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Old 10-07-2013, 04:00 PM   #181
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.....I believe the market for a brand new, similar size/type boat is very small. You probably can't sell enough of them to amortize the tooling costs and turn a profit. One would think if there was money to be made building a similar boat that Gozzard would already be doing it considering the fact that they have experience in building 41 of the boats already.
One of the reasons I was seeking to build the boat in a 'unconventional manner/material', and without the traditional mold tooling costs,.... both the hull and the superstructure.

And if we add in the modern CNC computer methods that were not available in those early days when the Pilgrims were first built, we have the very real possibility of significantly cutting down the man-hrs to built such a vessel.

What would you think of a $200K price tag for a new vessel? ....(std KISS vessel, with custom options additional)
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Old 10-07-2013, 04:47 PM   #182
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Are you looking at a function or the feeling?

That price is a great target.

The simple design and functionality grows on one. The longer it is used the more it is appreciated. This is especially noticeable if one does the majority of the maintenance.

The feeling one gets when the admiral hands over a cocktail takes much less time.

The feel of a Gozzard build is a bargain from what I have seen. There are other very nice boats, but the ones I feel as good on have all been more expensive.


Smiles per dollar - you have your work cut out for you.
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Old 10-07-2013, 04:59 PM   #183
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One of the reasons I was seeking to build the boat in a 'unconventional manner/material', and without the traditional mold tooling costs,.... both the hull and the superstructure.

And if we add in the modern CNC computer methods that were not available in those early days when the Pilgrims were first built, we have the very real possibility of significantly cutting down the man-hrs to built such a vessel.

What would you think of a $200K price tag for a new vessel? ....(std KISS vessel, with custom options additional)
One would hope!! Simpler the better IMHO. With the advent of these new evaporator AC units that only have an exhaust hose, now one can place one of these powerful, cold units in a cabinet, which eliminate the ugliness and height of a RV type AC, which was previously the only alternative to marine ac units with all their complications. All grey water drains above the water line. A sea-chest for all raw water intakes, a single engine preferably- maybe with an outdrive? One molded in fiberglass fuel tank. Apt style appliances for galley. Maybe only a Honda EU 2000 generator or 2 in series when needed for AC current needs. That's the ticket.
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Old 10-07-2013, 06:05 PM   #184
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Why would one want the grey water drains above the waterline?

Would a sea-chest like drain have a downside? I get reducing the number of through hulls.

I wouldn't want the dishwater to be seen flowing when I'm the only one aboard.
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Old 10-07-2013, 06:39 PM   #185
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New AC Units?

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....With the advent of these new evaporator AC units that only have an exhaust hose, now one can place one of these powerful, cold units in a cabinet, which eliminate the ugliness and height of a RV type AC, which was previously the only alternative to marine ac units with all their complications.
Any more details on these units, or a link to read more about them?

Moving heat to water still seems to be more efficient than moving it to the surrounding air?

I did notice these RV style units on the roof of a few trawlers.
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:38 PM   #186
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Why would one want the grey water drains above the waterline?

Would a sea-chest like drain have a downside? I get reducing the number of through hulls.

I wouldn't want the dishwater to be seen flowing when I'm the only one aboard.
Dishwasher and KISS don't seem to equate. The less pumps, the better. The less dish's, pots, and pans the better. Good deep double sink. Gravity fed water even better. The more things you have to go wrong, the more things you have that can go wrong. Most everybody I talk to say they wish their boats were simpler, and didn't have to call in tech people to fix things. It seem's pumps are the number one item that fails on boats, and there's just so many of them.
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:49 PM   #187
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http://www.amazon.com/Haier-Portable...ews/B0037UVHZM
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Any more details on these units, or a link to read more about them?

Moving heat to water still seems to be more efficient than moving it to the surrounding air?

I did notice these RV style units on the roof of a few trawlers.
Many business's down here have them in area's where you don't need central AC's to be cooling area's not occupied. I have one in a bedroom-ice cold. I bought two at Brands Mart. HAIER is the name.
12,500k BTU under $400.00 can't beat that. The beauty of air cooled ac units is that they work perfectly when a boat isn't in the water, or in area's where the water is polluted, or is full of mussels. Etc. These new one's are light, and now that they only have a exhaust hose, NO pan, or drain hoses- it's easy to hide them. Vent it just like a clothes dryer. Perfect for RVS. Those roof units are heavy, add height, are about eight hundred bucks.
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:55 PM   #188
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$200k ??

Be careful you don't engineer all the "quality" out of the boat in your quest for a $200k boat.

