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Old 03-24-2016, 11:01 PM   #81
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That still leaves me with some doubt about a need for mounting the PS in near proximity to the toilet, in this kind of installation. Seems superfluous, given that toilet discharge is going to the holding tank first anyway. Not an argument, just a puzzle.

Chris you still seem to consider the PS to be an add-on the holding tank, when it's actually an add-on to the toilet that's supposed to free you from the need to use the tank! Why would you send EVERY flush to the tank first when the only times you'll have to do that are when you visit Herring Bay? That might make sense if your only cruises are from your slip in the South River to a guest slip in Herrington Harbor South for the weekend, but it would certainly be a waste of a $1500 device.
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Old 03-25-2016, 09:04 AM   #82
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That still leaves me with some doubt about a need for mounting the PS in near proximity to the toilet, in this kind of installation. Seems superfluous, given that toilet discharge is going to the holding tank first anyway. Not an argument, just a puzzle.

Chris you still seem to consider the PS to be an add-on the holding tank, when it's actually an add-on to the toilet that's supposed to free you from the need to use the tank! Why would you send EVERY flush to the tank first when the only times you'll have to do that are when you visit Herring Bay? That might make sense if your only cruises are from your slip in the South River to a guest slip in Herrington Harbor South for the weekend, but it would certainly be a waste of a $1500 device.


Well, we assume we'll end up passing through other NDZs eventually, too. Most of our boating is here on the Chesapeake, but we do like to go other places, too. And of course we have a boat with a head on it so we can use it everywhere (no 3 am trips to shore, no matter where we are).

Now that I'm seeing what overall costs might be, I suspect you're right: too much $$$ and not enough time to amortize that.

In answer to that question, though: because that's the way Raritan describes the HnT path. I have their document L435v0813 -- Hold 'n' Treat Holding Tank component system -- with a nifty illustration that shows flow from toilet to holding tank to PS or ES to overboard. Another Raritan doc, L519v0815 -- PURASAN EX Hold n' Treat (Operations, Maintenance, and Installation Instructions) -- that Greg sent me last September has a different diagram that illustrates the same flow path.

(Can't find these on their public site o include link,s and don't have a way to upload a pic here... but that's pretty much the way Mac and Greg described it to me.)

The latter doc also has a pic of the "Tablet Dispenser, hence my previous use of the word "tablets." As I look at it now, I'm reminded that I knew (last September) about needing a pressurized water source. I've heard memory is a wonderful thing; sometimes wish I had one.

-Chris
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Old 03-25-2016, 10:11 AM   #83
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[/I]Why would you send EVERY flush to the tank first when the only times you'll have to do that are when you visit [an NDZ]?
I remember discussing the option of either flushing direct to Type I or Type III. On my power cat I set the system up to go to the Type III first (tank). When convenient I turn the Hold n' Treat system on and empty the tank. I certainly see the advantages by-passing the tank but here are reasons to flush to the tank first:

1 - When in an NDZ (of course).
2 - The Marine Elegance heads I have only use about a quart of water (I think) when flushed in "water saver" mode. Why run a Type I treatment cycle for that little bit of waste?
3 - When anchored I, or others, may want to swim. Even with treated waste I wouldn't want to discharge at such a time.

I'm also thinking that using HNT cycles only will prolong the life of a Type I device as it is running the optimum amount of waste per cycle (my second point above). It is more wear and tear on the transfer pump, but those are much cheaper to repair and easy to swap out.
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Old 03-25-2016, 10:21 AM   #84
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I set it up pretty simply - having two heads.

One head has LectraSan only and one has holding tank only, with no way to dump overboard - must be pumped at shore or by mobile pump boat. When in NDZ I place combo/key lock onto chain that fits tightly over LectraSan head's seat cover; and, I turn off power to that head. Inspectors appreciate that arrangement!
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Old 03-25-2016, 12:59 PM   #85
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Well, we assume we'll end up passing through other NDZs eventually, too. Most of our boating is here on the Chesapeake, but we do like to go other places, too. And of course we have a boat with a head on it so we can use it everywhere (no 3 am trips to shore, no matter where we are).

Now that I'm seeing what overall costs might be, I suspect you're right: too much $$$ and not enough time to amortize that.

