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Old 10-10-2013, 05:34 AM   #201
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Could be completely incognito in a larger vessel. (Simmons Sea Skiff)
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Old 10-10-2013, 09:33 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by SaltyDog View Post
Could be completely incognito in a larger vessel. (Simmons Sea Skiff)
And what about amidships. This unit was at the Mote Marine Laboratory in Longboat Key, FL. I could see that if exhaust concerns could be safely addressed, a single amidships diesel OB could be engineered to joystick rotate 180 degrees for reverse and handling, A simpler direct drive leg, no reverse could be done in single or twin (stern & amidships) applications, giving pod-like handling. Of course, it's fun to think about, but that would be the end of the KISS philosophy.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:21 AM   #203
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...a portion of Tad's posting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tad Roberts View Post
30 years of designing and getting boats actually built.

I have great respect for Jay but this is a bit optimistic. Yes, NC cut parts can speed up a build, but that NC work takes a great deal of time (which is fine if you are doing multiples of the same boat) just like mold building. And the NC parts are only a portion of any complete boat.

If you had 20,000 pounds of steel NC cut you could tack it together and do some (not all) of the finish multipass welding in 1300 hours. But that is not even close to a completed vessel.
Let me begin by saying I have a great respect for your long term experience with these matters, and I am absorbing all of this information you are posting.

However I am going to try to counter some of your figures and claims with counter-arguments to the extent that I can find supporting documentation for my position. My most basic problem is I just don't see where this relatively simple vessel needs to cost a half million dollars to build

So lets start with the steel hull portion. I have suggested a 'frameless' hull construction,.... subcontracted out. This South African fellow did a bit of steel hull boat building, and prevously posted a lot of discussions over on Boatdesign.net. He has now retired from boatbuilding, but he has left a website up.
Final painting & delivery | Steel Boatbuilding

Here is some portions of his frameless discussion:
Building Upright or Upside Down | Steel Boatbuilding

Plating a Multi Chine Hull | Steel Boatbuilding
...look down the page
THE V/D STADT FRAMELESS CONSTRUCTION METHOD
Quote:
As mentioned elsewhere, this type of hull is build inside a frame rather than over frames. It is a very fast building method and I completed a 34ft hull & deck, completely welded and shot blasted and prime painted in 3 weeks flat.
COMPLETE BUILT - DIX 43 | Steel Boatbuilding
six guys in his crew including himself

If we doulbed that build time of his for the 'framless hull method', it would still make financial sense, wouldn't it? ...and notice that his 3 wk figure includes the deck which he claims is a real time consumer. I'm hoping not to use a steel deck.


This was one of his early postings that got my attention,...look down to WynandN
Frameless Construction - Page 2 - Boat Design Forums
...18 working days to build the 34' hull and deck (and I think he did his own panel cutting by hand)
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Old 10-10-2013, 05:32 PM   #204
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brian,

Yes, and Brent Swain will tell you he can launch a steel boat in a week and sail away. Yet his boats get completed in about the same time as other boats, 2-3-4-or 5 years....why is that? Boatbuilding, done with care, takes time. There is only one Wynand(whom I have great respect for) and he's retired.

We had a PL 48 built in South Africa, a 32000 (Full load) pound boat, the original builder claimed he could do it in something marginal like 6000 hours(hazy memory). I thought that was unlikely and rather fast going. The time went by and the owner ended up with an empty shell and all the money spent. The builder went out of business.

A local steel boat builder, with a commission to build a radius chine Bruce Roberts 46' sailing yacht. The builder improved the design, and kept improving it, until all the money was gone and the bare shell had been welded up. It was gorgeous work, but the boat suffers from lack of stability due to the builder raising the freeboard and adding lots of extra metal. It's a far nicer looking boat, but the builder is out of business. Not because he built a bad boat, he built it too good.....

Even those who you would think know better. Pacific Seacraft introduced their 38t Fast Trawler at something like half of what it actually cost to build. Because they announced the boat and introductory price long before they actually built one. That version of the company is now closed.

I have a lot of these stories.

I have spent years pushing smaller and simpler boats, and wishing they could be built faster and at lower cost. But reality is different, boats are expensive and time consuming.
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Old 10-10-2013, 08:41 PM   #205
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Hee, hee.

(Tad said Brent Swain.)
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:19 PM   #206
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Birth of the Great Harbors

Here's an interesting article by Passagemaker magazine on the birth of the Great Harbor trawlers,....the design and building of the first N37

The Great Harbour | PassageMaker


Some interesting excerpts:
Quote:
The hull, bulkheads, soles, and decks were, in fact, built to ABS workboat standards. The GH37 is not a borderline cruising boat with maximum interior room priced to sell, but a serious workboat- tough cruising boat, with a price that is kept down by eliminating frills, fancy teak brightwork, and complex machinery. The details of the boat were kept simple-the team concentrated instead on developing the boat to use as much beam as possible that would fit in a normal slip, while keeping the overall length down to a manageable and less expensive size. (Per foot slip fees can really add up.)