Remember, nobody "needs" a boat. Usually people buy boats with disposable income and as such are looking for quality, comfort and a thing of beauty. While a simple, stripped down boat might be able to be produced to a price point, the actual market for such a vessel might be tiny. Computer Aided Design/Manufacturing can only decrease costs by so much. As a matter of fact, I think you will drive up costs substantially by trying to meet customers requests for changes, CAD or no CAD.

Pilgrim #34 cost $221k in 1987, that is $441k in todays dollars. The boat was not very complex in terms of todays expectations.

Peering into my crystal ball: Doing everything in house would require such an initial investment in high tech equipment as to be unaffordable. Farming all the work out that required specialized equipment would put you at the mercy of so many vendors that boats would never be delivered on schedule and costs could/would spiral out of control.

It will be interesting to see what you come up with.
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Old 10-08-2013, 04:25 AM   #189
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Mitsubishi Split Systems - Lowest Price Guarantee = All Sizes‎

www.ductless-air-conditioners.com/‎
LG, Sanyo, Gree, YMGI, Klimaire =

These units are very efficient at air cond and 400% to 500% better at reverse cycle heat. Not limited to 40F for reverse cycle , more like -30F.

One compressor can operate a number of cooling units , BUT many are 240V so would be very limited in marinas that can power them.

The 120V units are as efficient , so multiple units can be done, just more to install.

An option we are exploring is having a 120V unit operating only a single cooling unit at a time.

Should not be a problem to cool the PH during the day and stateroom at night.
Or like load shedding one at a time , with prioritys shifted at a switch.

Weather the inverter that operates these units will operate from most boat noisemakers , or from a boat inverter is yet to be discovered.

To produce a low cost boat the number of labor touch hours must be reduced .

If the hull can be cheaply enough KISS built the Aussies have great computer plywood design, cutting methods.

The pre cut ply for one interior could be shipped , painted and simply assembled egg crate style (all the pieces lock into each other) and dropped in before the deck is glued on.

Most plumbing and wiring would be put in place before installing.

The interior , painted or formica covered would get minor wood trim , as was the norm in the 20s.

Weather you can sell a boat that is simple and does not have 1/2 a forest of internal golly wood is a good question.

PH windows that channel drop (1920s again) can be easily built that never leak or rot out.
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:06 PM   #190
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Cutting Labor Hours

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Originally Posted by drf6 View Post
Be careful you don't engineer all the "quality" out of the boat in your quest for a $200k boat.

Remember, nobody "needs" a boat. Usually people buy boats with disposable income and as such are looking for quality, comfort and a thing of beauty. While a simple, stripped down boat might be able to be produced to a price point, the actual market for such a vessel might be tiny.
Please be aware, I agree with you, "don't engr the quality out of it". I would rather not proceed with the project than build a significantly substandard replica. I would not want a vessel that is any less 'comfortable feeling' than the std Pilgrim. The Herreshoff style wood trim on the interior really needs to be retained for its feeling of warmth and class.

But I want to investigate more thoroughly the possible use of those fabulous 'composite woods' they are using in many home floor applications now. There must be at least 5 different types I've seen with just a short visit to the big hardware chains. I'm sure there are many more varieties. I've seen some wall paneling in hotels, offices, and restaurants in Thailand that I would have sworn were wood, ...but turned out to be composites or veneers. I'm sure these could be formed up in a CNC kit to be applied to the interior. And with the cost of quality real wood these days, and the carpentry skills to cut and install them on each individual vessel, there has to be some savings realized. These products were not widely available for boatbuilders until only the last 7 years.


Quote:
Peering into my crystal ball: Doing everything in house would require such an initial investment in high tech equipment as to be unaffordable. Farming all the work out that required specialized equipment would put you at the mercy of so many vendors that boats would never be delivered on schedule and costs could/would spiral out of control.
At the moment I have in mind a maximum of 3 primary vendors:
1) Steel Hull builder
2) Wood Interior kit fabricator
3) Deck and Cabin builder & final assembly (our own shop)

I would refer you back to this early posting concerning the steel hull fabrication and woodworking:
Trawler Forum - View Single Post - Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat

....and this posting #137
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Very likely just have a steel shop weld up the CNC cut panels and deliver that to use in its frameless style cradle, primed and epoxy coated. Then you are not paying for metal workers (or bulk FG layup workers to sit around waiting for another order.

