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Old 03-22-2016, 12:08 PM   #41
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Kevin; good description and I don't want to take away from mixman's OP but to someone like me, still trying to figure this whole waste issue, 80 lbs. of salt in 60 nights sounds like a lot. How often do you ad and how many pump outs (not dumps O/B) in those 60 nights?
OK, I never pump out. I do not even know where the pump out is at my marina.

The salt for me is a piece of cake. When I installed the salt feed unit, think 5 gallon bucket in size, and shape, perhaps a bit thinner though. I put it in my boats utility room, which is easy to get to. The salt feed holds about 1/2 of a 40 pound bag of salt. I have a large mug that I use to scoop the salt from the bag to the salt tank. Figure I do this 4 times a season.

I'm not favoring the electroscan over the purasan EX here. For my situation being in Alaska with no UPS ground shipping available its easier to go get a bag of salt than try to order replacement purasan chemicals.
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Old 03-22-2016, 01:52 PM   #42
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Chris, I'm in 100% agreement with Peggie on this from my personal experience. I'm not far from you on the Chesapeake (Rock Creek). With the ES and salt feed I was going through at least a 40 pound bag per month, and that was with just weekend boat use! With freshwater flush and/or being in brackish water it is amazing how much salt the system needs.

I did use the ES in salt water for weeks at a time in FL and Abacos for a number of years. I did not use as much salt (some) but then the darn treatment plates were getting fouled due to the high calcium content in the water there. I felt I had nothing but problems with my ES (it is in my garage along with the salt feed unit here in MD if you would like a great deal).

As for the Purasan, I've got the older chemical feed unit and that does give me some problems every so often (I hear the new system works fine). I go through very few tablets (hockey puck size) annually (maybe 2?).
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Old 03-22-2016, 05:39 PM   #43
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Hi Peggie, one small correction. The Pusisan Ex is a couple hundred bucks more than the Electro Scan. There was a rather large price increase when the EX model came out.

If you decide to go with a Purisan EX, store your spare tablets in glass or ceramic.
I had one of the containers they come in become brittle and crack in a short time just sitting on the shelf. The chlorine gas that came out could have been used as a weapon!
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Old 03-22-2016, 06:04 PM   #44
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Hi Peggie, one small correction. The Pusisan Ex is a couple hundred bucks more than the Electro Scan. There was a rather large price increase when the EX model came out.

I just did a search...and wow, I guess there was! Last time I searched the PS averaged about $200 less than the ES.

I'd still go the PS, though, 'cuz one replacement electrode pack would more than make up the difference.
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Old 03-22-2016, 06:07 PM   #45
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Speaking of electrode packs, another "expense" of the ES over the PS is amps. The ES uses quite a bit more power than the PS.
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Old 03-22-2016, 08:44 PM   #46
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Just a FYI...

The issue with the salt feed unit causes it to use a whole bunch of salt unnecessarily. Bags of salt!

The symptom is that the float valve fails to turn off the flow of water causing a overflow condition. It will then turn off and you're left with a mystery as to why you are out of salt so quickly.

That was what alerted me to the problem. I was running through a bag of salt in just a weekend or two.

A good way to tell if you are having this problem is if you open the lid of the salt feed, the water is at or near the overflow. This should never happen. The water should be no more than a couple of inches above the "grate" that the salt sits on.

If you do the math a 40 lb bag of salt will raise 143 gallons of water to 3.5% (the average salinity of seawater).

I'm guessing here but a marine head does not use as much water as a house head. Probably 1/2 gallon or so per flush, but that's a guess. So, a bag of salt is worth about 286 flushes give or take.

Figure 8 flushes per day per person, two people on board. A bag of salt should last 18 or so days plus or minus. Of full time two people cruising.
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Old 03-22-2016, 09:46 PM   #47
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Speaking of electrode packs, another "expense" of the ES over the PS is amps. The ES uses quite a bit more power than the PS.
The difference isn't that much. The ES has a much higher amperage DRAW than the PS, but the daily AH consumption seems to be much closer than the draws indicate.