Want some examples of the workboat strength of this boat? A strong, unitized structure that doesn’t flex and twist in a seaway, with acres of hand-bonded fiberglass…below the rubrail the solid glass hull is laid up with 12 layers of fiberglass (the outer layers glassed with vinylester resin), and there are numerous bottom longitudinals of foam core. This translates into a hull that is minimally one inch thick; in many sections, over two inches thick.

Above the rubrail, the hull is cored with high-tech Nida-Core™, a structural polypropylene honeycomb coring material impervious to rot, water absorption or migration. There are 4 layers of non-woven biaxial fiberglass 2408 cloth on each side of the Nida- Core™ to create a balanced laminate.

The superstructure of the pilothouse has 2 layers of biaxial cloth over each side of the core. (All vertical surfaces use 3/4″ Nida-Core™, and all horizontal areas are constructed with 1-1/8″ Nida-Core™.) This decreasing laminate schedule, and the resulting upper-structure weight, contribute to the overall stability of the vessel, while all areas of the boat are more than tough enough to handle the demands of full-time cruising.
All cored surfaces are also vacuumed-bagged for maximum bonding of all materials. This is advanced glass work indeed, but then again, Mirage also builds airplanes and large highspeed sportfishing boats. Needless to say, Fickett’s team builds a strong boat, with stability and strength where needed


Quote:
It’s a coastal boat, to be sure, but it has more than enough seaworthiness to handle wintering in the Bahamas, or doing the Inside Passage to Alaska, or running down to Mexico.

The base price of the GH37 is around $250,000. If you want a custom interior or an alternate layout, there are many available options.
NOTE: The Great Harbor is heavily constructed fiberglass hull with twin engines l
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Old 10-11-2013, 04:47 AM   #207
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Weather the hull is KISS , steel , aluminum or solid GRP , unless massive fairing is required , the hull is not the time eater.

The big touch time eater is the interior fit and finish and that can be designed out , BUT it requires a simple older style of trim and finish.

The DIY fellow should be able to purchase a DIY running boat with all systems finished and operating , cruise home and add a ton of unobtanium wood with 40 coats of hand rubbed finish , if he requires it.

The retired folks would simply pull the interior trim in a much abused cabin after a decade , roll on a fresh finish , and screw the trim back in place.With water based paint , they could even sleep aboard that evening.
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Old 10-11-2013, 03:30 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian eiland View Post
Here's an interesting article by Passagemaker magazine on the birth of the Great Harbor trawlers,....the design and building of the first N37

The Great Harbour | PassageMaker


Some interesting excerpts:




NOTE: The Great Harbor is heavily constructed fiberglass hull with twin engines l[/LEFT]
Current pricing on the Great Harbour website states "Base Price" for the N37 is $379,000 and for the GH37 is $479,000.
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Old 10-13-2013, 03:39 PM   #209
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....How about a motor-well with an out board? My Pilgrim has an 80HP Sabre. Surely an outboard of similar power would be less costly. Save on a rudder too. Free up a ton of space.
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Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
And what about amidships. This unit was at the Mote Marine Laboratory in Longboat Key, FL. I could see that if exhaust concerns could be safely addressed, a single amidships diesel OB could be engineered to joystick rotate 180 degrees for reverse and handling, A simpler direct drive leg, no reverse could be done in single or twin (stern & amidships) applications, giving pod-like handling. Of course, it's fun to think about, but that would be the end of the KISS philosophy.
For you outboard powered guys, I just ran across this Pilgrim looking riverboat with outboard power....posted over here:
Trawler Forum - View Single Post - Pocket Cruisers
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Old 10-20-2013, 07:48 PM   #210
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In our marina today . Home built based on Dutch canal boat built from 300 plus sheets Doug fir ply 3 layers thick Powered by 2 ea 75 hp beta marine Kabota's . Sorry not the best picture.
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Old 10-20-2013, 08:52 PM   #211
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In our marina today . Home built based on Dutch canal boat built from 300 plus sheets Doug fir ply 3 layers thick Powered by 2 ea 75 hp beta marine Kabota's . Sorry not the best picture.
. Now that's a Great Loop boat if I've ever seen one!
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Old 10-21-2013, 06:11 AM   #212
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. Now that's a Great Loop boat if I've ever seen one!
It was a cool looking boat that's for sure .I misunderstood the owner,my wife said he said he ued 200 plus sheets of plywood .I've been trying to figure out the 300 and can't come up with that many. He said it took him 17 years to build. It's only been in the water a few months. It was built in Ohio . He glassed over the structure with I think he said with 2 layers of 120z mat. It was 58' long and the beam must have been around 15 ft.The bow and stern were rounded off. It had a full size entry door on the stern just above the swim ladder. It was wild looking . The pilot house really gave it a salty look.
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Old 11-07-2013, 08:16 AM   #213
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Pilgrim 50 footer ?

