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Old 02-02-2016, 02:10 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by kulas44 View Post
Bonding of underwater metals was invented because of wood boats. Much as I like and admire sdowney, he is completely wrong in his advice to isolate. Delignification is caused by dc electricity travelling thru the wood, like a semi conductor. It becomes visible around what or whichever metal component it is going thru. Angle hair is the result. If left unresolved the wood around the thru hull will eventually become soft enough to implode, sinking the boat. The metal can be isolated by removing it, completely sealing the wood with urethane or epoxy and reinstalling the fitting using polyurethane adhesive. Bonding correctly would be better. And, I am not a proponent of bonding in fiberglass boats. Only wood.
It is not just my idea to unbond underwater metals on wooden boats. I have read that advice from other wood boat owners.
Bonding vs No Bonding [Archive] - The WoodenBoat Forum

I did have that delignification around the raw water engine thru hulls when I first got the boat. Wood looked somewhat cheesy. I cleaned out all the soft wood and saturated epoxied the area. Glued in a plug of wood using PL and sawdust and a screwed on backing plate of wood, then overcoated with permaflex. In 2014, I redid the repair, removed the backing plate entirely and sealed it inside and out, no permaflex used and no one would ever know it had been there.

I moved the thru hulls to an area I could reach and they are now nice Apollo bronze SS lever handle valves. I have great thread contact at least 4 turns on is all you need and I have 5, plus I sealed the threads with permatex #2. ( I actually improved the thread contact using a steel pipe fitting and valve grinding compound on the bronze thru hull, so it helped taper the thru hull threads.)

The original location was in an impossible to reach location, if there was ever a problem with the oem gate valves leaking...

None of the other numerous thru hulls showed any wood issues.

Adding that those engine thru hull are OEM. Originally had gate valves on top. I switched to Apollo valves. And I never understood people talking up the straight versus taper thread argument, and claiming only a turn or two possible when mine were always so well fitted even before my improvement. Could it be that the OEM had those threads modded already a little, I do not know. They are in great shape, thick pipe seems like about 5/16 wall. thread pitch is identical, the difference is a thru hull is straight, the other valves are tapered. My pipe size is 1.25. Bottom are scoops.
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Old 02-02-2016, 04:30 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Bob Cofer View Post
Those are the ones. I will follow you on the GB Forum, too many woody haters on here.
Possibly some of us have experience on both sides of the fence. The question as started by Binkley was basically where can he find a guy to rubber stamp the wooden vessel he likes. Not necessarily the way I chose to buy wooden vessels in the old days but seems to be OK with Binkley.

I have been on the older design GB woodies, one of which is a master piece project boat. I know the effort, cost and yard professional help that this gem required. Staggering for many but not the owner.

I've also been on a similar size and design DeFever woodie that was already nicely redone and properly maintained. About one half the cost to purchase this one vs redo the GB,

My point, so many variables for logical TF discussion and discourse. Binkley will figure it out once he puts a good estimate together for updating and rebuilding and then doubles it.
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Old 02-02-2016, 04:59 PM   #43
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My life has always been that way and not regrets. I could buy a glass boat but not a boat of this size or with this character. It's a project and I am going to be living right in the middle of, sanding, buffing, painting and immersing myself in all the boat things that I can.
For people who know what they're getting into with a wood boat and have the skills, knowledge and tools to keep it in good condition--- or can afford to pay other people to do it for them--- I think it's admirable that they are willing to to do this. Otherwise all these great boats would gradually be lost to us.

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By the way, I want the PT. what a ride that must have been. Two big 12 cylinder crosleys, manual transmission, lots of guns and TORPEDOS. OMG. We just had sling shots on the delta compaired to that. I was born to late.
Slight correction. PTs were powered by three, 1,200 hp (later 1,500 hp) Packard 4M-2500 V-12 engines, not two Crosleys.

In the Elco PTs, the center engine was direct drive and was mounted conventionally in the engine room. The two wing engines were mounted backwards and drove their props through V-drives. This allowed Elco to fit three very large engines into a relatively small space. (The cruiser we have in Europe has the same engine arrangement for the same reason)

The throttles on the PTs were operated by the skipper at the helm but the transmissions were operated by a motormac riding in a tractor seat facing forward on the end of the inboard rocker box of the starboard wing engine. (photo)

A few years ago my wife and I were invited to ride on the only restored PT powered by its original-type engines. It's a Higgins boat so it's not the right type of PT for me; the book I'm writing takes place on an Elco. But my number one rule in writing is write what you know and I wanted to hear, feel and smell these engines in full operation in person so I could write about them accurately. Quite an experience.