And the carpentry portion of the job might be farmed out to another 'home building supply group' that needs a little side work to fill out their schedule. I've done a little looking at operations in Thailand, and I know of some in Vietnam that could supply all the interior wood as a 'kit' to be installed. For that matter a USA company might just as well supply the CNC cut wood kit for not that much greater price,...and we'd be employing US workers. I even know personally of some home remodeling friends with a wood shop that could knock this wood kit out rather easily once all the dimensions and shapes were documented.
One of the great labor saving technics that can be employed in boatbuilding is to try and limit the 'ladder time' that consumes so much time in many operations. It literally can double or triple the time required to complete a task. You don't want the guy to have to be climbing on and off the boat to complete a task.

Leaving the hull of the vessel 'deckless' and sitting low down near the shop floor until the last stages can greatly facilitate engine, generator, tanks, plumbing and electrical wiring installations.

Likewise being able to work on the box cabin attached to the main deck and sitting at shop floor level can make this work go much faster, particularly as you add that wood trimming.

In general labor hours for vessel construction can easily reach half or more of the vessel's building cost. I would seek to cut a fair amount of man-hrs to build these vessels by cutting out lots of 'ladder-time', and subcontracting the hull and wood-kits out to two other contractors.
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:31 PM   #191
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....These units are very efficient at air cond and 400% to 500% better at reverse cycle heat. Not limited to 40F for reverse cycle , more like -30F.

One compressor can operate a number of cooling units , BUT many are 240V so would be very limited in marinas that can power them.
The 120V units are as efficient , so multiple units can be done, just more to install.

Should not be a problem to cool the PH during the day and stateroom at night.
Or like load shedding one at a time , with prioritys shifted at a switch.

Weather the inverter that operates these units will operate from most boat noisemakers , or from a boat inverter is yet to be discovered.

An option we are exploring is having a 120V unit operating only a single cooling unit at a time.
Thanks for that info. Would love to hear what you come up with. I think most owners will want some sort of AC, but it will be an 'option' in my thoughts on pricing. We might make strong suggestions.


Quote:
To produce a low cost boat the number of labor touch hours must be reduced .

If the hull can be cheaply enough KISS built the Aussies have great computer plywood design, cutting methods.

The pre cut ply for one interior could be shipped , painted and simply assembled egg crate style (all the pieces lock into each other) and dropped in before the deck is glued on.

Most plumbing and wiring would be put in place before installing.

The interior , painted or formica covered would get minor wood trim , as was the norm in the 20s.
I think you are correct on those points, and I think I addressed most of them in my reply above.

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Weather you can sell a boat that is simple and does not have 1/2 a forest of internal golly wood is a good question.
A couple of years ago I was looking into building a 'floating cottage' in a Thai or Bali style. I was down visiting a friend in Fla and suggest we go down to the International Homebuilders Show in Orlando that year. I was looking for light-weight, water-resistant homebuilding materials. I was blown away by the number of products out there. Regrettably I did not make it to the second day of the show and complete my tour. Sure need to go to another one.


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PH windows that channel drop (1920s again) can be easily built that never leak or rot out.
Do you have some sort of photos or other examples of any of these??

I have been trying to think of, or remember windows for the Pilgrim that would open, not leak, and be relatively easy to construct in multiple numbers that would be required to fully equip a Pilgrim style vessel.
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Old 10-08-2013, 06:19 PM   #192
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One of the great labor saving technics that can be employed in boatbuilding is to try and limit the 'ladder time' that consumes so much time in many operations. It literally can double or triple the time required to complete a task. You don't want the guy to have to be climbing on and off the boat to complete a task.

Leaving the hull of the vessel 'deckless' and sitting low down near the shop floor until the last stages can greatly facilitate engine, generator, tanks, plumbing and electrical wiring installations.

Likewise being able to work on the box cabin attached to the main deck and sitting at shop floor level can make this work go much faster, particularly as you add that wood trimming.

In general labor hours for vessel construction can easily reach half or more of the vessel's building cost. I would seek to cut a fair amount of man-hrs to build these vessels by cutting out lots of 'ladder-time', and subcontracting the hull and wood-kits out to two other contractors.
Boatbuilders have been doing this for 40 years, they still have no customers.

At a minimum you will require 4000 man hours to build 20,000 pounds of boat. At $50 hr.(minimum US shop rate), that's $200k in labour, no shop, no tools, no materials, no management, no insurance, no shipping, no design, no marketing. Note that North Pacific is currently building a bare bones 38' in China and marketed in the PNW at $340k.
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Old 10-08-2013, 09:03 PM   #193
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Might ask where you got that figure from Tad? It seems to me if that's correct, and if labor cost represent approx. 50% of the cost, then most all 40 footers are going to have to sell for $500k. And the Great Harbors are selling too cheap since they weight considerable more for their length.