In answer to that question, though: because that's the way Raritan describes the HnT path. I have their document L435v0813 -- Hold 'n' Treat Holding Tank component system -- with a nifty illustration that shows flow from toilet to holding tank to PS or ES to overboard. Another Raritan doc, L519v0815 -- PURASAN EX Hold n' Treat (Operations, Maintenance, and Installation Instructions) -- that Greg sent me last September has a different diagram that illustrates the same flow path.

(Can't find these on their public site o include link,s and don't have a way to upload a pic here... but that's pretty much the way Mac and Greg described it to me.)

The latter doc also has a pic of the "Tablet Dispenser, hence my previous use of the word "tablets." As I look at it now, I'm reminded that I knew (last September) about needing a pressurized water source. I've heard memory is a wonderful thing; sometimes wish I had one.

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I remember discussing the option of either flushing direct to Type I or Type III. On my power cat I set the system up to go to the Type III first (tank). When convenient I turn the Hold n' Treat system on and empty the tank. I certainly see the advantages by-passing the tank but here are reasons to flush to the tank first:

1 - When in an NDZ (of course).
2 - The Marine Elegance heads I have only use about a quart of water (I think) when flushed in "water saver" mode. Why run a Type I treatment cycle for that little bit of waste?
3 - When anchored I, or others, may want to swim. Even with treated waste I wouldn't want to discharge at such a time.

I'm also thinking that using HNT cycles only will prolong the life of a Type I device as it is running the optimum amount of waste per cycle (my second point above). It is more wear and tear on the transfer pump, but those are much cheaper to repair and easy to swap out.
I agree with both of you! The Hold N Treat is a great product that solves the issue of what to do when you are in a place that you either cannot, or just do not want to discharge.

Raritan clearly had the intention in mind of using the holding tank as the source for their MSD's. That's the only reason for the hold n treat control to exist.

Peggy while being probably the worlds expert in marine sanitation clearly has a bias against Raritan's Hold N Treat. Nothing wrong with that... She is a human being after all.

Art, while your method of locking out one of the heads on your boat might work for you, the very concept goes against the first basic design criteria that I used when designing my sanitatation system. That is that both heads needed to be available for use 100% of the time.
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Old 03-25-2016, 01:19 PM   #86
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Yeah, and there are NDZs along the lower east coast, and then also in New Hampshire, all of which are target areas for our travels. I haven't looked closely enough at those yet to see whether they might be avoidable, and if so, how easily...

But in any case, my "concept" is similar: 100% available 100% of the time.

OTOH, the difference in cost between an up-front HnT installation and on-going individual pump-outs forever -- usually about $20/each and under and hour or so of my time -- is what I'm looking at now. Latter might be easier, now that our tank-level gauge is working again.

Some of my investigation started when we discovered our nominal 40-gallon waste tank really only gives us about 24 usable gallons. Partly because the tank wasn't large enough to hold 40 gallons in the first place (so the label is simply wrong) and also because the input port is on the side, about 2-3" below the top. And then we were usually/probably/maybe pumping more often than necessary (except for a couple boo-boos) because the sensor was stuck.


Edit: Quick check, I see we spent $290 in pump-outs last year up 'til mid-October... and there would have been two or three more in later October/November. And there's the time factor...

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Old 03-25-2016, 01:19 PM   #87
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Art, while your method of locking out one of the heads on your boat might work for you, the very concept goes against the first basic design criteria that I used when designing my sanitatation system. That is that both heads needed to be available for use 100% of the time.
I see your point... However... with only two of us aboard 95% of time.; no problem. Also, we both know where the key is (or combo if desired to use it) as well as where the "hidden" power switch is. Just in case the holding tank head is occupied and an emergency for another comes to light.... LOL

My goals are to keep our waters as clean as can be "reasonably" accomplished while making sure that our boat's sanitation system layout always passes muster with officials!

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Old 03-25-2016, 02:39 PM   #88
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Peggy while being probably the worlds expert in marine sanitation clearly has a bias against Raritan's Hold N Treat.

No, I do not...and nothing I've said even implies that I do! Just the opposite, in fact...I think it's it the niftiest idea since laws requiring boats to hold or treat were enacted.

