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Old 02-01-2016, 08:22 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Bob Cofer View Post
One thing to check that is a bit off the beaten path is the block of timber that the stern tube is bolted to. Use an awl and don't be afraid to push hard around every lag. Not an impossible repair but quite time consuming.

Bob
Are you referring to the prop shaft tubes? Sorry I'm still in the learning curve.
Another question for this forum is about corrosion and bonding issues with regard to the bronze thru hulls and the GB bonding system installation when they built the wood boats. I have been talking with several woodie owners on the GB forum and there are some issues that have surfaced from this building process over the years.
Your thoughts please.
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Old 02-01-2016, 12:27 PM   #22
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I sold a listing of mine two years ago, a 1939 90' Mathis Trumpy. It was managed for the owner by a wooden boat surveyor, Henry Pickersgill, 352-650-5579, and he is in Florida. When I got the Trumpy under agreement I searched for surveyors, and Henry's name came up multiple times, but he could not do it as he worked for the seller.
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Old 02-01-2016, 06:38 PM   #23
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Those are the ones. I will follow you on the GB Forum, too many woody haters on here.
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Old 02-01-2016, 09:11 PM   #24
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Bonding of underwater metals was invented because of wood boats. Much as I like and admire sdowney, he is completely wrong in his advice to isolate. Delignification is caused by dc electricity travelling thru the wood, like a semi conductor. It becomes visible around what or whichever metal component it is going thru. Angle hair is the result. If left unresolved the wood around the thru hull will eventually become soft enough to implode, sinking the boat. The metal can be isolated by removing it, completely sealing the wood with urethane or epoxy and reinstalling the fitting using polyurethane adhesive. Bonding correctly would be better. And, I am not a proponent of bonding in fiberglass boats. Only wood.
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Old 02-01-2016, 09:18 PM   #25
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I sold a listing of mine two years ago, a 1939 90' Mathis Trumpy. It was managed for the owner by a wooden boat surveyor, Henry Pickersgill, 352-650-5579, and he is in Florida. When I got the Trumpy under agreement I searched for surveyors, and Henry's name came up multiple times, but he could not do it as he worked for the seller.
Today I did check the tube mounting blocks in the lazerette and they looked great. I was surprised that they were not bonded at the top. I intend to pay special attention to all the externally mounted running gear at hull out. Any other suggestions will be appreciated.
And thanks for your support. I have had a pretty good response to this thread on this forum and the GB*forum as well.
I really think wood boats are a mystery to most folks in a market that's is dominated by fiberglass. 20 years ago I suspect the general boating public would have had different attitude. And, the 1500 or so wood GB's out there would be more appreciated than they are. You have to admire a boat that is 48 years old and still capable of performing as it did when new. All the systems are original. How many glass boats can make that claim. We have not quite reached that point yet with FRG, but judging by the condition of the FRG boats that I have looked at that are anywhere close to the age of this wood boat, there is no comparison. These boats are the best value out there. If you are willing to learn the systems and the particular needs of wood then why the heck not do it.
Besides that, I have the attitude that I am not the owner, just the custodian of a classic and happy to do what is necessary to maintain and eventually pass her on to another liked minded lucky fellow.
Sorry to bloviate but I am fired up and very happy to have found this boat, SO FAR. Tomorrow may be another story as I dive into ( no pun intended ) the engine room. Pulling all the covers and inspecting all 11 thru hulls from the top and hopefully posting the happy results tomorrow.
It's either this.
Or this.
Either way I'm a more knowledgeable person and have had a great time doing this project.
Stay tuned to this thread....the saga continues.

BB
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Old 02-01-2016, 10:05 PM   #26
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Bonding of underwater metals was invented because of wood boats. Much as I like and admire sdowney, he is completely wrong in his advice to isolate. Delignification is caused by dc electricity travelling thru the wood, like a semi conductor. It becomes visible around what or whichever metal component it is going thru. Angle hair is the result. If left unresolved the wood around the thru hull will eventually become soft enough to implode, sinking the boat. The metal can be isolated by removing it, completely sealing the wood with urethane or epoxy and reinstalling the fitting using polyurethane adhesive. Bonding correctly would be better. And, I am not a proponent of bonding in fiberglass boats. Only wood.
GB must have had the same thoughts. There is a very robust bonding strap running along the tops of some of the stringers and down the top of the keel. The system is still in place on this boat and looks pretty good. The only problem is that it is not insulated from the stringers or the keel. There is " hair " all along this strap and I have been told the hair is due to the strap. I have also been told that the hair is a natural result of a wood boat being in salt water. That the hair is not rot. The hair is the process of damp wood evaporation that normally occurs due to the moisture reaching the surface of the wood and evaporating. As evaporation takes place the salt from the water drying expandes and breaks the fibers in the wood creating hair. This makes sense but does not explain why it appears only where the strap is present. I will investigate the engine room bonding tomorrow.
The owner has been fantastic and has granted me full access to the boat to allow me to resolve these issues. Additionally this and the GB forum has been very supportive in offering the combined knowledge of the active boating community. Hopefully we can collectively resolve this issue.
So at this point the answer is still unclear. My hope is some wise person will have a explanation that resolves all the contradictions.
The quest continues.

