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Old 08-13-2013, 12:25 PM   #21
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Anti-Rolling Fins

The more I read about the various opinions on what particular hull shape and chine design resist the rolling motions in powerboats, the more convinced I become that the most effect control is an active of passive 'device', And a number of these either do not work so well, or are pretty expensive devices.

So I look back to some old sailing devices that I think can be made to be very effective 'roll dampeners', good old retractable centerboards, ...but for these purposes we best call than fins.



How about something like this ??....
....make the twin bilge 'fins' as retractable 'centerboards'.

In other words these bilge boards would be more like shark fins that would retract inside the hull. These fins I have in mind for roll dampening would be just plain old flat plate boards,...perhaps steel or another material. (they don't need to be foil shaped boards as our sailing ones often are)

Now I know most sailboaters know how difficult CB slots and boards can be to keep anti-fouled. I'm thinking that the 'trunk' would be a relatively wide-mouthed rectangular box with one of its edge glassed to the hull's bottom inner skin, or in the case of a steel vessel, welded to the hull's inner skin,....with its 'mouth' open to the sea.

Into this rectangular box (trunk) there would be inserted, as an assembly, a rectangular block of UHMWP that has a slot carved into it that holds the pivoting 'centerboard/fin'.

What I'm seeking to do is have a fairly wide-mouthed trunk that on occasion can be cleaned out and recoated with anti-foul. The innards are made out of a block of UHMWP that is virtually anti-fouling by itself, and it can fit a fairly close-tolerance pivoting board that gets 'wiped' each time it is withdrawn or kicked back into its slot.

All self lubricating, and no penetrations to the integrity of the hull itself.

(sorry not in a place where I can provide a sketch at the moment)
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Old 08-13-2013, 03:04 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by SaltyDog View Post
I'd hate to see people making too many changes to their "new" boats without living with the vessel through real life boating for some time. Methinks that one would find more comfort in changing ones thoughts to work with a Pilgrim rather than changing one of the Pilgrims to meet the thoughts that they have coming into owning one. .
Excellent post! Although I'm sure a buyer's suggestions are well intended, most tend to screw up a well thought out design.
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Old 08-13-2013, 03:57 PM   #23
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Pilgrim 40

There is an entertaining book written by a couple that purchased a Pilgrim 40 and lived aboard. Can't think of the title right now but maybe someone here knows of it.
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Old 08-13-2013, 04:20 PM   #24
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7 miles per hour available at Landfall

That's the book.
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Old 08-13-2013, 04:49 PM   #25
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There is an entertaining book written by a couple that purchased a Pilgrim 40 and lived aboard. Can't think of the title right now but maybe someone here knows of it.
"
"7 miles an hour" by Don Willams ..story of MV Jazz a Pilgrim 40
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Old 08-13-2013, 06:09 PM   #26
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For those worried about the roll I'd suggest sitting down and enjoying the ride as much as possible.

Trunked CBs or bilge boards are problematic re fouling the trunk. Swing keels may be a tad better.

Active stabs are expensive and mechanically problematic probably on a par w out drives.

Paravanes are dangerous and reduce speed about one knot.

A good stabilizing sail may be the best option. Located aft it will probably tend to balance your windage and located further fwd may even give some get home options. Not much of an option on a SeaRay but makes good sense on a trawler.

My Willard rolls plenty and the only thing I do about it is to change course or threaten to put in a seat belt.
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Old 08-13-2013, 06:49 PM   #27
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Trunked CBs or bilge boards are problematic re fouling the trunk. Swing keels may be a tad better.
But of limited effectiveness.

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Active stabs are expensive and mechanically problematic probably on a par w out drives.
In my experience their owner's are very happy with them.

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Paravanes are dangerous
To your back or your hands?

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A good stabilizing sail may be the best option.
But will be, overall, about the least effective. Especially when powering up and down inlets or channels. Sometimes fine if you are willing to tack like a sailboat.....
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:12 PM   #28
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"
"7 miles an hour" by Don Willams ..story of MV Jazz a Pilgrim 40

Sorry Don Wallace

Here is the link direct to author

Seven Miles an Hour
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:13 PM   #29
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How about something like this ??....
....make the twin bilge 'fins' as retractable 'centerboards'.

