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Old 09-25-2016, 03:14 PM   #381
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[QUOTE=brian eiland;

I was looking at two items principally.
1) the construction of the vessel (both hull and topsides) that might be even more robust (steel bottom), and might be economically producible in limited numbers, without the very large upfront investment in tradition fiberglass plugs and molds to get into production.[/QUOTE]
H
Brian: - laudable objectives.
If it could be done, and within my budget, I would be first in line for a new steel or aluminium Pilgrim!
Grace, beauty, and a pretty sheerline - these things are not dead! I believe there are lots of people who would be interested in a very slightly modernized version of this fine vessel.
BUT, please, please keep its' old-world charm and character!

(and when will mine be rolling off the production line?)
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Old 10-24-2016, 08:29 AM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowGypsy View Post
H
Brian: - laudable objectives.
If it could be done, and within my budget, I would be first in line for a new steel or aluminium Pilgrim!
Grace, beauty, and a pretty sheerline - these things are not dead! I believe there are lots of people who would be interested in a very slightly modernized version of this fine vessel.
The real question is are there really 'lots' of potential buyers??
Some preliminary research indicates a lot of people would not be satisfied with the slow speed of this vessel, particularly the younger crowd and the more wealthy crowd. That leaves the middle class older boater, who is saddled with his desire verses his wife's, and the fact that he has spent a lot of his disposable income trying to keep his siblings afloat following the 2008 economic crash.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowGypsy
BUT, please, please keep its' old-world charm and character!
I feel I need to repeat a posting I had made previously..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
REDESIGN,..redefined

(Pack Mule said: I can't imagine why anyone would want to redesign one of these)
(BruceK said: I`m with you, Mr Pilgrim has been done a disservice.)

Believe me I was not really talking of modifying the topsides look of this vessel,...it is EXTREMELY attractive the way it exist.

I was looking at two items principally.
1) the construction of the vessel (both hull and topsides) that might be even more robust (steel bottom), and might be economically producible in limited numbers, without the very large upfront investment in tradition fiberglass plugs and molds to get into production.

2) tweaking some little interior details as they did themselves over the years with little changes in the layout, etc.

3) the possibility of a hard chine underwater hull design.

4) the possibility of a computer generated, pre-cut metal and interior wood trim,...a kit-boat offering

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowGypsy
(and when will mine be rolling off the production line?)
I don't have the funds to start such such a project, but were I a bit younger I would be considering it. Perhaps we could find a young enthusiastic guy who wants to enter the boat building business. I'd be glad to lend my support at a VERY reasonable fee.
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Old 10-24-2016, 08:49 AM   #383
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John Wayne's first boat

This reference was just recently posted over on another subject thread, but I was afraid it might get lost in all the other 'stuff' on that subject thread. Plus it was a craigslist link that was provided, and we all know how quickly that material can disappear.

I posted some of the photos here as it has a somewhat similar theme to the Pilgrim vessel, but of course it is larger, and not as nostalgic looking.

Quote:
~NorWester~ John Wayne's first Yacht, 76 feet of yacht with a truly historic provenance, she abounds with classic old nautical charm and wood boat shipwrighting. Rolled off the weighs in her original design as a heavy duty motorsailer, so she was built with heaver framing and planking then a standard motor yacht of the era. Her long and narrow hull provides for good fuel efficient cruising. Interior filled with beautiful mahogany and an exterior now providing for ease of upkeep. Major refit of her topsides summer of 2016, total new wheelhouse roof and framing, boat deck reworked and whole works sealed in the best deck coating used on commercial vessels, all superstructure, main decks and bulwarks re-finished at the same time, done at Lovrics ship yard in Anacortes, WA. This gal is ready to go, charter, cruise, live aboard, business venture, you name it she is ready for a new adventure.

