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Old 02-01-2019, 02:25 PM   #1
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Rebuilding a '82 Carver 3607 questions

Hello all,
Her name is Starchaser and she's an '82 carver 3607 Aft cabin with 2 9.0L Internationals with ~ 3500hr on them. I'm the 6th owner, the last guy used her as a floating playpen & office and rarely left the dock. She's been a Florida boat for most of her life before I got her.

In 2015 I got a new job that required me to move to Maryland, so my son & I took her from Tampa bay, across the Okeechobee, up the ICW & broke down from bad fuel in S Carolina. I've been working to get her fixed & back in the water since. We found blisters & a bad patch job when we hauled her out last August.

My intention is to get her from Beaufort to Baltimore this summer and haul her out again to do a complete overhaul. New wiring, new plumbing, new SS fuel, water & waste tanks (I can weld TG), add propane, heat, new SS railings, Hard Bimini over the Aft deck, Radar arch, etc, etc, etc. TONS of work, but in the end, a solid Loop Cruiser for me & SWMBO's retirement.
All of which brings me to 3 questions:

# 1 There is an original 6.7Kw Westerbeke with ~300 (yes, three hundred) hours on it. It's enough to run the boat with everything currently aboard. However, it will NOT run unless I'm underway. It shuts down after ~10 minutes. The manual even states that I should get underway as soon as possible after starting it. NOT very useful. Any ideas as to why? How can I fix it so it'll run when on the hook?

# 2 Since there is no heat aboard (3 16k btu MarineAires for A/C but they are horrible for heat), & a 18Gal hot water heater. I want to toss the electric HW & add 2 Propane heaters, and 2 tankless Propane Hot water heaters. (1 for the Salon/Galley/forward cabin, 1 for the Aft cabin.) I think I can use a self venting duct for them. (Hot exhaust is in a metal pipe inside the Fresh air supply pipe. Similar to what a exhaust riser does on an inboard engine.) Has anyone used propane heaters and/or tankless hot water or am I in uncharted waters?

# 3 I'm also concerned about the Colregs re: Propane. If I'm reading them right, I need to have a single valved line to each appliance with only 1 appliance per tank. Is this right, or can I use a single propane tank (in a gas proof locker) to a supply valved manifold and then to a valve from the manifold to the appliance line and a valve at each appliance? Total # of appliances is 6 (2 Heaters, 2 Hot water, 3rd backup power for frig, and a Bar-B-Que grill). The 2nd way seems safer since I can isolate each appliance at both ends, but it also adds more points for potential gas leaks. I would also have CO & Propane detectors in the Locker, Bilge, and at the Appliances.

Setup: {Propane Locker - Tank valve> regulator> manifold> Appliance cut off valves>} Lines> Appliance valve> Appliance

Thanx

John
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Old 02-01-2019, 03:46 PM   #2
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# 1 There is an original 6.7Kw Westerbeke with ~300 (yes, three hundred) hours on it. It's enough to run the boat with everything currently aboard. However, it will NOT run unless I'm underway. It shuts down after ~10 minutes. The manual even states that I should get underway as soon as possible after starting it. NOT very useful. Any ideas as to why? How can I fix it so it'll run when on the hook?

# 2 Since there is no heat aboard (3 16k btu MarineAires for A/C but they are horrible for heat), & a 18Gal hot water heater.

There are a couple different types of thru-hull, one appropriate for generators and one not. Sorry, but I dunno which is which... but maybe it could be you just don't have the correct one. In any case, you're right, the generator should easily run at anchor or underway both. If you can find fault codes, that might help diagnose whether water flow is an underlying issue...

Surprised you're not satisfied with the MarineAirrrrrrr heating. Our two 16K BTU units keep our interior toasty enough, even in water temps down to low 40s. Last year we left Myrtle Beach for Charleston in 22įF outside temps, interior was fine. Perhaps the problem you're seeing isn't the reverse cycle concept, but rather something about your particular units? Hosed up reversing vales or some such? Or maybe that boat has just gotten it's money's worth in terms of AC units? (BTW, I've read -- and heard from other owners in our club -- that the newer Dometic Vector Turbo (or some such) replacements are the bee's knees... in both heat and AC modes.)

-Chris
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Old 02-01-2019, 03:56 PM   #3
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Sounds like a lot of fun. As to s/s tanks, certainly donít do it for the waste tank, it will corrode. Go with a heavy duty roto molded tank such as Ronko. Good tanks, no connection to the company just a satisfied customer. The propane will open a huge can of worms trying to retrofit it into the boat. If you go that way pay close attention to the ABYC recommendations. You insurance company will require you to have it done correctly. Lots of opinions here as to what is right. Good luck, keep us posted.
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Old 02-01-2019, 04:04 PM   #4
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If operating properly, the MarineAires should provide ample heating unless as ranger stated, there's some sort of problem with them...