Thanks to all and to you for your input.
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Old 02-01-2016, 10:08 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by yachtbrokerguy View Post
I sold a listing of mine two years ago, a 1939 90' Mathis Trumpy. It was managed for the owner by a wooden boat surveyor, Henry Pickersgill, 352-650-5579, and he is in Florida. When I got the Trumpy under agreement I searched for surveyors, and Henry's name came up multiple times, but he could not do it as he worked for the seller.
Calling him tomorrow. Many thanks.
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Old 02-01-2016, 10:12 PM   #28
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Why not add a mechanical survey, worth doing with twins and genset. They often pick up other things, like shafts, props etc. Unless of course mechanical is your own area.
Yes, that is in the play book as well.
Thanks for posting.
This is a great venue and all you guys have helped me get to this point. Otherwise I would have been doing this.......
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Old 02-01-2016, 10:21 PM   #29
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BinkleyBoat--- I'm afraid what I know about boats wouldn't cover the head of a pin. I know a lot about our boats simply from living with them. But mostly what I'm good at is repeating good information I've learned from others.

If you you have not already done so I'd recommend joining the Grand Banks Owners Forum Grand Banks Owner's Resources. The founder of that forum, Bob Lowe, owned for many years a beautifully restored (his work) Alaskan 45 named Dreamer, one of only a few manufactured, five I think. There is very little about wood GBs (and fiberglass GBs) that he doesn't know. In addition there are a lot of wood GB owners on that forum, some who have resurrected their boats from near-wrecks.

While any boat, wood, glass, or metal, can be reduced to junk by neglect and abuse, what wood GBs have going for them is they were manufactured with quality materials and quality work and, most important, consistency. So the boat you are looking at will have an enviable heritage. It remains to be seen how well that heritage has been preserved.
Bob Lowe had indeed responded to my posts on the GB forum. Thanks for the suggestion.
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Old 02-01-2016, 10:49 PM   #30
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BB could it be that this hair or broken fibers only shows up around where the strap is something as simple as condensation forming on the strap ?
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Old 02-01-2016, 10:50 PM   #31
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I really think wood boats are a mystery to most folks in a market that's is dominated by fiberglass. 20 years ago I suspect the general boating public would have had different attitude.
I think if you substituted the number "40" for "20" it might be a more accurate statement.

Wood takes a lot of care, there's no way around it. By "care" I don't necessarily mean one has to work on it constantly, but one has to be aware of it constantly and ensure that things aren't happening that will cause one to have to work on it constantly.

While we never had any thought of purchasing a wood boat when we decided to buy our own cabin cruiser, the broker we hired to find a boat for us had a pretty good comparison summary I thought.

He said (I'm paraphrasing) "If you berth your boat outside and have a fiberglass boat and have to leave it for six months, when you come back it will be absolutely filthy but that's about it. If you have a wood boat, when you come back all sorts of problems may well have gotten a toehold and if you don't do anything about them right away the problems will get worse at an accelerating rate."

A generality, obviously. But over the 17-plus years we've had our cruiser we've had a few wood boats around us and the validity of our broker's statement has been well demonstrated.

Wood is a great material to build a boat from. But most recreational boaters don't want to screw with it. Or perhaps more accurately, they don't want to worry about having to screw with it.

Some years ago the maintenance director of Air Malta, in an interview about the 737s the airline flew at the time, told me their phrase for the 737 was "fly and forget." The plane was that reliable for them.

Fiberglass boats are the same way. Sure, the systems and engines and stuff can cause problems, but they're the same systems and engines and stuff that are in a wood cruiser.

But fiberglass--- being inert--- just sits there, year after year, and does nothing. Wood is not inert. Its cells are susceptible to moisture, dryness, heat, cold, deterioration, rot, even insects. Most of the structural problems fiberglass cruisers are susceptible to are caused by something other than the fiberglass. Wood coring seems to be the most common culprit.

