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Old 01-07-2016, 04:22 PM   #181
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I like the Kleaman Marine website version.
Kleaman Marine Services

"Okisollo"
Description: Heavily built; impressively sound wooden"trawler" style passagemaker."

To me though; she's a beaut'.
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Old 01-07-2016, 04:38 PM   #182
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Hawgwash : Thanks, I didn't word that well did I?

Conrad: Thanks, But I think Mark has the armament now. I haven't been given
access to Charlton Hessten's gun room yet.

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If you want his gun collection I suspect you'll need a bigger boat Ted!
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Old 01-07-2016, 04:40 PM   #183
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It came to me with a flash of lightening and intense bright white light. There it was the definition of a Trawler boat. Any boat engaged in the use of trawl nets or fully capable of doing so. Definition of a recreational trawler; Any boat called a Trawler by a builder or marine sales person or in lieu of that any boat whose owner thinks he owns a boat he wishes to label so. I think that solves the problem. It's one of those things one has to take the leap of faith for no logic or science involved.
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Old 01-07-2016, 04:41 PM   #184
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I tell people who ask that my boat is a 1936 wooden powerboat. If they want more info, as happened yesterday, I tell them the builder (long out of business) and give a brief description of the style. My boat isn't a recreational trawler. It was actually built as a sport fisher, which meant something totally different back in '36 than it does now.

As far as the term trawler is concerned. I guess it depends on who you are talking to. If you are talking to a professional fisherman (or Marin) it means a fishing boat that tows trawl nets (more commonly called a ground fisher here in Maine). However, if you are talking to a recreational boater it generally means a "slow" boat with nice accommodations as differentiated from a motor yacht or a sport fisher.

Now as to the definition, when I was teaching "definition oriented/fixated people" were one of my pet peeves. As a generalization I found that while they knew the terminology, they seldom understood the concepts behind those definitions. That is all I am going to say on the subject. Take it as you will.
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Old 01-07-2016, 05:20 PM   #185
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Now as to the definition, when I was teaching "definition oriented/fixated people" were one of my pet peeves. As a generalization I found that while they knew the terminology, they seldom understood the concepts behind those definitions.
I don't disagree with that at all. Where the problem occurs is when one DOES understand the concept (premise) behind a definition and knows it to be totally bogus. The term "trawler" as applied to recreational boats is an excellent example of this.

The reasons the marketing folks glommed onto the word trawler were very valid from a purely marketing perspective. Brilliant, actually.

My issue is not with the marketing folks. I don't like to see a language corrupted but they did what they-- and I-- are paid to do and endeavored to shape or alter the perception of a product in the eyes of its market. Sometimes it works (think the "i" concept behind the names iPod, iPhone, iPad, etc.) Sometimes it doesn't (think the Microsoft "Zune" or worse, the double entendre "Yugo.")

I do think creating a perception can be done without bastardizing the language. For example I played a not-insignificant role in the naming of the latest 737 variant, the MAX, and while there are psychological and perceptual reasons behind the use of the word with this particular product, it doesn't fly in the face of a long-established definition.

This is not the case, at least in my opinion, with the use of the word "trawler" in the recreational boating world. Which is why I don't think much of the people who coined this use of the word, however much I admire their skill in manipulating the gullibility of their market, or the people who fell for it all and use the word erroneously.
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Old 01-07-2016, 09:39 PM   #186
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The entire Trawler terminology problem can be solved if someone manufactures and sells small trawl nets maybe one by two feet in size. And boats where the owners or sales people want to believe they are Trawlers just keep the nets aboard and occasionally trawl them off the stern. An unintended by product of this is that maybe some floating debris will be caught in the nets. Now if I trawl a little net I could even call my boat a Trawler and be accurate to some very small degree.
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Old 01-07-2016, 10:05 PM   #187
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Now if I trawl a little net I could even call my boat a Trawler and be accurate to some very small degree.
Yes, you could and there's a good chance you'll scoop up some beer and pop cans and bits of floating line and other junk humans dump in the water thus doing the people who boat on top of it and the creatures that live in it a favor.
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Old 01-07-2016, 10:26 PM   #188
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Will see any trawlers at Trawlerfest?
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Old 01-07-2016, 10:27 PM   #189
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Marin,

You have defended your position concerning the name “trawler” eloquently. However, I think you have a fixation on the use of the boat rather than a description of the type of boat. If a fishing trawler is converted to a yacht is it no longer a trawler? Its configuration is the same but its purpose has changed.

Almost everyone knows what a fighter jet is. If the guns are removed and it is privately flown, isn’t “fighter jet “ still a good description of the airplane? Likewise, is a recreational vehicle being used as an office no longer an RV because it does not go camping? Pickup truck, school bus, airliner, ocean liner and assault rifle are all terms that describe a type as well as a use.

As I said in a previous post, one origin of the use of the term trawler for yachts is Art deFever’s early designs based of his successful fishing trawlers. This was not a marketing strategy. People called them trawlers because they were actually trawlers that were built as yachts and not fishing boats.