I was just getting ready to post a few more 'construction related' postings when I ran across this,....sure looks like a Pilgrim 40 design, but a 50 footer.
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http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1987/Custom-Trawler--2295184/Sanford/FL/United-States#.UnuYE38o7IV


Says it was built in 1987, so that's about midway thru the production schedule of the original 40's,...1984-1989. I imagine this person was quite intrigued with the original design, but wanted something a little bigger. Haven't been able to sort out the actual designer, nor builder yet


I've talked with this lady broker
Linda Reynolds, lindar@masseyyacht.com


She made these videos:




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Old 11-07-2013, 10:06 AM   #214
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URL="http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1987/Custom-Trawler--2295184/Sanford/FL/United-States#.UnuYE38o7IV"]http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1987/Custom-Trawler--2295184/Sanford/FL/United-States#.UnuYE38o7IV[/URL]
Looks like a great liveaboard or great loop boat.
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Old 11-07-2013, 12:24 PM   #215
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I imagine this person was quite intrigued with the original design, but wanted something a little bigger. Haven't been able to sort out the actual designer, nor builder yet

The designer is listed as Don Wilson (under the Full Specifications Tab on the Yachtworld posting).
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Old 11-07-2013, 01:15 PM   #216
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I saw that, but when I tried to find a boat designer named Don Wilson I got another Ed Wilson down in Tampa, St Pete area, and that turned out to be incorrect. Would have to do more research to find that fellow, or perhaps he is deceased?

I asked the broker if she might know of where a 'layout plan' might be for the vessel, and/or designer/builder info, but have not got an answer to those questions yet.

Strange that the fwd stateroom was not in the photos of the vessel, but does appear on the video of the interior.
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Old 11-07-2013, 01:32 PM   #217
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Strange that the fwd stateroom was not in the photos of the vessel, but does appear on the video of the interior.
My guess is the "functional" stateroom as it is described on the videos isn't the greatest of selling points. It appears the two double berths are cranium to cranium in one open room in the bow, no?
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Old 11-07-2013, 07:09 PM   #218
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I saw this boat some time ago, but I couldn't get over the overwhelming upper deck. I've got no problems with fly-bridges but on a boat like this, I think the style is so classic that unless you're charting dinner groups or tours of canals, why compromise the style of the boat. Here, I've cropped the upper deck in favor of a reasonable fly-bridge, and took the ladder off its dead center position in front of the helm. It's probably what I'd do if the boat was mine.
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Old 11-08-2013, 08:26 AM   #219
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I'd have to agree with you on that 'overwhelming upper deck' on the classic look of the vessel. I even think that lifeline covering around the aft upper deck is a distraction.

I'm still not even happy with the flybridge awning you've retained Healhustler. It just appears too tall, out of proportion. I mentioned this 'flybridge' subject back on this posting #121.
Trawler Forum - View Single Post - Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat

I wonder why all of the sun awnings on these flybridge-equipped Pilgrims appear to be the same design, and also a little too tall for my liking. I would like to look at the possibility that the awning, when retracted, would fold forward across the front edge of the flybridge console

And why must they be so tall? I understand you might wish to stand-up sometimes under this awning, but the great majority of time you are seated under it. Besides if it were lower in height, would it not do a better job at providing shade at lower sun angles. In that case it might require a smaller canopy area to provide the same protection from the sun?

I can understand your desire to remove that unsightly front ladder to the top deck. I imagine that al older fellow ad this boat designed, and it was his desire to have easier access to the top deck rather than transitioning always to the aft deck to climb up to the upper deck, and/or a flybridge control station. Wonder what other alternatives to the single aft deck access are on a private vessel? And perhaps a 'dumb waiter' arrangement is needed to provide snacks and drinks to the skipper at the flybridge controls, in lieu of bringing them up via the aft ladder/stairs?
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Old 11-08-2013, 07:40 PM   #220
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I'm still not even happy with the flybridge awning you've retained Healhustler. It just appears too tall, out of proportion.
I agree, it looks rediculous on this kind of style. But if you're going to have a functional fly-bridge where you can stand to see the corners of the boat while docking, down here in FL you gotta have something to make it practical. For sure, I'd do without it if I could, but I think the boat can handle a fly-bridge the basic FB structure like this OK. A proper mast and boom might help with the balance.
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