Sure, fiberglass hulls can experience blistering but blisters are not only non-structural (in most cases) but they're relatively easy to fix.

I have nothing aesthetically against a well-designed (by my standards) wood boat. Almost all of my favorite individual boats over the decades have been wood (four examples below).

A past neighbor of ours had a big Hacker Craft runabout that he kept on a trailer inside an addition built onto his garage. The thing was absolutely gorgeous. And protected 99 percent of the time from rain, sun, cold, and UV, it stayed gorgeous.

There is a 40-something foot Chris Craft dating from (I assume) the 1950s or 60s that has been in our part of the harbor now for about 15 years. It had been boathouse kept in Seattle until a fellow bought it, drove it north, and lived on it in an outside slip for a number of years. He kept after it and it always looked quite good.

Then his circumstances changed and he moved ashore and put the boat up for sale. It took a long time to sell---- years--- and while he continued to come down and give it preventative care it slowly began to deteriorate in terms of appearance.

Finally it sold to a family who moved it to our dock. They do not ignore the boat, but it sits more than it gets paid attention to. And to my admittedly unprofessional eye, there are lots and lots of new little "problems" that I can see cropping up; sections of blackening wood, opening seams and joints in the topsides and deck, failing paint and varnish and so on.

There was also a fiberglass Chris Craft cruiser on our dock for many, many years. Perhaps 36-38 feet. The family that owned it used it occasionally at first but then it just sat. Turning green with algae, the finish was long gone from the little bit of exterior teak, the fiberglass topsides and hulls were streaked with soot, and so on. Every now and then someone would buy it and clean it up. And it always cleaned up quite nicely with a fairly minimal effort.

I think most boaters think a well-designed wood boat is terrific as long as it's someone else's wood boat.

For someone with the time, skills, tools, and desire to maintain a wood boat--- or with the money to have it maintained properly--- great. Or, if like our former neighbor, can manage to keep the boat completely protected from all the elements.

But most boaters aren't like that. Hell, we've barely been able to keep abreast of the demands of our own fiberglass cruiser. And the thing that takes the most care and feeding on this going-on-43-year-old boat? The wood. Fortunately, with the exception of the deck and cabin top cores, none of the wood on or in this boat is structural.

So I think the era of wood boats has long since passed. Even back in the 1970s when I was a young guy in Hawaii and getting into ocean fishing there were still a lot of locals with wood sportfish boats, known over there as haole sampans (haole being the Hawaiian word for white, aka Caucasian). And to a man, they hated them. Not because they were bad boats but because they couldn't wait to be able to afford a fiberglass boat that they wouldn't have to screw with anymore. They could just go fishing.

It's great there are still some folks left who like them enough to give them the care and feeding they require and, for the nice ones, deserve. But I suspect the number of people like that is dwindling rapidly.
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Old 02-01-2016, 11:31 PM   #32
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BB , I still have my eye on that Alaskan 49 . It could be the death of me but so could William . We have been woodworking, painting and varnishing on our last two boats for about 15 years now . I guess that's what we like to do, plus it's entertaining for everyone else at the dock .
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Old 02-01-2016, 11:56 PM   #33
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BB could it be that this hair or broken fibers only shows up around where the strap is something as simple as condensation forming on the strap ?
Good thought. May be the corrosion of the copper is contributing some chemecial that AIDS in the process. I'm not a chemist but I'll bet there is one out there that reads this forum. Let's see what happens.
I have found a bit of hair in some other unlikely places but not on the level of the areas adjacent to the strap. Bob Lowe on the GB forum gave me a good explanation of the process and summed it up as a normal process that occurs in spots on wood boats in salt water. Summed up it is the result of the process do to damp wood salt water evaporating. The salt crystals formed as the the water evaporates cut the individual wood fibers creating "hair". The process to mitigate is to apply vinegar , scrub and then borax. Flush with warm water, dry it out and then epoxy. Go to the GB forum and you will find the complete explanation.
My only issue then is what do I do with the bonding strap. But, that depends if I do indeed maintain and upgrade the bonding system. This issue is still unresolved and are explained in full in the GB forum as well. Check it out.

Stay tuned for tomorrow's update. I'm continuing my quest into the engine room and forward to the bilges. We will prevail.

Bob
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Old 02-02-2016, 12:22 AM   #34
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BB , I still have my eye on that Alaskan 49 . It could be the death of me but so could William . We have been woodworking, painting and varnishing on our last two boats for about 15 years now . I guess that's what we like to do, plus it's entertaining for everyone else at the dock .
Great, I hope you do buy it. I'll sail mine over and park next to you and watch the show. I love free entertainment. You buying the adult beverages?

