Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-12-2015, 10:36 PM   #21
Guru
 
Capt.Bill11's Avatar
 
City: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 5,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
That is either great or a mistake or you just dont see it and there's no manual to tell you?

...either way it is rare that a heat exchanger doesn't have one..and a over or two....but I am game that some engines may have either some electrical device to rep,ace zincs or just manufactured without any I mind.
MTUs come to mind as engines that do not have zincs.
__________________
Advertisement

Capt.Bill11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 10:41 PM   #22
Guru
 
Capt.Bill11's Avatar
 
City: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 5,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyschulman View Post
I believe you are putting too much faith in the zincs, but better than nothing in salt water. Second the salts in sea water tend to crystalize in the cooling system and when bad enough clog things up ergo hot running or even cooked motor.
So you're saying the salt does not return to solution as hot water passes over it the next time the engine is run?
__________________

Capt.Bill11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 10:58 PM   #23
Veteran Member
 
Tolly Roger's Avatar
 
City: Tsawwassen/Point Roberts
Country: Canada/USA
Vessel Name: Tolly Roger
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34 SC
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 64
I've been using GROCO flush ports for a few years. I connect a hose to a 5 gal bucket and run fresh water through. To winterize I add RV antifreeze to the bucket and run that through which is the main reason I added them.

Name:  Groco.jpg
Views: 252
Size:  11.3 KB
__________________
Tolly Roger
1983 Tollycraft 34SC
www.tollyroger.com
Tolly Roger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 12:41 AM   #24
Senior Member
 
porman's Avatar
 
City: Duvall, Wa
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Beach Music II
Vessel Model: 2003 Mainship 430 Trawler
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 250
I flush my engines with fresh water every time I come back from salt water. That's how long it takes to get to my marina in Lake Washington from the Ballard locks. Our previous boat was a 2005 Camano Troll, bought new, always kept in the lake except for trips and vacations in Puget Sound. After 1700 hours I removed the exhaust elbow and had it inspected. They said it looked like new. By the way, it had a Volvo TAMD41 which did not have engine zincs.
porman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 07:54 AM   #25
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,861
Because so many here put so much faith in the USCG, anyone know if they flush?

None of the marine businesses I have worked for ever even discussed it. A few new boats I delivered had the expensive salt away systems on them....but not just plain water rinse options.

My cut is that when the cooling system drains, unless you get 100% of the salt out, oxidation exposure to air is causing corrosion problems. Sitting in salt water is not as bad as having one salt crystal remain and allow air to it.

My guess is the industry generalized that flushing while maybe good, is so incrementally ineffective to just not do it. Like changing oil at 25 hours...not a bad thing...except you aren't really doing anything unless there is something bad going on anyway.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 08:19 AM   #26
TF Site Team
 
dimer2's Avatar
 
City: Houston
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Baobab
Vessel Model: Bayliner 4788
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,192
All newer outboards (larger sizes) come with a fresh water connection, because the manufacturers feel the components used benefit from a fresh water flush. If such was the case for diesel inboards, why is there no built in connection? This would be a cheap addition in comparison to say an oil changer, which most newer boats come with. Even though Tony Athens recommends flushing, I don't see the option on his engines (correct me if I missed it).
__________________
No one who achieves success does so without acknowledging the help of others.
dimer2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 08:24 AM   #27
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,861
Quote:
Originally Posted by dimer2 View Post
All newer outboards (larger sizes) come with a fresh water connection, because the manufacturers feel the components used benefit from a fresh water flush. If such was the case for diesel inboards, why is there no built in connection? This would be a cheap addition in comparison to say an oil changer, which most newer boats come with. Even though Tony Athens recommends flushing, I don't see the option on his engines (correct me if I missed it).
Totally agree....for whatever reason.....outboards are the only engines I have seen actual salt crystal buildup to the point of obstructing water flow. My old Mariner 200 had that issue at the thermostats.

Even the saltwater cooled engines I have replaced component to on had more corrosion than salt buildup.

There are components that do have issues though and if you own an engine with them...by all means flush.