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Old 01-07-2016, 10:59 PM   #190
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That's it! We should be called Trawler Yachts! My boat fishes as well as it cruises.
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Old 01-07-2016, 11:07 PM   #191
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The entire Trawler terminology problem can be solved if someone manufactures and sells small trawl nets maybe one by two feet in size. And boats where the owners or sales people want to believe they are Trawlers just keep the nets aboard and occasionally trawl them off the stern.
You must have missed my post #35. Marin wouldn't go for it!
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Old 01-07-2016, 11:12 PM   #192
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Marin,

You have defended your position concerning the name “trawler” eloquently. However, I think you have a fixation on the use of the boat rather than a description of the type of boat. If a fishing trawler is converted to a yacht is it no longer a trawler? Its configuration is the same but its purpose has changed.

Almost everyone knows what a fighter jet is. If the guns are removed and it is privately flown, isn’t “fighter jet “ still a good description of the airplane? Likewise, is a recreational vehicle being used as an office no longer an RV because it does not go camping? Pickup truck, school bus, airliner, ocean liner and assault rifle are all terms that describe a type as well as a use.

As I said in a previous post, one origin of the use of the term trawler for yachts is Art deFever’s early designs based of his successful fishing trawlers. This was not a marketing strategy. People called them trawlers because they were actually trawlers that were built as yachts and not fishing boats.

Paul
I have no problem calling an ex trawler a trawler. In this situation there is a reasonable definition of the term. The boat was designed or used as a Trawler and for greater clarity the EX preface would explain all. One of the glaring problems with just giving a boat the Trawler Moniker is that the name does not come with any description of boat form it was a term that denoted a type of fishing not the hull topsides etc etc. A true Trawler could be SD one or two engines Inboard or OB so long as it trawled nets the name is right. To select a series of Defever or other designers boats as true Trawlers because they emulated a working group to some extent stretches the meaning. By the same logic the aluminum Alaskan inboard outboard boats that can plane and slow down to trawl nets should have all there recreational cousins called Trawlers. Its just a common misnomer not so rare in our language.
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Old 01-07-2016, 11:27 PM   #193
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If you want his gun collection I suspect you'll need a bigger boat Ted!
No, would like to select a few choice pieces though.
Have seen pictures of the room, 1600 sq. ft.

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Old 01-07-2016, 11:27 PM   #194
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Marin,

You have defended your position concerning the name “trawler” eloquently. However, I think you have a fixation on the use of the boat rather than a description of the type of boat. If a fishing trawler is converted to a yacht is it no longer a trawler? Its configuration is the same but its purpose has changed.
Boats tend to be named for their purposes. It's the most intelligent way to define them since boats can have an almost infinite number of shapes, configurations and characteristics.

So you get battleship, patrol torpedo boat, destroyer (shortened from submarine destroyer), seiner, troller, bulk carrier, tanker, trawler, yacht, cabin cruiser, runabout, minesweeper, etc.

The vessel itself tends to be secondary. For example, in our harbor there is a Grand Banks 42 Europa (I'm pretty sure it's a GB42 but I've not been close to it so it could be a GB46.). It looks exactly like every other GB42 Europa on the planet.

But..... for whatever reason, the owner has installed a full-scale salmon trolling rig on the boat. Trolling poles and supports, gurdies, a hull extension on the back I assume to hold the fish, and a commercial license number on side. I've posted photos of it in the past.

So what is it?

Well, it's set up for salmon trolling and the guy apparently uses it for that purpose so that makes it a troller. Is it a Grand Banks, too? Of course it is. That's the make of the boat. Is it a cabin cruiser? Sure, that's what it was designed and built to be and the owner could still use it for that despite all the trolling gear towering over his head. Is it a trawler? No, it's a troller and very obviously so.

Trawling is first and foremost a method of fishing. Just as trolling is or seining or gillnetting or long-lining are. As long as the gear can be installed on a boat, that boat can be used for that purpose. So if we stick a drum and line guides on the aft deck of our Grand Banks and decide to go off long-lining for halibut, the lack of a license notwithstanding, when we are engaged in that type of fishing our boat is a long-liner. Was it designed and built to be a long-liner? No. That's why we don't call it a long-liner now even though we could conceivably use it for one if we put long-line gear on it.

I used to do aerial fish spotting for a group of local fisherman in Hawaii. The boat they used was a big, clunky rectangular aluminum thing about 30 feet long with a tower on the bow and an outboard on the stern. If anything, it was a John-boat on steroids.

Their method of fishing was to motor out near the school of fish I had spotted earlier in the day and then shut off the motor and start rowing. A kid went into the water with one end of the net and the rest of the guys rowed the boat around the school under my direction from the plane I was flying about 500 feet above them.

When the net was all the way around the school they pulled on the purse lines, bagged the net, and hauled it aboard. The net was a purse seine and while they were using that rude and crude boat in this manner it was a purse seiner. Not much resemblance to the snazzy Alaska limit seiners in the boatyard in our harbor right now, but the function was exactly the same.