The three Packards in a Higgins are mounted conventionally with direct drive. This makes for a large and easy-to-get-around-in engine room but it forces the crew areas to be much smaller and less user-friendly than on an Elco. This was a major factor in the Elco being more popular with its crews than the Higgins.
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Old 02-02-2016, 09:36 PM   #44
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My only issue then is what do I do with the bonding strap. But, that depends if I do indeed maintain and upgrade the bonding system. This issue is still unresolved and are explained in full in the GB forum as well. Check it out.
Bob[/QUOTE]




Possibly the copper strap is worsening the hair development. If the strap is removeable then maybe a thin plastic sheet secured with the strap screw would insulate and reduce hair development. At least it would reduce any interaction between the strap and the salty wood.

I often use those plastic cutting sheets from the kitchen counter, usually scoff the used ones. They are easily cut and are tough.
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Old 02-04-2016, 07:38 PM   #45
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Here ya go, twin Packard V12s running in a PT


pt boat engines - Bing video
Sweet music to my ears. Wonder how many guys had hearing loss because of those bad boys. You still see some of the Crosleys on the front of those big professional tractor pullers.
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Old 02-04-2016, 07:58 PM   #46
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My only issue then is what do I do with the bonding strap. But, that depends if I do indeed maintain and upgrade the bonding system. This issue is still unresolved and are explained in full in the GB forum as well. Check it out.
Bob



Possibly the copper strap is worsening the hair development. If the strap is removeable then maybe a thin plastic sheet secured with the strap screw would insulate and reduce hair development. At least it would reduce any interaction between the strap and the salty wood.

I often use those plastic cutting sheets from the kitchen counter, usually scoff the used ones. They are easily cut and are tough.[/QUOTE]

I know the product and it is tough. If keep the bonding I will remove it altogether and replace with ABCY spec'd insulated conductor.The jury is still out on this issue. I have three surveys scheduled for next week and will follow the recommendations suggested. The surveyor hired actually owned a sister ship. So I will be picking his brain on this issue and a whole lot more I suspect.
Seems like all the pieces are falling into place quite nicely.
Two big days coming up, Tuesday is the in boat inspections and Wednesday sea trial and hull out. Fingers crossed but confident I found the big problems above the water line. Short of a bunch of bad planks she will get her new "Moniker" and some TLC in the yard.
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:14 PM   #47
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For people who know what they're getting into with a wood boat and have the skills, knowledge and tools to keep it in good condition--- or can afford to pay other people to do it for them--- I think it's admirable that they are willing to to do this. Otherwise all these great boats would gradually be lost to us.

Slight correction. PTs were powered by three, 1,200 hp (later 1,500 hp) Packard 4M-2500 V-12 engines, not two Crosleys.

In the Elco PTs, the center engine was direct drive and was mounted conventionally in the engine room. The two wing engines were mounted backwards and drove their props through V-drives. This allowed Elco to fit three very large engines into a relatively small space. (The cruiser we have in Europe has the same engine arrangement for the same reason)

The throttles on the PTs were operated by the skipper at the helm but the transmissions were operated by a motormac riding in a tractor seat facing forward on the end of the inboard rocker box of the starboard wing engine. (photo)

A few years ago my wife and I were invited to ride on the only restored PT powered by its original-type engines. It's a Higgins boat so it's not the right type of PT for me; the book I'm writing takes place on an Elco. But my number one rule in writing is write what you know and I wanted to hear, feel and smell these engines in full operation in person so I could write about them accurately. Quite an experience.

The three Packards in a Higgins are mounted conventionally with direct drive. This makes for a large and easy-to-get-around-in engine room but it forces the crew areas to be much smaller and less user-friendly than on an Elco. This was a major factor in the Elco being more popular with its crews than the Higgins.
I am never disappointed by a "Marin" post.
And I apologize for the error, I knew they were packards but being from Cincinnati I had to get a plug in for him.
And one more small point.
The statement you made in a earlier post about your knowledge of boats " could fit on the head of a pin ". I believe that the head of that pin is about the size of one of those "Crosleys"