At least that's what live-aboard cruising sailors on another board who have one or the other have reported every time the subject has comes up.
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Old 03-22-2016, 10:12 PM   #48
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I have the Purasan connected with a 60 gal holding tank. The main difference is the HNT controller and an extra panel with a keyed switch in the head. We have fresh water flush, and we also frequent the Keys and Biscayne Bay. They are no discharge zones. When we are in a zone we can discharge, the system works like a regular ElectroScan with salt added. When we are in a no discharge zone, we hold for a pump out or until we get back to a discharge zone. Life is not as simple today as in the past, but I like the flexibility.
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Old 03-23-2016, 01:49 AM   #49
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The difference isn't that much. The ES has a much higher amperage DRAW than the PS, but the daily AH consumption seems to be much closer than the draws indicate.

At least that's what live-aboard cruising sailors on another board who have one or the other have reported every time the subject has comes up.
You are all correct.

The Electro Scan was a bigger pia for me because:
1. As Kevin described above, the brine tank would too often not shut off when full, running fresh water continuously.
2. Running massive electrical current makes the treatment tank corrode quickly.
3. Salt is not so easy to come by every place. Pretty much every house in Alaska has a water softener, thus salt is every where. Not so in NYC, therfore hard to find. Also in Nassau, had to take two buses to find and extremely expensive.

Both systems are equally complex or not.

Raritan still offers BOTH types of chlorine tablets, so you must tell them you need the ones that can be shipped by air. They also have a spec sheet, so you should be able to find a suitable pool tablet substitute at a fraction of the cost, but of course if you do that, blah, blah, blah...

Lastly, my setup is both toilets to processing tank, then Y valve to either holding tank or discharge. I like that all is treated. Keeps odors away.

The one time i was inspected by USCG in NC in ICW. NO problem.

Europe even less of an issue.
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Old 03-23-2016, 07:55 AM   #50
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Peggie/Kevin/Kurt/Parks et al: Thanks for all that. I really do appreciate the commentary!


And Kurt, it happens I'd also read your similar ES vs. PS assessment on another forum several months ago, and that's what swayed me toward the PS in the first place. Special thanks to you for that, and also for allowing me to use your thread here to flesh out my understanding of the systems.


Cartridge? Several have said tablets... anyway, sounds like I have to keep the supply up... but I already know what it's like humping around 40-lb bags of salt (for our household system)... so smaller (lighter) sounds better.


Extra cost? Yeah... that's a deal. But only a couple hundred $$$ for parts. OTOH, I'm currently a bit taken aback by our first ballpark figures -- guessing at maybe $2500 installation plus the cost of the system. Not sure I want to do an installation like this myself. It's a significant cost difference, compared to simply replacing my dead macerator (~$150), not using it inshore, and continuing to pump out as often as we did last year.


I think I'm learning I'd need to run a freshwater feed to the chlorine cartridge/tablet/whatever dispenser thingy. That right?


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Old 03-23-2016, 08:22 AM   #51
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Chris,

Yes, the chemical dispenser needs a fresh water line run to it.

I'm probably going to go with an EX unit on my refit project boat. So that means I now have a used ElectroScan (w/ salt feed) and a used Purasan (version 1) to get rid of. I guess it is time for me to see what my eBay seller rating is up to :-)
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Old 03-23-2016, 10:15 AM   #52
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Lastly, my setup is both toilets to processing tank, then Y valve to either holding tank or discharge. I like that all is treated. Keeps odors away.

You DO know that even if waste in the tank has been treated first, it's still illegal to dump the tank inside the "3 mile limit?"

...Cartridge? Several have said tablets... anyway, sounds like I have to keep the supply up...

The "tablets" are in a cartridge, Chris.

I think I'm learning I'd need to run a freshwater feed to the chlorine cartridge/tablet/whatever dispenser thingy. That right?

You already have a cold water line in the head to the sink...a tee fitting (better yet, a shut off valve) and length of hose and you have the fresh water feed.

...guessing at maybe $2500 installation plus the cost of the system. Not sure I want to do an installation like this myself.

Many people do, even though $500 is closer to the typical cost to pay someone to install it.