Feel free to check out her museum web site at
Home - The Norwester Museum Tour

....or article and more pictures from the mariners Waggoner Guide at Grand Opening of John Wayne’s Boat the Norwester on July 9 in La Conner, Wa. - Waggoner Cruising Guide How about her service as YP 165 patrol vessel in WWII
http://www.navsource.org/archives/14/31165.htm

Sales options; NorWester is being sold with or without the business that is now associated with her as a John Wayne museum. Price for the business side will basically be the purchase price of the John Wayne memorabilia, movie props, and other movie star autographed items. Im sure if you want a few items to keep with the boat You can purchase all or a portion of the items! Advertised listed price is the Yacht only. Owners plans have suddenly changed after just getting all this work done and setting her up as a museum with tours and gift shop. Letting her go at this super, super price for a quick sale.
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Old 10-25-2016, 07:44 PM   #384
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I have a 45' x 12' Steel Canal barge "New" project for sale in Florida. Cadillac (772) 285-2266
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Old 01-09-2017, 08:54 AM   #385
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Steel Hull opinion

I had posted previously....

Quote:
Originally Posted by brian eiland View Post
Why steel for the hull,...why not fiberglass like most other production boats these days? One of the key words here is 'production boat'. Sure making up the plugs, then the molds for a production run of boats makes sense. But what if you don't really know how many copies you may build,...what if its a limited run geared for a specific market?? Then you are trapped with an up-front, expensive bit of tooling that you can not amortize over a goodly number of vessels.

But if we still consider a fiberglass hull, we certainly know by now we don't really want, nor need, sandwich core construction in the hull structure below the water line,...for that matter we might well leave it out of the hull structure altogether. That leaves us with solid fiberglass construction utilizing some decent resins, some decent fiberglass, and some good gel coats. Great Harbor Trawlers brags that their hull bottoms are solidly built with “laminates of more than 1-inch thick”.

When I start thinking about the labor hours to lay-up the laminates of that thick solid glass bottom, and their cost of quality resins in today's new oil price market, I just have to come back to the reality that just as tough a hull can be fabricated from a single, much thinner thickness of sheet plate steel at a fraction of that cost. And the steel's ductility makes it all the more appealing.

Why steel? It's an inexpensive material, easily fabricated, and very durable. It's a material that inspires confidence in a boat's survivability from mishaps and collisions by both experienced boat owners and newly minted ones.


Can we build the steel hull shape we might want, and can we build it at a reasonable price? I certainly believe so. I believe we could build an almost identical hull to that existing one in steel. I also believe it could be made even easier by modifying the hull slightly to a single chine, or maybe even a double chine if so desired.

I would propose that this steel hull could be built in a 'frameless fashion'.
http://5psi.net/index.php?q=node/11


Attachment 22059

Attachment 22060


As noted the computer cut steel panels are welded-up together while supported by this external jig-frame. Then the internal framing members (stringers, frames, bulkheads) can be added as deemed necessary. I've attached another photo example of a bulkhead with stringers. I think the Pilgrim design could get along fine with 5 of these major bulkhead types tying the hull sides together, and supporting the thick sandwich-cored deck I wish to place on top of their upper edges.

Attachment 22061


Note that the welded-up hull, with the bulkheads all installed, could remain in the jig-frame fixture while the engine and other equips are being installed (no deck is installed yet). The deck piece, and then major cabin superstructure, could actually be assembled on another part of the shop floor and then brought over and placed onto the assembled hull.


There are several other advantages to this steel hull idea. You will note that I mention 'computer cut panels' of steel. This not only shortens the time of construction of the steel hull, it also makes it a potential kit-boat candidate.

It has yet another potential benefit. Unlike a fiberglass hull where I am married to a single bottom design, I can change this hull's bottom design readily if something new looks feasible.
I just recently ran across this opinion on another forum that was discussion the best boat to do a circumnavigation...
excerpt...
Quote:
OK, then: 70-ish ft. X 20-ish ft. in steel for the hull and Al for the superstructure. Why steel?
FRP burns at 500F, Al at 1220F, with steel at--tah-dah!--2800F.
FRP hull and deck are screwed and bonded together, while steel/Al are welded (Detaclad a la the USN). Welded deck-hull joints don't leak, and there is no core to worry about.

This would not be a marina queen. We are going off to places where there might be hammers and acetylene, but perhaps not a dram of MEK.

Steel has a greater yield strength--and much higher ultimate strength--than Al or FRP and so will bend, not shatter or rip--if one encountered a semi-submerged shipping container, or reef/rock not on your chart.
Additionally, your steel hull would have fuel/freshwater/waste tankage built integrally into the hull, thus providing a double bottom over a good portion of the wetted surface. Oh, and a full keel with a 1" stainless steel shoe. Keel cooling covers a multitude of sins, minimizing through-hulls. Cleats and stanchions, and the like are welded to the deck and are there for keeps.