All I am saying like a lot of recreational boat maintenance....some of it is based on feel good more than actual fact....even though we all know salt water is corrosive to a degree.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 09:33 AM   #28
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: East Greenwich, RI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bella
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,875
Outboards build up calcium/magnesium deposits, not salt because they are sea water cooled and sometimes operate above 165 deg F. At that temperature Ca/Mg precipitates out forming what you think is salt crystals.

Provision of a fresh water flush on a diesel engine is the responsibility of the boat builder, not the engine manufacturer because the components necessary to do it are outside of the engine itself.

So why do builders install oil changers and not flushing attachments? Simple, every DIY boat owner experiences the mess of oil changing and the oil changers make it simpler and cleaner. The benefits of fresh water flushing are more subtle and won't be seen immediately. No instant gratification.

Two years ago I added a fresh water flush to my engine. I used to replace 1-2 engine zincs at 6-12 mo intervals and the other 2 at 24 mo intervals. Since I added the fresh water flush I haven't had to replace any. So fresh water does work to limit zinc wastage.

And if it will reduced zinc wastage by a factor of 3, then it will do the same for all engine metals exposed to seawater whether critical like an aluminum after cooler or not.

A transmission or oil cooler on your Lehman or Perkins (which doesn't have zincs) typically needs to be replaced every 10 years or so particularly if they don't have cupronickel tubes. The mani/multi cooler on Perkins fails at longer intervals, maybe 20-30 years, due to corrosion and costs thousands to replace. Both of these failures would be mostly eliminated with a fresh water flush.

It took me $20 in parts and an hour of labor to install my flush valve. It takes me 5 minutes to flush each time I go out. I will potentially save thousands by doing it. Makes sense to me.

David
djmarchand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 09:52 AM   #29
Guru
 
City: gulf coast
Country: pinellas
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,197
I always wondered about flushing since the typical garden hone cant supply anything near the amount of water the seawater pump does. I sounds like something that cant hurt but my engines seem to mostly drain down and there is little water remaining in the heat exchangers or after coolers and none in the properly designed exhaust system.


My ZF oil coolers have no zincs and neither does the Koehler generator. It also drains down. Strange but that's the way it is.
OTOH my 4 stroke OB had a flush inlet factory installed.
bayview is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 10:03 AM   #30
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,994
Greetings,
Hasn't the point been mentioned, somewhere, that zinc is not a good sacrificial anode in fresh water and in fact is rendered inert by being in contact with fresh water for a period of time? So bathing your zinc in fresh water may be somewhat couterproductive in the long run yes/no? Yup, the zincs may last 3X as long but are they really doing their job if not wasting?
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 10:08 AM   #31
Guru
 
City: Fort Myers
Country: USA
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 954
I've flushed out outboards in my early years, remember pulling exhaust plate (V6) and it was encrusted in crystallized salt like I never flushed it, I guess it could have been worse.

I have a easy setup for winterizing my diesels, I just don't do it in season as I find those that do have a tendency to stay at the dock more, I rather just fire it up and take a short ride if I want to without thinking, oh I have to flush out again when I get back. They are 16 years old and do my standard maintenance routine and all is fine.

It certainly not a bad thing, but if you use the boat a lot I think it gets subjective.
Marlinmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 11:28 AM   #32
Senior Member
 
SteveH's Avatar
 
City: Western WA
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 110
Quote:
RT Firefly Greetings,
Hasn't the point been mentioned, somewhere, that zinc is not a good sacrificial anode in fresh water and in fact is rendered inert by being in contact with fresh water for a period of time? So bathing your zinc in fresh water may be somewhat couterproductive in the long run yes/no? Yup, the zincs may last 3X as long but are they really doing their job if not wasting?
Exactly my question.

SteveH
SteveH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 02:05 PM   #33
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: East Greenwich, RI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bella
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,875
I believe that zincs waste slower in fresh water because fresh water is much less conductive than salt water.