However, I definitely DO have a very STRONG bias against storing waste aboard and the hassle and expense required to maintain a holding tank if you don't have to use one. To choose turning your boat into a honey wagon over treat & and discharge directly from the toilet defeats the whole purpose of having a treatment device, no matter how you empty the tank. The Hold 'n' Treat system only makes it easier to do so when you have no choice but to use the tank.

And btw, Chris...

...because that's the way Raritan describes the HnT path. I have their document L435v0813 -- Hold 'n' Treat Holding Tank component system -- with a nifty illustration that shows flow from toilet to holding tank to PS or ES to overboard.

So if a promo piece for a kitchen skillet shows it full of chicken parts, that means that makes it a promo for a skillet that only cooks chicken?

That illustration only shows how the Hold 'n' Treat system works...it only shows how it works to empty a tank. It doesn't address the normal PS or ES installation, it's not to scale, nor does it imply that emptying the tank is the only use or even the primary use for the treatment device. But you've decided that because the promo sheet for Hold 'n' Treat system only show it doing what the H 'n' T system does, that's the only use for the treatment device, which simply isn't true.

Y'all can continue beating this to death if you want to, but I really am done unless someone else tries to put works in my mouth that I've never said or even implied.
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Old 03-25-2016, 03:01 PM   #89
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Peg, the challenge we are seeing in the field is that there are situations where it is either illegal or a violation of our marina contract to discharge treated waste.
There are also situations where even though it might be allowed, you just do not want to discharge treated waste.

In my area there are no NDZ's. But...

My moorage agreement clearly says that even treated waste is not to be discharged into the marina.

My water maker intake is 8 feet from my waste through hull. I am not interested in discharging waste while I am desalinizing water.

Others have indicated swimming activities. I would not want my family swimming and haveing discharge take place at the same time.

Because of those issues and more, I see real value in the HNT concept, not just for "have to" situations, but more for the "want to" situations.

With a 5 year operational history of using my HNT system, as shipped from the Raritan factory, I have had ZERO maintenance issues regarding the holding tank, and am 100% happy with the freedom of choice that the system provides, again as designed by the factory.
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Old 03-25-2016, 03:23 PM   #90
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...because that's the way Raritan describes the HnT path. I have their document L435v0813 -- Hold 'n' Treat Holding Tank component system -- with a nifty illustration that shows flow from toilet to holding tank to PS or ES to overboard.

So if a promo piece for a kitchen skillet shows it full of chicken parts, that means that makes it a promo for a skillet that only cooks chicken?

That illustration only shows how the Hold 'n' Treat system works...it only shows how it works to empty a tank. It doesn't address the normal PS or ES installation, it's not to scale, nor does it imply that emptying the tank is the only use or even the primary use for the treatment device. But you've decided that because the promo sheet for Hold 'n' Treat system only show it doing what the H 'n' T system does, that's the only use for the treatment device, which simply isn't true.

Well, geez, Peggie, I'm on the short end of the stick here. The Raritan guys didn't call those "promo sheets" and they specifically said the second was the "technical document." I haven't "decided" how the HnT works; I've simply described how Raritan told me it works. How the hell am I supposed to know any different?

I ask the company who makes it how it works. They tell me. With supporting document, parts lists, diagrams, installation instructions, etc. I say "No, that can't be right."

???

It happens that their HnT description matches the way I would want to cook chicken with it... but I certainly acknowledge there may be other ways to use the PS/ES systems that don't happen appeal as much to me.

For example, I won't put in a system we can't use everywhere. That's not a criticism of the system, just a fact o' our life. We could use the HnT system; we would not be satisfied with a stand-alone PS or ES because we would not be able to use THE TOILET all the time, any time, whenever the urge moves us. (So to speak. I think that voluntarily puts in the category of having no choice nut to use the holding tank.)

I wasn't arguing that my chicken would be better than anyone else's. I've only tried to better understand what it would take to install it in our particular boat, so we could use it in a way that would meet our needs.

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Old 03-25-2016, 03:51 PM   #91
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I'm not going to completely close my mind to the idea of being able send to tank or send to Type I, but I've got to think through the installation. Y-valves from two head that either go to Type I or III are pretty easy. But I'm going to have to research:

-What triggers the Type I cycle in both heads on a 2-head boat in this setup? I know with my current boat there's a yellow Raritan push control. Would one of these need to be in each head? It can't trigger off the flush control as it would then trigger when the heads are sent to the Type III.