(Snip)

Now I know most sailboaters know how difficult CB slots and boards can be to keep anti-fouled.
How is the fouling issue dealt with on power yachts with retractable fins?
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:53 PM   #30
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UHMWP insert

Hi Tad,
This idea of utilizing a 'removable insert' of UHMWP (Ultra High Weight Molecular Weight Polyethylene) plastic came to me after having used it for a rudder stock frame on our Firefly trimaran. We had a kick-up rudder on that vessel, and the rudder shaft had to held in place vertically, it had to allow the shaft to rotate very freely, and it had to rotate up backwards out of its slotted position in the transom of the hull.

The natural tendency was employ a SS frame fixture that fit the transom slot and could pivot up rearwards. It would also have bearings mounted it its frame to carry the rudder shaft. And it needed another element that would allow the frame as a whole to rotate during kick-up.

Then I said, why this somewhat complicated metal frame arrangement with separate rudder shaft bearings, etc. Why not just band saw a thick piece of UHMWP to the size I seek to fill that slot in the transom for this kick-up rudder, and drill the appropriate holes to accept the rudder shaft, and the kick-up bearing shaft.

Bottom line, I ended up with a single material piece of tough plastic to replace a somewhat involved SS fixture, and it could be fashioned with a common band saw and drill press, it cost a fraction of the other alternative, and it was virtually free of marine fouling by its very nature.

I think something like this could be fashioned for the twin damper fins I'm proposing.


(PS: I really began to think about this as an idea to add a 'sailing centerboard' onto those 2 motorsalers I like so much,...to keep their drafts low, while adding bit more sail area, and a more central pivot point when tacking, etc. I had twin centerboards on my 37' catamaran, and I do know some of the difficulties of keeping them anti-fouled. I also know of bearing and water-tightness of same with my CB on the trimaran design, and several other vessels)
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:59 PM   #31
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How is the fouling issue dealt with on power yachts with retractable fins?
They tell the captain to take it into the yard for the yearly refit, and the pay the (six or seven figure) bill.

Seriously, guys: have you never talked to people who work on big boats? Just last month I was chatting with a bosun on a 150 footer. Typical yearly yard bill was in the 2 to 3 million range. That's on top of the full time crew of 5.

The owner wasn't worried about fouling the retractable fins.

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Old 08-13-2013, 08:15 PM   #32
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To my eye, (and that's of course entirely subjective) I think the flybridge cowling detracts from the general lines of the boat. Somebody posted an early sketch of this design without the flybridge. Much better. Especially from the front quarter views, the boat seems (to me, at least) to look unnecessarily top heavy.

The flybridge looks out of place, sort of like somebody stuck a stovepipe hat on a Hollywood starlet. Opinions will differ of course, but that's mine.
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Old 08-13-2013, 08:52 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by SaltyDog View Post
I'd hate to see people making too many changes to their "new" boats without living with the vessel through real life boating for some time. Methinks that one would find more comfort in changing ones thoughts to work with a Pilgrim rather than changing one of the Pilgrims to meet the thoughts that they have coming into owning one.

It is one of those things that one appreciates more in time.

SaltyDog: Well said, a wise philosophy that would have great value to anyone entering in a relationship with any boat, but the Pilgrim is really a statement in form and purpose. It's likely that buyers of Pilgrims already have a bit of that philosophy to begin with, cuz it's not only a lifestyle, it's a style of a lifestyle. There might be the rare Pilgrim fan that think them cute or novel, but I'd guess that the cost of the novelty would make them flinch. True buyers of Pilgrims are likely to be damn serious about their boats. The novelty, economy and practicality are all gravy.

Now if I can just allow my Manatee to be who she is.
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:03 PM   #34
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Thank you Scott, not many 150' yachts in my marina hence my question.
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:09 PM   #35
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Without getting into the workings of the CB box, would flexible fins work better than stiff fins to help reduce roll?

I'd think the flex would add to or subtract from the resistance to roll, but I don't know which.
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:27 PM   #36
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How is the fouling issue dealt with on power yachts with retractable fins?
I don't know enough about these various designs to comment with any intelligence.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyDog View Post
Without getting into the workings of the CB box, would flexible fins work better than stiff fins to help reduce roll?