So it is with a trawler. It's a boat that uses trawl gear to catch fish. It can be commercial, it can be private, it can be outboard powered, it can be diesel powered, it can be slow or fast, it can be whatever configuration of boat one wants it to be. The only requirement per the correct definition is that it is used to deploy, tow, and retrieve a trawl net of which there are a number of varieties and configurations.

A boat that is NOT equipped with trawl gear is not a trawler. "Trawler" does not define the shape of a boat. It does not define its hull type. It does not define its weight. It does not define its length or beam. It does not define its deadrise. It does not define its sheer. It does not define its power. It does not define its speed. It does not define its living quarters. It does not define how many heads it has on board. It does not define what its pilothouse looks like.

So what the hell does it define about a boat? Turns out it consistently defines only one thing--- the boat is used to carry, deploy, tow, and retrieve one or more trawl nets.

It's a staggeringly simple concept which is why it's so amazing that some people don't get it.

So to your question.... what to call a boat that was built to be a trawler but isn't one anymore? Well, if one was really unyielding it shouldn't be called a trawler anymore because it's not engaged in that activity. But I'm not that unyielding. I would consider a boat that was built to be a trawler and actually was one before being turned into a cruising boat to be deserving of the name trawler even if it isn't serving that purpose anymore. I wouldn't call it a trawler myself, but would use the term "converted trawler" when trying to describe it.

Our good boating friends have a lobsterboat. Do they use it for lobstering? No. But it's hull was built to be a commercial lobsterboat by a company that builds commercial lobsterboats in New England. It just so happens that this particular hull was bought by a fellow who shipped it out here and put more of a cruiser house on it. So my friend calls it a custom lobsterboat and that seems fair to me.

But a boat that was designed to be a recreational boat from the outset with no thought to using it for any of the commercial-style fishing methods is not a fishing boat and so shouldn't be called one. I haven't heard any of the Bayliner or CHB or GB or Mainship owners in our marina referring to their boats as seiners or longliners or trollers (with the exception I assume of the fellow that owns the GB I described earlier). So what makes them trawlers but not longliners?

The reality is that they are neither.
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Old 01-07-2016, 11:59 PM   #195
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For heavens sake. Why does this terminology thing have to be so hard..? I'll tell you why. Marin's right in one thing. They are not trawlers..! They are, (as I have posted before), trawler style coastal cruisers. Maybe we have a more logical approach than North America here Downunder for once..?

When someone asks me what kind of boat I have, I just tell them it's a trawler style coastal cruiser, and in that one statement they know roughly it's size and hull shape from the trawler bit...they know it is capable of going well off-shore, from the coastal bit, and they know it is a powered vessel, or otherwise it would be a yacht.

Down here sailing boats are yachts. Except if it is in the 70/80' plus size it might be called a super yacht, which most, (but not all), are powered vessels. Boats like Brian's 50' Ocean Alexander 'Insequent', and bigger are not a trawler style, but here are called 'luxury, &/or recreational cruisers'. (Not 'heavy', and no confusion with naval). The tiny powered boat in the photo in an earlier post is a perfect example of a small cabin cruiser in our part of the world. See, it's easy...
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Old 01-08-2016, 01:59 AM   #196
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See, it's easy...
Taint nutten EZ bout getten hundres o' ovr testostoroned ol cappins tagether fer nominal-nomenclature dissssussssions en referen ta wat boatie dey prefer ta ply wit.

Jus Sayen!

PS: Once again; Marin wins for most words on a thread that has been written for no really good reason at all! Except maybe demonstration/reasoning that Pavlov's canine repeat-domain-doings can be transferred to anyplace of mental capabilities by hypnotic (and sometimes dark) smoke and mirrors. Ya know - deceptive advertising that makes things seem, look, sound different than they really are; i.e., reality!
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Old 01-08-2016, 08:06 AM   #197
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You guys are most entertaining..10 pages of mutually assured thread destruction in 4 days..Impressive.....

Now, a line is a lot easier to throw off the stern than a net, and then you could call it the Trolling Forum...

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TROLLING.....verb
gerund or present participle: trolling

1.fish by trailing a baited line along behind a boat.
"we trolled for mackerel"

2.informal
make a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.
"if people are obviously trolling then I'll delete your posts and do my best to ban you"
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Old 01-08-2016, 08:57 AM   #198
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Greetings,
Mr. o. With the words bandied about in the ~200 posts in this thread, BOTH definitions would equally apply.

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Old 01-08-2016, 09:10 AM   #199
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Greetings,
Mr. o. With the words bandied about in the ~200 posts in this thread, BOTH definitions would equally apply.

Yes, that was the pun.

Ironically this forum has a unique flavor in that the "T" word whips up the waters like no other, but "Anchors" to a lesser extent, and I see no such verve for "Varnish vs Cetol", or another all time favorite: "Guns on boats", topics I have seen capable of delaminating even the most tightly moderated fora.....
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Old 01-08-2016, 11:10 AM   #200
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I guess I have a Converted Trawler . Yeah that's it and it doesn't sound to bad either .
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