
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Old 01-28-2017, 09:08 PM   #430
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Incredibly strong construction. SD makes beautiful boats and MR Is certainly one of his finest.
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Old 01-29-2017, 01:12 AM   #431
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You will appreciate this Ed,...from a retired steel boatbuilder !
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Originally Posted by Wynand N
Plywood, especially molded plywood is in my view the best material for building a boat. Light, extremely strong and very durable if used with modern epoxies.

If I have to do it all over again, this would be my preferred material to work with
STEEL HULLS with Composite Superstructure / Topsides - Page 3 - Boat Design Forums
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Old 01-29-2017, 10:25 PM   #432
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You will appreciate this Ed,...from a retired steel boatbuilder !

STEEL HULLS with Composite Superstructure / Topsides - Page 3 - Boat Design Forums
I have after many years owning boats and hanging around boat yards have also come to the conclusion that high quality ply epoxy glass or Dynel composite is one of the best if not the best way to build a one off or low volume recreational boat from 8Ft. to 65 FT. If someone is intending to grind a boat bottom on the rocks then aluminum or steel might be a good choice. Few boaters spend much time on the rocks. I had the opportunity to build my boat of any material cost of the hull was not an issue in my choice. Unfortunately a high quality ply epoxy hull is not cheap the bad rap associated with ply construction is mainly due to builders who thought ply was easy and tried cheap or did not have the skills or knowledge to use the system right. I include two pictures of composite sections; the round from the fore deck with light ceiling wood as incorporated into structure. There are also some solid mahogany deck beams incorporated into the deck structure beautify varnished seen in third picture.. the second picture is section from the stern topside. bulkheads hull and house all vary in how many 8mm ply sheets are used. All cut on a computer based on electronic or computer design. The desired end result is a relatively light strong one piece boat even the interior structure cabinets births shelves floors etc.is incorporated into the one piece concept with no metal fasteners except where removal of a panel is needed..
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Old 01-29-2017, 10:35 PM   #433
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One of my favorite boats on the forum, just beautiful!
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Old 01-30-2017, 12:38 AM   #434
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I have after many years owning boats and hanging around boat yards have also come to the conclusion that high quality ply epoxy glass or Dynel composite is one of the best if not the best way to build a one off or low volume recreational boat from 8Ft. to 65 FT. If someone is intending to grind a boat bottom on the rocks then aluminum or steel might be a good choice. Few boaters spend much time on the rocks. I had the opportunity to build my boat of any material cost of the hull was not an issue in my choice. Unfortunately a high quality ply epoxy hull is not cheap the bad rap associated with ply construction is mainly due to builders who thought ply was easy and tried cheap or did not have the skills or knowledge to use the system right. .....All cut on a computer based on electronic or computer design. The desired end result is a relatively light strong one piece boat even the interior structure cabinets births shelves floors etc.is incorporated into the one piece concept with no metal fasteners except where removal of a panel is needed..
Just off the top of your head,....or that of the builder of your vessel what do you think a rough estimate would be to construct JUST the hull and deck of a Pilgrim 40,
(naturally in the hard chine fashion like yours, or the even harder chine version like the one I illustrated here for the Great Harbor style vessels)


Leave out anything else having to do with the above-deck superstructure, etc. I have other considerations to explore there.
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Old 01-30-2017, 12:21 PM   #435
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Just off the top of your head,....or that of the builder of your vessel what do you think a rough estimate would be to construct JUST the hull and deck of a Pilgrim 40,
(naturally in the hard chine fashion like yours, or the even harder chine version like the one I illustrated here for the Great Harbor style vessels)


Leave out anything else having to do with the above-deck superstructure, etc. I have other considerations to explore there.

I have no idea what that break down in cost would be. The ply would have to be high grade not cheap and epoxy also not cheap. wood stringers and deck beams not many and the cost of the computer wood cutting. Some wire and temporary fasteners to hold things together while epoxy sets up and glass to sheath the hull. The rest is mostly labor and know how. I am thinking the X section you show would probably work well with a single engine using a bit more exaggeration of a box keel to get a nice flat angle for the shaft.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:07 AM   #436
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Steel,...again

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Why steel for the hull,...why not fiberglass like most other production boats these days? One of the key words here is 'production boat'. Sure making up the plugs, then the molds for a production run of boats makes sense. But what if you don't really know how many copies you may build,...what if its a limited run geared for a specific market?? Then you are trapped with an up-front, expensive bit of tooling that you can not amortize over a goodly number of vessels.

But if we still consider a fiberglass hull, we certainly know by now we don't really want, nor need, sandwich core construction in the hull structure below the water line,...for that matter we might well leave it out of the hull structure altogether. That leaves us with solid fiberglass construction utilizing some decent resins, some decent fiberglass, and some good gel coats. Great Harbor Trawlers brags that their hull bottoms are solidly built with “laminates of more than 1-inch thick”.

When I start thinking about the labor hours to lay-up the laminates of that thick solid glass bottom, and their cost of quality resins in today's new oil price market, I just have to come back to the reality that just as tough a hull can be fabricated from a single, much thinner thickness of sheet plate steel at a fraction of that cost. And the steel's ductility makes it all the more appealing.

Why steel? It's an inexpensive material, easily fabricated, and very durable. It's a material that inspires confidence in a boat's survivability from mishaps and collisions by both experienced boat owners and newly minted ones.


Can we build the steel hull shape we might want, and can we build it at a reasonable price? I certainly believe so. I believe we could build an almost identical hull to that existing one in steel. I also believe it could be made even easier by modifying the hull slightly to a single chine, or maybe even a double chine if so desired.

I would propose that this steel hull could be built in a 'frameless fashion'.
http://5psi.net/index.php?q=node/11

Quote:
THE V/D STADT FRAMELESS CONSTRUCTION METHOD
This type of hull is built inside a frame rather than over frames. It is a very fast building method and I completed a 34ft hull & deck, completely welded and shot blasted and prime painted in 3 weeks flat


Attachment 22059

Attachment 22060


As noted the computer cut steel panels are welded-up together while supported by this external jig-frame. Then the internal framing members (stringers, frames, bulkheads) can be added as deemed necessary. I've attached another photo example of a bulkhead with stringers. I think the Pilgrim design could get along fine with 5 of these major bulkhead types tying the hull sides together, and supporting the thick sandwich-cored deck I wish to place on top of their upper edges.

Attachment 22061


Note that the welded-up hull, with the bulkheads all installed, could remain in the jig-frame fixture while the engine and other equips are being installed (no deck is installed yet). The deck piece, and then major cabin superstructure, could actually be assembled on another part of the shop floor and then brought over and placed onto the assembled hull.


There are several other advantages to this steel hull idea. You will note that I mention 'computer cut panels' of steel. This not only shortens the time of construction of the steel hull, it also makes it a potential kit-boat candidate.

It has yet another potential benefit. Unlike a fiberglass hull where I am married to a single bottom design, I can change this hull's bottom design readily if something new looks feasible.
After trying briefly to source a real good quality plywood over in Thailand to utilize in the hull construction of the Pilgrim redesign concept, and being somewhat discouraged by the prospects, I've come back to the idea of steel again. I looked back at this subject thread, and realized this one very early posting really covered most of the bases,...so I thought it was worth repeating.
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:37 PM   #437
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