Oh, and that guy in the picture - WOW - what a ride that would be.
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:16 PM   #48
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Wonder how many guys had hearing loss because of those bad boys.
A lot. I've interviewed hundreds of PT vets as research for my current project and many of the ex-motormacs were wearing hearing aids which they all attributed to the hours they spent in the engine rooms of these boats. They had a lot of stories about how their messed-up hearing immediately after a mission caused them to get into some pretty humorous situations on shore. Eventually the noise took a permanent toll.
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:18 PM   #49
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Hey Bob looks like everything is moving in the right direction . On replacing the planks what lumber will you use? I think 5/4 mahogany was used in the original build.I would think it needs to be air dried not kiln dried .
Love the new avatar
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:24 PM   #50
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A lot. I've interviewed hundreds of PT vets as research for my current project and many of the ex-motormacs were wearing hearing aids which they all attributed to the hours they spent in the engine rooms of these boats. They had a lot of stories about how their messed-up hearing immediately after a mission caused them to get into some pretty humorous situations on shore. Eventually the noise took a permanent toll.
Can I preorder the book? Please?
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:33 PM   #51
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Hey Bob looks like everything is moving in the right direction . On replacing the planks what lumber will you use? I think 5/4 mahogany was used in the original build.I would think it needs to be air dried not kiln dried .
Love the new avatar
You are sounding a bitt more chipper today, good.
As close to original equipment as possible, if possible. You are the "wood" expert so I know who my go to guy will be. Think I can get a few 12 footers on top of my VW and drive back down here?
My wife now thinks she has to ride on top do the starboard engine
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:36 PM   #52
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The statement you made in a earlier post about your knowledge of boats " could fit on the head of a pin ". I believe that the head of that pin is about the size of one of those "Crosleys"
Nice of you to say but the reality is that even though we've been doing this kind of boating for a bit over seventeen years now my boating knowledge doesn't amount to much. I know about things on our boat because we've had to deal with them but when it comes to engines, electrical, etc. systems I don't have much to offer unless I've learned something specific from the folks on the GB forum or from the people in our diesel shop, electrical shop, a shipwright we've hired in the past, the yard we use, and so on.

We recently had a mechanical issue on our boat that stumped not just me but the yard for some three months while we chased down one thing after another. And we no sooner got that dealt with than a fuel issue cropped up which, while it's been dealt with, still has all of us including the fuel expert who worked on the boat this week, completely baffled as to the cause.

If I have anything going for me it's an ability to remember what I've been told, whether it's one of our engineers explaining one way an elevator trim tab can fail and how to prevent it or the best way to repair deck seams on our boat.

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Oh, and that guy in the picture - WOW - what a ride that would be.
Actually it wasn't that bad according to the Elco motormacs I've talked to. The engines were fairly far aft in that boat so the ride was surprisingly smooth.

Interestingly, according to many of the vets I've talked to, one of the most terrifying thing about crewing on an Elco PT was going to the bathroom. Not peeing--- they just went over the side while hanging onto something, usually a torpedo or torpedo tube.

But taking a dump was truly scary because of the jury-rigged toilet setup many of the crews put together on their boats. The reason for this was at speed on the open ocean the crew's head, which was in the fore-peak of the boat, was virtually unusable the motion was so violent. I was told stories about guys who had both legs and both arms broken by being tossed around in that compartment when the boat accelerated to speed after they went in there.

Some crews had considerate officers who would let crew members use the head in the officers' quarters which was just a few feet forward of the middle of the boat and so had a smoother ride. But some officers held to the "officers' quarters are off-limits to enlisteds" protocol. Hence the jury-rigged affair at the stern of the boat which could be so terrifying to use that most guys did everything they could to hold it in until the boat was going slow.
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:53 PM   #53
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You are sounding a bitt more chipper today, good.
As close to original equipment as possible, if possible. You are the "wood" expert so I know who my go to guy will be. Think I can get a few 12 footers on top of my VW and drive back down here?
My wife now thinks she has to ride on top do the starboard engine
The only mahogany we have on the yard is kiln dried African mahogany, not a good choice. The grain is not straight enough and it can get kinda heavy. I used it on the interior on William. I think air dried Phillipine mahagony would be best. It's out there and I'm sure there is some around down there . You may need to check with a lumber importer around New Orleans .
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Old 02-04-2016, 09:20 PM   #54
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Possibly some of us have experience on both sides of the fence. The question as started by Binkley was basically where can he find a guy to rubber stamp the wooden vessel he likes. Not necessarily the way I chose to buy wooden vessels in the old days but seems to be OK with Binkley.

I have been on the older design GB woodies, one of which is a master piece project boat. I know the effort, cost and yard professional help that this gem required. Staggering for many but not the owner.