David
djmarchand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 02:11 PM   #34
Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Bill11 View Post
So you're saying the salt does not return to solution as hot water passes over it the next time the engine is run?
If you want to gamble your motor on that premises Ok with me. The salts may not be what you think. There are strong acid products made to flush out cooling systems and that does not always work. To do a really good job it is often necessary to disassemble and clean a costly process.
eyschulman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 02:15 PM   #35
Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,291
Quote:
Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
I believe that zincs waste slower in fresh water because fresh water is much less conductive than salt water.

David

No it is because zincs in fresh water get a white coating on them that inhibits further sacrifice of their ions. The answer is to use Aluminum anodes which also work well in salt water and great for boats which switch hit.
eyschulman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 02:18 PM   #36
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,861
Disassembly to really do a good job.......

Thus my analysis..if all the salt doesn't go bye bye...what are you really accomplishing with flushing? Saving zincs?

Still haven't seen anything published that convinces me flushing saves engines or most engine components (except maybe a few) one bit.

Can't hurt...but is it a "PROVEN" improvement by anyone?

Something like "we run run a fleet of boats and after so many years after starting flushing, we noticed oil coolers last 30 to to percent longer as we have been using the same ones for decades and the design hasn't changed".
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 04:52 PM   #37
Guru
 
kchace's Avatar
 
City: Brookline, NH
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Blue Heaven
Vessel Model: Albin 43 classic double cabin, twin 135 Lehmans
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 757
For most of our boats the only components that touch salt water are the RW pump, the heat exchangers and exhaust elbow. In my mind, the RW pump and heat exchangers are typically made of very durable (in salt water) materials. Most heat exchanger issues are related to scale build up which a fresh water rinse won't touch. Cast iron elbows start corroding the minute you take them out of the box. For those of us lucky enough to have Lehmans with SS exhaust elbows, its one less thing to worry about. (I checked mine last month and even though over 10 years old they look like new inside)

So in my mind a fresh water rinse even if it does work well would have only minimal benefits UNLESS one has a raw water cooled engine - then I think flushing is a good idea.

Ken
kchace is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 05:03 PM   #38
Guru
 
angus99's Avatar
 
City: Signal Mtn., TN
Country: US
Vessel Name: Stella Maris
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,382
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Thus my analysis..if all the salt doesn't go bye bye...what are you really accomplishing with flushing? Saving zincs?
Help me understand what you're saying, Scott. Why would all the salt need to go away for flushing to be effective? If typical seawater is 3.5% saline, does it not seem that it would be advantageous to dilute that to .0035% or whatever after a thorough freshwater flush? Which concentration is potentially more damaging to metal?
angus99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 05:57 PM   #39
Guru
 
Capt.Bill11's Avatar
 
City: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 5,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyschulman View Post
If you want to gamble your motor on that premises Ok with me. The salts may not be what you think. There are strong acid products made to flush out cooling systems and that does not always work. To do a really good job it is often necessary to disassemble and clean a costly process.
I see your point. Not sure if it's correct or not. And I'm not 100% opposed to the idea of fresh water flushing a diesel engine. Just not sure if it's all that nesscessary if you are running your engine/s on a regular basis.

I don't gamble with my engines. I give them proper and timely maintiance, thank you.

And it's rarely nesscessary to do a complete tear down to flush the raw water section of an engine. In fact I just got through flushing both my 32kw gensets, the hydraulic tank cooler, 3 - 5 ton chillers (all at once) and the NAIAD cooler by only removing the inlet and outlet hoses on the units and hooking up flush hoses.
Capt.Bill11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 07:32 PM   #40
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,861
Quote:
Originally Posted by angus99 View Post
Help me understand what you're saying, Scott. Why would all the salt need to go away for flushing to be effective? If typical seawater is 3.5% saline, does it not seem that it would be advantageous to dilute that to .0035% or whatever after a thorough freshwater flush? Which concentration is potentially more damaging to metal?
When the water evaporates....it is 100% salt sitting on the surface...and has been pointed out, for most of the system it really doesn't matter that much due to the materials used...but if it does, 100% salt crystal, a little moisture and air is as bad as it gets.

I'm pretty much done until someone shows definitively how it helps and I really am open to new info, but thinking something helps or feeling good about some procedure just doesn't ring my bell....
__________________

psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012