Seriously, go for it. I haven't had this much fun since I restored a classic mustang. It's all about the quest, is it not? My wife thinks I have been in the drug box but I keep telling her this is my "retired normal" get over it.
Who else would sell everything they own, move into a RV, drive to Florida, buy a wood Grand Banks that is 48 years old and be having the time of their lives?
Tell me who would do that. Obviously I'm on drugs. Oh by the way I just had four parts of my tongue cut out on January the 11th. It's got to be the drugs, right?

All I need now is another 20 or so years and I can die a fulfilled guy. Lived the life I chose and had a hell of a time. Remember, it's not the beginning or the end that is important. It's the journey. Simple, live like you will die tomorrow and then you don't have to worry about it.

I really will come a help. From what I saw on that's boat it may indeed be a group project. We will have a blast. Besides I will need a northern summer home and Memphis is just about right for me. Not to hot or cold and lots of great rivers to cruise.

Keep me posted. And thanks for your input. All of you guys are responsible for my irrational behavior. If I had not joined this forum 8 months ago I would not be where I am now, or tomorrow. Which will be in the engine room of a classic boat having a good time.

One last thought. Barring this boat sinking during the sea trial I will buy it. Rename it " Amazing Grace" and thank God for every day I have to work and play on her.

Bob
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Old 02-02-2016, 02:15 AM   #35
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Marin, you are as usual absolutely correct. But.....

When I was small my Mom told everyone I was her little Salmon. Later my Dad said the same and at some point I learned it was about me always going against the grain. And that pretty much sums it up. I know it and always have. All the kids played marbles, I chased girls. Later, they chased girls, I volunteered and went to Vietnam. I got shot and they went to Canada.

My life has always been that way and not regrets. I could buy a glass boat but not a boat of this size or with this character. It's a project and I am going to be living right in the middle of, sanding, buffing, painting and immersing myself in all the boat things that I can. I worked 50+ years in the fast lane driving the interstates and watching everybody pass me by to get somewhere they probably did not want to be doing something they didn't want to do and not enjoying the journey.
One of Robin Williams last movies was about a guy who wanted to kill himself. He was determined to kill himself and life kept getting in the way. His kids didn't care, his wife didn't care. He was a failure in life and he could not even kill himself. THIS WAS A COMEDY. And when he finally did accomplish his goal, the last shot on the screen was his tombstone with the camera slowly zeroing in on the dates. First the date he was born and then to the right and the date of his death. Then the camera snaps back to the dash. Robin's voice in the background........Its not about the beginning and it's certainly about the end.....its all about the DASH. About 6 months later he really did kill himself. Why is it important I am not sure but it says more to me than just the words. What are we doing and why do we do it? Who knows, but it really is all about the dash. About swimming against the current, not accepting the norm, about living the dash.
I chased the girls and went to Vietnam, got shot and worked 50+ years, always going against the current, no regrets. Living the dash.
When my dad was older he opened up to me about his ww2 experience on the Franklin. He had a appointment to West Point but enlisted in the Navy is he could get into the fray. He volunteered to be a bomb disposal officer and told me some stories that would turn your hair white. He survived without a scratch. About a third of his fellow shipmates did not. Turns out he was a Salmon too. The last two years of his life were spent with my wife and I as his primary care givers. They were a bittersweet time as altzhimers gradually stole him and disabled his ability to do absolutely anything at all but they were the most enlightening 2 years I have ever had.
In 2005 I had cancer, I still have cancer and about every year or two the doc's cut here and there and I am slowly being parted out to the incinerator. Another legacy from Vietnam. Turns out agent orange was not really the thing to be raining down on all those guys running the rivers and eating the dirt. When life deals you lemons, sometime you get orange. It's all about the dash.
I'm still head into the current and I'm not really interested in the boat that is the boat others can latch onto, do the loop in a year, sell the boat a rush off to another interest and on and on and on. I'm determined to live the dash and immerse myself in the boat life until the camera pans to the right.
And if I die in the engine room just leave me there and take the boat out to sea and sink her. I will be right where I want to be, still living the dash.


By the way, I want the PT. what a ride that must have been. Two big 12 cylinder crosleys, manual transmission, lots of guns and TORPEDOS. OMG. We just had sling shots on the delta compaired to that. I was born to late.