-If in an NDZ for a while the only way to legally empty the Type I would be via pump out or be outside of the limit. I've had cases where I've been in an NDZ for a few days but there wasn't a convenient pump out so I held the waste until I got out of the DNZ and then turned on the HNT system while we were running. I really like having this ability.

At least I've got some options to think about.
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Old 03-25-2016, 03:51 PM   #92
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I agree with Kevin in the fact that while NDZs aren't everywhere...I see more and more "clean marinas" that have no discharge in the marina. So if you use marinas often enough...it is a pretty big decision whether to or not "treat and hold"


While I like to think Raritan engineers have their "shi*" together...so far with my issues....not really. The Electroscan needs salt added even when within a mile of the ocean and gangbuster tidal flow....in what most would call "salt water"....why engineer a system that is close or realistically below tolerances? Then there is the auto feed salt tank fiasco...which they acknowledge. The salt tank overflow issue is real...but fortunately easily fixed like Kevin and I did with electrical parts versus the mickey mouse float system that doesn't seem to work except in the lab...again their words and reality. The electrical fix parts can be had for around $50. Their grand engineering fix was a tiny rubber seal...the old one from what looked like black rubber, the new some kind of opaque composite...it lasted a month where the lack one almost a year...not good. Then there is adding the salt tank to the main unit. You are expected to drill and glue the new barbed fitting. For a $1000+ system...that seems to need one of these add on units ...I would think a port molded in for this "add on" should be part of the case lid....again especially with the going prices.


Nope....for relatively simple things....these relatively expensive units that are becoming less useable compared to more usable is not a great thought.
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Old 03-25-2016, 04:54 PM   #93
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Great points. Outside of the specter of seeing all of the Puget Sound becoming a NDZ, a Purasan would be nice. I would not use it in my current harbor and I wouldn't use it in many marinas and in some anchorages. Because of this, I would be using the holding tank a lot. However, as soon as I left the harbor, the hnt would be turned on and treat and dispose of any waste in the tank with the purasan. I like that idea a lot. It would be great when heading North where pump-outs may be harder to find.

But, other fish to fry and there are other more pressing things to do with my boat bucks.
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Old 03-25-2016, 05:13 PM   #94
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Not sure that plumbing the head to either the holding tank or PuriSan then the holding tank to the PuriSan is anything more than a y valve downstream of the head.

That way you can go directly overboard through the PuriSan thence overboard or to the holding tank for Hold and Treat.

If the y valve is handy...may not be a big deal...but I could see that different cruising styles might require a lot of valve changes.

I guess it would only work if the PuriSan can take orders separately from a head or Hold and Treat.
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Old 03-30-2016, 07:21 PM   #95
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FWIW - I just had a brand new Purasan EX delivered (PST12EXHNT to be exact). Much the same parts as the original, except for some added items to the chemical canister along with one of those generic electrical wall boxes (about 10x10") that is rather heavy (I'll open that up soon) with a pump attached to it. It was the older units that had a "tablet cartridge" (I converted my older system years ago and forgot about it). The same tablets that were in that original-style cartridge now ship in a much better sealed quart-sized plastic "paint can".
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Old 06-26-2016, 09:28 AM   #96
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Purasan ex blinking light

Hello. I'm new to the sight. Why is the warning light blinking fast on the purasan ex system?
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Old 06-26-2016, 09:37 AM   #97
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From the owner's manual: " Fast flashing Error LED indicates that Tablet
Dispenser is overfilled with water or more than two tablets are loaded during refill (2
flashes every second)."
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Old 06-26-2016, 10:10 AM   #98
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If you don't have an owners manual, you can download and print one from here:
Raritan PuraSan EX owners manual It would be a good idea to read through it to learn how it works, how to maintain it properly, and what the blinking lights mean.
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Old 06-27-2016, 07:26 AM   #99
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Purasan ex blinking light

If tablet dispenser is over filled, isn't that automatic? How do I control the amount of water. Will this be a continuous problem?
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Old 06-27-2016, 08:07 AM   #100
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The answers to your questions are in the owners manual. Check out the link in Peggy's comments above.
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