Downsides--I can hear the squawks already--OMG. Steel! Steel Rusts!!
Pre-primed ASTM36 from the mill, additional inorganic zinc primers, fully-faired hull with epoxy/polyurethane top coats... you'd mistake it for a FRP boat. Yeah, when the finish gets dinged, a brush and a can of zinc primer is a necessity.
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Old 01-09-2017, 10:31 AM   #386
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Brian, I completely agree with you concerning hull construction in steel!
I am currently going throught the process of selling my beloved old Colvin steel schooner, and moving to a trawler, like the Pilgrim. Every boat I look at seems to have, or had, blisters/osmosis/hull delamination or soft deck problems due to the coring. Just thinking about all the issues I must be sure the surveyor addresses adequately reminds me again of why I love my steel hull!
Security, survivability, no deck to hull join leaks, no core rot, no soft decks, etc. Need a new cleat? - just weld it on!
In thirty years of ownership I have seen very little rust, none of it serious, and very easy to fix. (unlike a full FRP hull peel!)
I would love to have a steel Pilgrim!
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Old 01-11-2017, 01:11 AM   #387
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If anybody does a steel pilgrim my word of advise. I am a previous owner and spent a few years of six months/year aboard. Don't do a round hull. Do a hard flat chine at the water and a deeper keel and keep the CG low thus an aluminum or composite house. As an alternative put a gyro stabilization system on the boat. Stop the roll and you have a great inland and costal boat.
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Old 01-13-2017, 07:23 AM   #388
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Brian, thought I'd ad this to your above info on the NorWester.
Hope you don't mind.

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Old 01-14-2017, 01:54 PM   #389
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The composite chine hull in the picture was built for SD speed scale of 6-20K. The same type of hull made of heavy steel with a deeper keel and the flattish wide buttock powered for hull seed and below 6-9K would in my opinion make a good inland and coastal boat. The chine construction in steel would be easy and cost effective. I believe this hull forum would give a new pilgrim a wider range of sea conditions to happily operate in. Yes it may not look like the original hull curved round hulls of the pilgrim is a thing of beauty. The boat need not be ugly I post an example of a potential look.
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Old 01-14-2017, 02:43 PM   #390
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Now THAT is a fine looking hull! - agree that the Pilgrim hull could stand a little tweaking in this regard, and still be a very "pretty" boat.
If only I could afford to have a yard custom build me a vessel like the one you posted above!
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Old 01-15-2017, 12:18 PM   #391
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Hull form would give a new pilgrim a wider range of sea conditions to happily operate in. Yes it may not look like the original hull curved round hulls of the pilgrim is a thing of beauty. The boat need not be ugly I post an example of a potential look.

That hull form would be a really excellent one, and could be built of mostly of flat plates of steel. It might not even have to have that many 'panels' as the freeboard of the Pilgrim vessel is so much lower, combined withe the lower displacement of the Pilgrim vessel compared to that beautiful designed vessel also posted by Ed.
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Old 01-15-2017, 06:01 PM   #392
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Having lived through a few custom and semicustom builds I would point out the well known fact that the hull is probably the least expensive part of the boat. Assuming a 45-48 foot build I think one would be looking at over a million US dollars. If a high quality interior with top end equipment was desired 1.5 million would not be out of the question. If built out of the US there would be a substantial labor savings somewhat offset by the need to ship stuff to the build site from more sophisticated areas. Then comes the question who monitors the build and sees to the quality? Boats particularly new builds have become expensive. On a value basis a good used boat that has been well cared for is most attractive. Another consideration when dealing with one off and low volume boat construction is resale value. Boats built and sold by larger companies that establish a brand name often have a known resale market that helps retain resale value. I have seen many good quality custom and low volume boats sell for a very deep discount after sitting stagnant on the market. My present one off boat will be hard to sell for the same % of original value as say a Hinckley of the same cost.
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Old 01-16-2017, 10:28 AM   #393
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I'll admit to not reading the most of the replies so pardon me if I missed something.

At age 70 (or older) do you really want to build a boat? I'm about that age and I don't want to build a boat, I want to cruise on a boat. There are far too many half built or renovated boats sitting around that were started by someone who's health failed before they could finish them.