Found this costing discussion over on Jay Benford's site:
Custom Yachts At Stock Boat Prices? - Articles - Benford Design Group

Quote:
....excerpt....What does the future hold?

The advent of computerized cutting of materials (aluminum, steel or plywood) has opened the possibilities further to make the supplying of kits and low volume production an affordable reality. True, the front-end costs of getting the design and layout for cutting of pieces costs quite a bit more than the traditional design work, but the overall costs for the project can be reduced.

The finest of the classic custom wooden yacht builders produced perhaps two to two-and-a-half pounds of boat, when the labor of building it is compared with the finished displacement.

Contrast this with a boat like our freighter yachts series of designs. A builder can turn out a serviceable and practical cruising boat of this type producing eight to fifteen pounds of boat per man-hour.

Why the difference?

A big part of the answer is due to two factors. One is the difference in design that allows the use of sheet materials to build large portions of the boat. This means that the man-hours for this work are reduced.

The second is that a large amount of the outfitting can be purchased ready-made so that the builder no longer has to custom build all the furniture and cabinetry in the boat, nor the things like the refrigeration system, as the designs use a lot of household type equipment. We've found the household appliances and other equipment to work well and most give long service at reasonable costs.
At his 8 to 15 lbs per man-hr we get 2500 to 1333 man-hrs of labor for the 20,000 lb boat.

I just don't know that I trust any of these 'general cost figures'. I'll try to start rounding up some more specific figures later this year when a few more details are sorted out.
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:13 AM   #194
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Will be away from my library till 1Nov , so the best I can do is attempt to describe the drop window system.

Basically a copper box was built in to each window area. It had a set of channels from the sides of the box that continued up the window sides.

The box drained out to the deck, so any window water did not see or harm the wooden structure of the house.

A leather belt was used to pull the window up to seal it , or with an installed pin lower it to the desired percentage of opening.

Window screening is a second outboard channel, again raised to seal the vessel.

An offshore boat might have a storm window in a 3rd , but no Pilgim style is going ocean voyaging , so a second sealing window could be raised to double pane, and perhaps add reflectivity for HVAC lower energy costs.

The easier handling and perhaps lack of painting and fairing might make aluminum hulls almost as cheap as steel, and faster to sell.

The Fau tug cruisers have zero in common with a real working tug , yet folks think there cute, and buy them.

An easy to care for aluminum hull ,brushed finish , like thousands of French sail cruisers might make the boat stand out and say in the mind of the observer , REAL CRUISER.

A comfortable easy to maintain vessel is perfect for retirement , especially for the retirees with zero interest/skills in boat maint and repairs.

KISS , is the easiest solution , although some items like an easy to maintain fuel tank and system require superior engineering and a few more bucks on the initial build . It would help create the boats mistique .

The modern air cooled split system would be another no maint selling point , no pushing jellies out of the intake is always nice .

An above WL sink drain that is oversized and directly under the galley sink , can be cleared by simply disconnecting at the sink and using a broom handle , no need to work the seacock.

AN RV holding tank style of toilet ,(Sealand or similar) with a direct drop to the waste tank is foolproof and uses 1/10 of a marine head water to flush.

Not all maint can be designed out for disinterested mom & pop , but loads better than todays cookies would be easy..
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:44 AM   #195
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Why would one want the grey water drains above the waterline?

Would a sea-chest like drain have a downside? I get reducing the number of through hulls.

I wouldn't want the dishwater to be seen flowing when I'm the only one aboard.
Just note that I said nothing about a dishwasher. Other than the fact that dishwater coming out an above the waterline outlet would give away the fact I WAS the dishwasher.

Any thoughts on the sea-chest for drainage?

How about a motor-well with an out board? My Pilgrim has an 80HP Sabre. Surely an outboard of similar power would be less costly. Save on a rudder too. Free up a ton of space.
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Old 10-09-2013, 08:23 AM   #196
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I wonder?

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....The easier handling and perhaps lack of painting and fairing might make aluminum hulls almost as cheap as steel, and faster to sell.

An easy to care for aluminum hull ,brushed finish , like thousands of French sail cruisers might make the boat stand out and say in the mind of the observer , REAL CRUISER.
I wonder if the real quality decals they have today could be used to stripe (decorated with color) a bare alum hull??