And why so set on propane? You're carrying hundreds of gallons of diesel... diesel stoves and heaters are incredibly efficient and safe, and no need for additional tankage and special valves, etc...

Here's one option... https://www.scanmarineusa.com/wp-con...t-2018s2-1.pdf
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Old 02-02-2019, 07:17 AM   #5
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As to s/s tanks, certainly don’t do it for the waste tank, it will corrode. Go with a heavy duty roto molded tank such as Ronko. Good tanks, no connection to the company just a satisfied customer.

I forgot to comment on the SS for holding tanks, too. Agree ref rotomolded tanks, and it happens we just ordered new holding tanks from Ronco Plastics (as Peggie says, NOT the Vega-matic folks). They had a very large selection of tank shapes/sizes, put spin-welded fittings where we wanted them, very easy to deal with, reasonable costs.

While the corrosion problem likely wouldn't exist for freshwater tanks, I'd suggest rotomolded for that application is easier/better and likely less expensive too.


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And why so set on propane? You're carrying hundreds of gallons of diesel... diesel stoves and heaters are incredibly efficient and safe, and no need for additional tankage and special valves, etc...
Good points. Another is that diesel is available at marine fuel docks, whereas propane seems to mean a trip to "town" somewhere...


-Chris
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Old 02-02-2019, 08:49 AM   #6
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Our first big (ger) boat was an '84 Carver 3207. That was a great boat. Taught me a lot, relatively simple systems, comfortable. Had a lot of good times on that Carver. We'd maybe still have that boat if it weren't for the split aft berths. Good luck with your refit.
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Old 02-04-2019, 10:51 AM   #7
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Ranger42
Since these were installed by Carver and the manual says that I have to get underway as soon as possible, I think it's designed that way. Not a good setup. The through hole is 2" going into a 6"-8" fiberglass "Can" with the ball valve and hose coming out of the top of that. I suspect that the top of that "can" is at or very near the waterline. If that the case, then I think some retro fiberglass fitting maybe all that's needed to make it a anytime generator.

The MarineAires are probably fine. However on the trip up we lost the 1 (ONE!?!) water pump for them. I temporarily replaced it with another water pump but it pushed a lot more water. My solution was to put in a gate valve in and restrict the flow back down to the same GPH that way. While we were out of the water I flushed the lines with clean fresh water and got a lot of calcium debris out. I suspect that there are dead barnacles in the lines. I want to separate the units from each other and install individual water pumps for each. Losing all the A/C units because we lost a water pump was brutal Florida in August with only a single 3k window shaker was unpleasant. My son wanted to jump ship.

Comodave,

Good catch about the Holding tanks. Rotomolded is better, and the old ones are still sound although 37 years old. Best to replace them before they develop cracks like the water tanks did. The fuel and water will be stainless because it's actually cheaper than the rotomolded sizes.
The fuel tanks are the original 120 Gal galvanized, & I've noticed some flakes in the filters after I had bought her and replaced the green sludge that was in the tanks. None since then but... 37 years.
The water tanks have to be replaced. They have cracks in them that were "fixed" by fiberglassing over them. Didn't work for long.
I have a Mig/Tig machine, metal working equipment, time, and sheet steel is inexpensive as opposed to shipping plastic boxes. Stainless is going to last for the rest of my life, and probably my kids as well.
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Old 02-04-2019, 11:07 AM   #8
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Ranger42
Since these were installed by Carver and the manual says that I have to get underway as soon as possible, I think it's designed that way. Not a good setup. The through hole is 2" going into a 6"-8" fiberglass "Can" with the ball valve and hose coming out of the top of that. I suspect that the top of that "can" is at or very near the waterline. If that the case, then I think some retro fiberglass fitting maybe all that's needed to make it a anytime generator.

The MarineAires are probably fine. However on the trip up we lost the 1 (ONE!?!) water pump for them. I temporarily replaced it with another water pump but it pushed a lot more water. My solution was to put in a gate valve in and restrict the flow back down to the same GPH that way. While we were out of the water I flushed the lines with clean fresh water and got a lot of calcium debris out. I suspect that there are dead barnacles in the lines. I want to separate the units from each other and install individual water pumps for each. Losing all the A/C units because we lost a water pump was brutal Florida in August with only a single 3k window shaker was unpleasant. My son wanted to jump ship.

A thru-hull to a genset would commonly have a valve and then a sea strainer... and output from the strainer would go to the genset raw water pump. Assuming you've got the thru-hull and the valve... maybe just rempace that "can" thing with a decent strainer and see if that's all it needed?