I've also been on a similar size and design DeFever woodie that was already nicely redone and properly maintained. About one half the cost to purchase this one vs redo the GB,

My point, so many variables for logical TF discussion and discourse. Binkley will figure it out once he puts a good estimate together for updating and rebuilding and then doubles it.
Actually, my intent was to find a qualified person to either confirm or deny my suspicions with regard to the status of this particular boat. If I wanted a rubber stamp I could get that at Staples.
I am investing in my suspicion that this boat is unlike the other 25 or so I have looked at to date. Investing a few grand in multiple surveyors, hull out and sea trial over a two day period is not a desire for someone to stamp "OK" on the bow.
So, no I can walk away but I truly hope it does not come to that. I have spent the better part of a week crawling around the bilges, climbing over the top of the pilot house and looking for rot in the lazerette. Perhaps the 3 grand I'm spending on the experts will prove me wrong, and then I will walk, and continue the quest. Sorry for the enthusiasm.
Could it be cloudy in Arizona?
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Old 02-04-2016, 09:25 PM   #55
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The only mahogany we have on the yard is kiln dried African mahogany, not a good choice. The grain is not straight enough and it can get kinda heavy. I used it on the interior on William. I think air dried Phillipine mahagony would be best. It's out there and I'm sure there is some around down there . You may need to check with a lumber importer around New Orleans .
The yard that is a old one here in Tampa, The were known a NOA Marine but are now a part of the Endevor group. The folks there are knowledgeable in the wood boat arena and I'm sure they have sources for what we will need.
But I still want to come to Memphis and see William.
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Old 02-04-2016, 09:48 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Nice of you to say but the reality is that even though we've been doing this kind of boating for a bit over seventeen years now my boating knowledge doesn't amount to much. I know about things on our boat because we've had to deal with them but when it comes to engines, electrical, etc. systems I don't have much to offer unless I've learned something specific from the folks on the GB forum or from the people in our diesel shop, electrical shop, a shipwright we've hired in the past, the yard we use, and so on.

We recently had a mechanical issue on our boat that stumped not just me but the yard for some three months while we chased down one thing after another. And we no sooner got that dealt with than a fuel issue cropped up which, while it's been dealt with, still has all of us including the fuel expert who worked on the boat this week, completely baffled as to the cause.

If I have anything going for me it's an ability to remember what I've been told, whether it's one of our engineers explaining one way an elevator trim tab can fail and how to prevent it or the best way to repair deck seams on our boat.

Actually it wasn't that bad according to the Elco motormacs I've talked to. The engines were fairly far aft in that boat so the ride was surprisingly smooth.

Interestingly, according to many of the vets I've talked to, one of the most terrifying thing about crewing on an Elco PT was going to the bathroom. Not peeing--- they just went over the side while hanging onto something, usually a torpedo or torpedo tube.

But taking a dump was truly scary because of the jury-rigged toilet setup many of the crews put together on their boats. The reason for this was at speed on the open ocean the crew's head, which was in the fore-peak of the boat, was virtually unusable the motion was so violent. I was told stories about guys who had both legs and both arms broken by being tossed around in that compartment when the boat accelerated to speed after they went in there.

Some crews had considerate officers who would let crew members use the head in the officers' quarters which was just a few feet forward of the middle of the boat and so had a smoother ride. But some officers held to the "officers' quarters are off-limits to enlisteds" protocol. Hence the jury-rigged affair at the stern of the boat which could be so terrifying to use that most guys did everything they could to hold it in until the boat was going slow.
I gotta have a copy of this book. It's gotta be fantastic.
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Old 02-04-2016, 09:56 PM   #57
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The yard that is a old one here in Tampa, The were known a NOA Marine but are now a part of the Endevor group. The folks there are knowledgeable in the wood boat arena and I'm sure they have sources for what we will need.
But I still want to come to Memphis and see William.

BB , Joy and I are both from Memphis but now we live in Paris, Tn and William is 15 minutes away on the TN River mm 66.1 at Paris Landing State Park .
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Old 02-04-2016, 09:59 PM   #58
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I gotta have a copy of this book. It's gotta be fantastic.
Well, don't hold your breath. I've been working on it for some 7 or 8 years now with a big gap to write a book I was hired to write which was finally published last year.

And Boeing has this silly notion that I should show up and do something for the paycheck they're giving me. That's' why from start to finish the creation of my Kenmore Air Harbor book took ten years although there was a write-for-hire book in the middle of that project, too.

However I'm closing in on calling it a day with career #2 and beginning career #3 so I'm hoping I'll be able to dive back in and finish the PT book. People who've read what I've written so far seem to really like it which is encouraging.

Of course writing a book is just half the battle, and perhaps the easier half at that. Getting it published and out there is a whole different deal.

The only sure bet is it won't see the light of day unless I finish it so the immediate task is pretty obvious.
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Old 02-05-2016, 09:33 AM   #59
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Very interesting drift, but back to the OP, the "white fuzz" on the wood is usually delignification. Its not caused by localized interaction with moisture, its caused by the dc current that is travelling thru the wood "semiconductor" and manifests itself at the wood metal interface, hence the reason for bonding, to circumvent the semicondutor.
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Old 02-05-2016, 05:07 PM   #60
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So, is " white fuzz " the same as hair? We may be talking about two different things. And some of the hair is no where close to the bonding straps.

Bob
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