I'd think the flex would add to or subtract from the resistance to roll, but I don't know which.
That's an interesting question.

But one thing I keep in mind is that the 'board/fin' itself needs to be heavy enough to 'fall out' of the slot on its own. So the only 'control needed' is a line to pull (retract) the fin back into its slot.
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:39 PM   #37
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These Pilgrims tug at our hearts because they were built with care and designed from the heart . I would think what ever issue an owner has with one of these quickly goes away when he sees her as he is walking down the dock in the morning with coffee in one hand and tool bag in the other. I've only seen one up close before.I had to go back the next day and look some more. If I can look at one I don't mind the work at all.
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:46 PM   #38
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Flybridge ...option

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Gould View Post
To my eye, (and that's of course entirely subjective) I think the flybridge cowling detracts from the general lines of the boat. Somebody posted an early sketch of this design without the flybridge. Much better. Especially from the front quarter views, the boat seems (to me, at least) to look unnecessarily top heavy.

The flybridge looks out of place, sort of like somebody stuck a stovepipe hat on a Hollywood starlet. Opinions will differ of course, but that's mine.
I can agree with you Chuck, but I think way too many folks like it, particularly for 'canal' usage.

Of course that 'unit' can always be an 'option'
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:05 PM   #39
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These Pilgrims tug at our hearts because they were built with care and designed from the heart . I would think what ever issue an owner has with one of these quickly goes away when he sees her as he is walking down the dock in the morning with coffee in one hand and tool bag in the other. I've only seen one up close before.I had to go back the next day and look some more. If I can look at one I don't mind the work at all.
I think there is a lot of nostalgia involved, these boats harken back to the 'great Gabsy era' . The older age population has come to appreciate this older era, and its elegance.


I wrote a reply to a magazine article a number of years ago,


Quote:
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Just finished reading your article about Ray Hunt in the June issue of Soundings, I wanted to write and let you know how much I truly enjoyed the article


You captured not only the factual history, but more importantly, some of the essence of being involved with yachts and yacht design itself..... “the measure of total understanding of the nature of a boat.”


And most importantly, you included the oft forgotten element, the sheer line. What a terribly important factor!! Romantically stated, but oh so true, “it is simply her sheer .....sheer beauty that is. She enters the harbor like a beautiful woman entering a room. Her sheer is the line we try to get right when we doodle boats.” So many of today’s boats lack this beauty, and correspondingly, some of the essence of yesteryear’s yachting.


Your article brought some of that feeling back to me.....some of that feeling that first inspired me to want to learn of sailing yachts and their design....that had me (virtually a non-sailor at the time) putting together a scrapbook of designs, both good and poor, for future reference.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:55 PM   #40
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Why steel for the hull,.....
Have to inject a little humor here....but truism


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I've been aboard every kind of vessel that there is, made of: Wood, Fiberglass, Cement, Composits, Aluminum, and yes steel. And there is something about steel that just seems to say it all; strength, seaworthiness, a sense of security, and durability (Especially in foul weather.) that the other hulls just don't inspire. Steel, And Fun Everyone is an acronim for Safe, and I think that explains how we all feel on a steel hulled vessel.

True, Aluminum comes close, but I always think of aluminum foil, and how it crinkles, and not that the space shuttle's 2" thick hull is made of aluminum. LOL

And fiberglass, well just having glass in the word is enough to unsettle a real swab.

And didn't they use to put cement goulashes on people like Jimmy Hoffa for a reason?

Now wood is okay for someone like Noah who had no idea of what steel was, as it hadn't been invented yet, and his boat wasn't being built for long term usage anyway, it just needed to float for a while. And too, polished wood is wonderful for a nautical setting inside of a steel boat too, to remind us of our roots.

And finally, composits are fine light weight material when used for building air, and spacecraft, but they cost too much, and are as yet untested by time, and really are no more than a space age form of fiberglass to me. And there's that word glass all over again. Geesh!

Now truthfully, when you measure your boat against another out in the water which one would you want to have under you when they collide in the fog?

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