Thanks for your gracious wisdom and don't forget to live the dash, run hard against the current. It's always worth the effort. Oh and if you like to sand wood come see me. I just acquired a whole bunch.
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Old 02-02-2016, 10:44 AM   #36
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Dave wrote;
"Eric, not so hard as one might expect:
#8 Silicon Bronze Wood Screws Frearson Flat Head"

Right. I probably was thinking of Monel.
Yes! Monel fasteners are best. - if you can find them?? Expensive in 2016, I'm sure.
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Old 02-02-2016, 11:43 AM   #37
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Here ya go, twin Packard V12s running in a PT


pt boat engines - Bing video
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Old 02-02-2016, 12:22 PM   #38
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BinkleyPost,
You're post #35 is great stuff. On TF I often feel much like the salmon that you describe. The trick is knowing when NOT to be the salmon. Again great post!
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Old 02-02-2016, 12:54 PM   #39
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Marin, you are as usual absolutely correct. But.....

When I was small my Mom told everyone I was her little Salmon. Later my Dad said the same and at some point I learned it was about me always going against the grain. And that pretty much sums it up. I know it and always have. All the kids played marbles, I chased girls. Later, they chased girls, I volunteered and went to Vietnam. I got shot and they went to Canada.

My life has always been that way and not regrets. I could buy a glass boat but not a boat of this size or with this character. It's a project and I am going to be living right in the middle of, sanding, buffing, painting and immersing myself in all the boat things that I can. I worked 50+ years in the fast lane driving the interstates and watching everybody pass me by to get somewhere they probably did not want to be doing something they didn't want to do and not enjoying the journey.
One of Robin Williams last movies was about a guy who wanted to kill himself. He was determined to kill himself and life kept getting in the way. His kids didn't care, his wife didn't care. He was a failure in life and he could not even kill himself. THIS WAS A COMEDY. And when he finally did accomplish his goal, the last shot on the screen was his tombstone with the camera slowly zeroing in on the dates. First the date he was born and then to the right and the date of his death. Then the camera snaps back to the dash. Robin's voice in the background........Its not about the beginning and it's certainly about the end.....its all about the DASH. About 6 months later he really did kill himself. Why is it important I am not sure but it says more to me than just the words. What are we doing and why do we do it? Who knows, but it really is all about the dash. About swimming against the current, not accepting the norm, about living the dash.
I chased the girls and went to Vietnam, got shot and worked 50+ years, always going against the current, no regrets. Living the dash.
When my dad was older he opened up to me about his ww2 experience on the Franklin. He had a appointment to West Point but enlisted in the Navy is he could get into the fray. He volunteered to be a bomb disposal officer and told me some stories that would turn your hair white. He survived without a scratch. About a third of his fellow shipmates did not. Turns out he was a Salmon too. The last two years of his life were spent with my wife and I as his primary care givers. They were a bittersweet time as altzhimers gradually stole him and disabled his ability to do absolutely anything at all but they were the most enlightening 2 years I have ever had.
In 2005 I had cancer, I still have cancer and about every year or two the doc's cut here and there and I am slowly being parted out to the incinerator. Another legacy from Vietnam. Turns out agent orange was not really the thing to be raining down on all those guys running the rivers and eating the dirt. When life deals you lemons, sometime you get orange. It's all about the dash.
I'm still head into the current and I'm not really interested in the boat that is the boat others can latch onto, do the loop in a year, sell the boat a rush off to another interest and on and on and on. I'm determined to live the dash and immerse myself in the boat life until the camera pans to the right.
And if I die in the engine room just leave me there and take the boat out to sea and sink her. I will be right where I want to be, still living the dash.


By the way, I want the PT. what a ride that must have been. Two big 12 cylinder crosleys, manual transmission, lots of guns and TORPEDOS. OMG. We just had sling shots on the delta compaired to that. I was born to late.

Thanks for your gracious wisdom and don't forget to live the dash, run hard against the current. It's always worth the effort. Oh and if you like to sand wood come see me. I just acquired a whole bunch.
Excellent!! Simply the best post I've ever read on a boating forum. Yes... DASH! DDASH! DDDASH!!! And, enjoy every punctuation mark that ever happens or becomes encountered along The Dashing-Way!
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Old 02-02-2016, 01:37 PM   #40
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<snip>
I'm still head into the current and I'm not really interested in the boat that is the boat others can latch onto, do the loop in a year, sell the boat a rush off to another interest and on and on and on. I'm determined to live the dash and immerse myself in the boat life until the camera pans to the right.
And if I die in the engine room just leave me there and take the boat out to sea and sink her. I will be right where I want to be, still living the dash.
</snip>

Good on ya mate!
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Dave & Suzie - Roughwater 35
http://thepromiserwb1029.org/2012/09...the-promise-2/
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