The slab sided Pilgrim design might not look so nostalgic in just bare alum. But a big stripe decal might break up this slab look.

I wonder?
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:41 AM   #197
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IF you are interested in creating a NEW real low maint cruising boat , the people resources of this board might be used to come up with loads of low maint ideas . A new Thread perhaps ??

Many will have decades of observations to share on concepts and systems that are simple to use , maintain.

Some might only be concepts ,not yet done.

Here is an example , many of these boats will eventually end up as liveaboard dockside cottages .

HEAT is always a huge expense , esp the installation of a good hydronic setup.

Why not plumb the boat with house style baseboard 3/4 copper fin tubing , already built in , probably $200 or so of stuff .
It would make an always high markup builder installed optional heating system easy as pie to add , and assist the next owner if the first lived on the equator and did not chose the option.

The Maineiac would plumb it into the engine cooling loop for free co generated heat.
Fair weather folks could simply ignore it till required, and then bless you for not having to rip up lockers to install toe kick and box heaters.

The sale/resale of a >ready< boat should be easier/higher than the usual production cookie.
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:29 PM   #198
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Might ask where you got that figure from Tad?
30 years of designing and getting boats actually built.

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It seems to me if that's correct, and if labor cost represent approx. 50% of the cost, then most all 40 footers are going to have to sell for $500k. And the Great Harbors are selling too cheap since they weight considerable more for their length.
The Great Harbour numbers do not make sense. Both N37 models are listed at 48000 pounds, yet one clearly has far more interior and costs $100k more than the other. Those boats (N37) carry 7000 pounds of liquids, are those included in the displacement? Unless you know what the light ship weight is you cannot say what the cost per pound is.

Quote:
Found this costing discussion over on Jay Benford's site:
Custom Yachts At Stock Boat Prices? - Articles - Benford Design Group
I have great respect for Jay but this is a bit optimistic. Yes, NC cut parts can speed up a build, but that NC work takes a great deal of time (which is fine if you are doing multiples of the same boat) just like mold building. And the NC parts are only a portion of any complete boat. Actually a good builder of high-end yachts, say Lyman Morse for instance, will produce 3-3.5 pounds of complete boat per hour. Those are custom, one-off builds in composites to the highest standards. A very simple boat from an experienced builder might be at 4-4.5 pounds per hour, but this is rare. I've seen very complex projects down at 3/4 of a pound per man hour.


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At his 8 to 15 lbs per man-hr we get 2500 to 1333 man-hrs of labor for the 20,000 lb boat.

I just don't know that I trust any of these 'general cost figures'. I'll try to start rounding up some more specific figures later this year when a few more details are sorted out.
There is no way anyone can build a complete 20,000 pound boat to a reasonable standard in 1300 hours. That's just not possible. My 20' open motorsailer took 1300 man hours to build. A plywood 16' sport fishermen of my design took 1000+ man hours last year. But it was beautifully built.

If you had 20,000 pounds of steel NC cut you could tack it together and do some (not all) of the finish multipass welding in 1300 hours. But that is not even close to a completed vessel.

Reality is it will take 500 man hours to build every ton (short or metric) of finished boat. Those who ignore this concept are no longer in business. Realize that typically builders of production boats take a loss on the first 10 hulls, to build market share and momentum, after that they start to break even. This is why most of the current survivors are building 100+ of the same model, only with those high production numbers do they start to make money. And those boats are still priced at $25 USD a pound.
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:28 PM   #199
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Vessel Model: Krogen Manatee 36 North Sea
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Fascinating discussion going on here, and just as I was about to give up on it. Great ideas FF, and Salty Dog....I don't think your outboard idea is too far fetched. Given the weight, service-ability and the other advantages you mentioned, I might go for an outboard, perhaps inset a bit with swim platform on either side, but at least here in the US, we'd have to get used to gas again or come up with an approved diesel OB.

As far as an inexpensive, brushed-aluminum Pilgrim....I dunno. I hope you don't use the cheap corrugated stuff.
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healhustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 04:43 AM   #200
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Todays outboards are reliable and efficient enough as propulsion for a boat that will need 50 -75 Hp at the most, and only 15 or 20 for LRC..

Big hassle with outboards is dozens of metals submerged attempting to become a battery.

To locate the outboard in a spot where it can be raised ,TOTALLY out of the water would make the long term concept easier to live with.

The other problem is there are no longer Diesel outboards (thanks air police) so owners would not be able to strut the dock as easily, because few larger boat operators understand the virtues of gasoline in non commercial (few hundred hours a year) applications.
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