It is a very nice looking boat and I imagine it gets a lot of attention wherever one is seen. I read an article in one of the boating magazines about one.

One does have to wonder though, why there were so few of them made. Is there a problem with the design or were they just too costly for what you got?
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Old 01-16-2017, 11:59 AM   #394
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I'll admit to not reading the most of the replies so pardon me if I missed something.



One does have to wonder though, why there were so few of them made. Is there a problem with the design or were they just too costly for what you got?
To help answer that question the following; The Pilgrim was built in a small Canadian shop by the designer and the boat was marketed by two gentleman other than the designer never big advertising and real full production boat. I also herd that the designer builder did not like the idea of getting cubby holed into this one boat build concept. The boat also had a lot of detailed finish work which in a north American shop is expensive and maybe the profit margins were not great. Considering that there was still a fairly good run for a boat that came close to matching custom builds. The intended use target of the boat by my memory of discussions with the designer builder was for use in very protected inland waters a restriction exceeded by many owners, but that may have limited some market appeal.
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Old 01-16-2017, 12:34 PM   #395
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Wood Interior

If I remember correctly there has been in the past some discussions as to the expense of trying to build a nice wooden trimmed interior that these boats had,...and that trying to reproduce this 'quality' in a redesign effort could be expensive, (and was sited as one of the expensive items in the original build).

I would refer you back to a few postings I made on the subject:
Trawler Forum - View Single Post - Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat

Trawler Forum - View Single Post - Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat

Trawler Forum - View Single Post - Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat

...precis
In those days the 'wood trim' was often a structural portion of the interior item, thus the carpentry skills required were even more elaborate. Nowadays the wood trim is of a 'cosmetic additional to the underlying structure. It can still accomplish the same Herreshoff 'effect'', but it is somewhat easier to build.

All of this wood trim can be simply glued onto the PP honeycomb panels that make up the 'cabin box'. These wood trim pieces can be supplied in a pre-cut fashion, either in-house or from a sub-contractor, even an overseas one (Thailand perhaps?). They could be CNC pre-cut pieces, and they could come in a variety of wood types,.....cherry, oak, teak, burl, etc.

These wood trim pieces and fixtures (cabinetry, doors, etc) would not have to be fashioned from homogenous solid woods, but rather could be some of the very high quality veneers (real wood) that are thinly cut to be glued onto the outer surface of lesser expensive wood substrates.

The trim and fixtures could be made a variety of the 'composite plastic' fake woods of this modern day. (reference those many varieties and qualities of laminated flooring materials...)
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Old 01-16-2017, 12:52 PM   #396
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Quote:
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At age 70 (or older) do you really want to build a boat? I'm about that age and I don't want to build a boat, I want to cruise on a boat. There are far too many half built or renovated boats sitting around that were started by someone who's health failed before they could finish them.
I'm not saying that a number of older folks would want to build such a vessel by themselves,..but they may very well like to have such a vessel to live out their retirement years on. I would be one of those if my Thai wife were to agree.

And it would be nice to have a small company that could produce such a 'kit boat', upon demand, within a year's time frame, and at a reasonable price compared to a 'custom build'. It would be nice if the building company did not have a VERY large investment in up front tooling that it was forced into production large numbers of these vessel in order to 'recover/recoup' that initial investment.

A compact liveaboard vessel that might represent minimal operating expenses, and that was a movable feast up and down the coast of the USA, or among the various ports of a country or group of countries might well be a choice for a number of older folks, in leu of that big camper vehicle that many of them invest in after retirement.

Perhaps you might enjoy reading this book....
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTTEDAVIS View Post
Here is the link direct to author

Seven Miles an Hour
Who will read this book? Anyone who wonders what it would be like to follow the seasons up and down the coast, all Trawler owners and Wannabes, everyone approaching retirement with little enthusiasm, all those who enjoy a good read and a chuckle, as well as all cat lovers everywhere.
Seven Miles An Hour isn’t only about the pleasures of gunkholing in Florida and the Keys. There’s a sudden grounding, an alligator encounter, a dragging anchor, and a cat overboard. There’s the search for the green flash, making new friends in remote anchorages, a guardian angel, as well as practical advice on anchoring out, coastal cruising, and living aboard.
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