And/or... maybe your genset raw water pump isn't actually working all that well? So maybe forced water flow underway somehow makes the whole thing work, whereas maybe the pump by itself can't (isn't?) move enough water when you're not under way? In that case, could be an easy impeller fix... or a slightly less easy raw water pump replacement.

Its quite common to feed 2-3 AC units with a single raw water pump suitable for the purpose. Introducing two more pumps would give you now three points of pump failure...

FWIW, Rydlyme and Barnacle Buster are both products made specifically for flushing AC and genset raw water lines like that.

-Chris
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Old 02-05-2019, 07:32 AM   #9
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The MarineAires are probably fine. However on the trip up we lost the 1 (ONE!?!) water pump for them. I temporarily replaced it with another water pump but it pushed a lot more water.


Thought of another point... How old is the pump you replaced? Original? If so, about 36 years old?

They seem to usually work for a long time... and you could often get a new one over-nighted...

-Chris
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Old 02-05-2019, 10:39 AM   #10
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Chris,
I had asked how much a set of replacement parts would be and Calpeda sent me a new one in exchange for the old one. It had served for 34 years before it failed from a worn impeller. The new one failed because we took on water after we snagged an unmarked crab pot. THAT little escapade cost us a week in drydock resetting a strut.

This is one of the many reasons for doing not just a refit but a real overhaul. It's never been done, after the original owner sold her the owners seemed to take less care than the last owner until I got her. I looked at a lot of boats before I found this one. Great layout, 2 cabins, 2 heads, galley with 3 burners & oven, Frig/freezer, dropdown table that seats 4 adults comfortably, salon, 9x12 aft deck, upper & lower helms, twin diesels, etc. The original owner knew what he was about & Carver knows how to make the of the space that is available. Unfortunately, owner 2-5 were more likely to "make it work" rather than correct the cause of the problem. i.e. I remove a shoe box of wire nuts from the wiring harnesses. True I spliced the wires but they are soldered and shrink tubed.

John
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Old 02-05-2019, 12:42 PM   #11
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For a long time I thought the color coding on wiring and wiring diagrams was just a product of overly fussy designers and service people with OCD run amok. Then I worked for a former small aircraft/commuter pilot who explained it to me. He was right, when I have a 19 foot Bayliner and I can see the entire wiring run with my bare eyeballs from the inboard/outboard housing to the dash, who cares about a light green wire with a black stripes -- but someday kid, when your boat gets big enough you'll need that color coding so PRESERVE AND DEFEND THE WIRING DIAGRAM COLORS!! Had an oil pressure sensor in the starboard engine that was bad. The wire ran from the engine to the hull, up the salon wall, through the stairway cabinet, up the flybridge cowling, forward to the helm, under the flybridge floor, into the helm console to Screw #3 on the contact bar for the starboard gauges. It must have been troublesome for a while because there were four pieces and four different colors in the wiring run, and the last color to the gauge was not correct. I don't blame it on the previous owner either, he was a robotics engineer, it must have been a previous service guy. I replaced it with a single wire for the whole run. Tan from beginning to end, thank you very much. Or was it light blue? Maybe port was light blue. Either way, now I get it. Do not mess up the wiring colors.
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Old 02-05-2019, 01:46 PM   #12
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kthoennes,

LOL, As a master electrician, and electronics technician, I hear you! I have the original owners manual from Carver (and the original owners logs!) that have been priceless. If the other owners had only bothered to READ it. All of the "repairs" were done with whatever wires seem to have been at hand. I'll be returning to the original schematics where applicable, and any new work will follow the manufacturers schematics as well. EVERYTHING will be documented in a new manual that will be kept aboard.

John.
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Old 02-05-2019, 06:41 PM   #13
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So what is your critical path?
Fix critical broken stuff
Fix other broken stuff
Fix pita stuff
Make improvements
...In that order or you will never leave the dock. Just my opinion...
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Old 02-06-2019, 07:27 AM   #14
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Chris,
I had asked how much a set of replacement parts would be and Calpeda sent me a new one in exchange for the old one. It had served for 34 years before it failed from a worn impeller. The new one failed because we took on water after we snagged an unmarked crab pot. THAT little escapade cost us a week in drydock resetting a strut.

You mean the new replacement was simply ruined from flooding? So the lack of AC during that week wasn't actually because of a failed AC pump but because you were out of the water?

Anyway, my point was that a) it's common to feed multiple units with one pump, b) because the pumps are relatively efficient and offer a long-ish service life... so c) replacing one pump with three seems like overkill$$$, with no signficant benefit... and d) leaving the system as is (one pump) means you could get on faster with all the other stuff you want to do.

Your boat, though.

-Chris
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