Might be a good idea to read the instructions instead of jumping to conclusions. The Installation, Operation and Maintenance Guide (aka "owners manual"), which you can download from the Raritan answers most of your questions and Raritan tech support will be glad to answer the ones it doesn't. PuraSan EX Owner’s Manual
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Old 03-23-2016, 10:52 AM   #53
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That link didn't seem to work for the manual. Try this one.
Purasan EX Owners Manual Manufactured after 09/04

And Peggy that was the nicest RTFM suggestion I have read in a long time. :-)
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Old 03-23-2016, 11:29 AM   #54
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Thanks! I downloaded my link from the list of owners manuals on the Raritan website, but it's such a mess right now that half of my bookmarked Raritan links no longer work and neither do a lot of the ones I download to replace 'em.
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Old 03-23-2016, 11:45 AM   #55
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Thanks! I downloaded my link from the list of owners manuals on the Raritan website, but it's such a mess right now that half of my bookmarked Raritan links no longer work and neither do a lot of the ones I download to replace 'em.
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Old 03-24-2016, 07:26 AM   #56
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Thanks, I had already gone through the installation manual... but it was several months ago so I'd forgotten some stuff. And some things I simply didn't/don't understand, anyway, given that I dunno so much about plumbing jargon.

The best (I think) place to install the system is not particularly near the head; it'd be closer to just forward of and slightly under the holding tank, lot o' space, very near the existing discharge thru-hull... essentially in the place where the existing macerator pump lives.

I take it the fresh water feed to the basic Purasan would be a "per flush" thing? But with the HNT controls, maybe not? Anyway, it's not obvious to me (yet) how I can route a fresh water line "per flush" line into that area. Thinking on it...

About $500 for installation would be maybe more doable; in any case, I'm still shopping on potential sources/installers.

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Old 03-24-2016, 08:04 AM   #57
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I take it the fresh water feed to the basic Purasan would be a "per flush" thing? But with the HNT controls, maybe not? Anyway, it's not obvious to me (yet) how I can route a fresh water line "per flush" line into that area. Thinking on it...


-Chris
Chris, that is correct. The water flow to the chemical is controlled by a 12 volt electric solenoid switch connected to the HNT control center. There is a clamp in the line that has to be adjusted to regulate the flow to keep the water at the proper level in the chemical container. You can install a "T" off any water line for the tube connection.
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Old 03-24-2016, 11:15 AM   #58
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Chris,
I am not sure if I understood your question correctly but with the hold-n-treat, the Purasan operates independently of the toilet entirely. Once the holding tank sensor notes that the holding tank has reached a given level it starts to cycle the Purasan. So the water to the chemical is not per flush, but per Purasan cycle.

What I don't know, is that with a Purasan Hold-n-treat, can't the Purasan be installed only in relation to the holding tank? In other words it doesn't matter how far away from the head it is only that it be close enough to the holding tank and a fresh water line?

I agree, if it really was $500 for a quality install by a professional, that might be money well spent in my case. My ignorance and ineptness knows no bounds.
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Old 03-24-2016, 11:16 AM   #59
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Chris, that is correct. The water flow to the chemical is controlled by a 12 volt electric solenoid switch connected to the HNT control center. There is a clamp in the line that has to be adjusted to regulate the flow to keep the water at the proper level in the chemical container. You can install a "T" off any water line for the tube connection.

Ah. I think it's much easier for me to get a water line to if that doesn't have to be controlled by the flush process at the toilet. Might have located the easiest line to access, while I deal with a different problem...

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Old 03-24-2016, 02:57 PM   #60
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Ah. I think it's much easier for me to get a water line to if that doesn't have to be controlled by the flush process at the toilet. Might have located the easiest line to access, while I deal with a different problem...

-Chris
I hooked it up origanlly to the flush line; Wrong, wrong, wrong. Took me a week to figure out. And it was quite comical when I figured out the problem.

Turned out the flush line ONLY had pressure when the toilet was flushed.

Once I took it off the dispenser and looked in the hose as I flushed it, I figured it out.

It needs normal pressured fresh water feed.

Also, as you pointed out and it confused me also at first, the Purisan controls are NOT related to the flush controls. Made installation very easy.

Lastly, I understand the No Discharge Rules. Not to digress, but the simple fact is that the small (less then 1000 feet) boats that use a Type 1 device are NOT the problem. And if the politicians who have their heads up each other's ass would understand that, they would actually make laws that would solve the problem and not cater to interest groups.

I know a number of boaters who live now in NDZ and they don't want to get a Type 1 device because they still can't discharge, so they don't see the point. So what do you think they do instead???

Europe has far more stringent laws. And if you ever go, I will tell you where the ONE pump out station is located.
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