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Old 08-03-2012, 07:09 AM   #61
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Refugio, Keith,
Certainly I remember you.
I am still around and thanks for the kind words.
The teak deck article is out there, get requests for it, literally, every month since I did away with my web page. I will send to you if you like along with a list of 100+ comments.
No, I cannot take credit for the filter suggestion, they really seem to work great from all reports.

About aft visibility, so many on this list, and I have been GUILTY as well, pipe up with opinions that are limited to their particular experience that my be very limited in nature.

As has now been determined in this thread it is REALLY IMPORTANT! On the Gulf of Mexico coast (northern sector) fast crew boats, oh 150-200 feet in length, running fully loaded at 30plus mph can come up behind you, can you say FAST. Some will slow but even then the wake can be HUGE. Knowing one is there is well, beneficial to one's well being. As always, YMMV

Rear view mirrors work on some boats, I have seen them on more than a few trawler types. In my boat I could lean over without getting up and look back through the entry way to the p/h through the length of the salon out the rear salon doors----that is why they were generally open even tho they had glass panes in them.

Hey Susan, why not sign your name over the automatic signature box? That is what I do and my wife, as we have a signature box appended to every e mail that we send that has both names and info.

On this list I still sign CCC, even though the box is automatic, just a thought.
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Old 08-03-2012, 10:26 AM   #62
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I adhere to naval architect Tom Fexas' definition who's the one I read debunk the "semi-displacement" myth. His explanation made all sorts of sense to me.
This "debunked myth" is still standard practice at Westlawn, where Fexus gradauated. Current Westlawn director and naval architect David Gerr uses the term here last year: Talkin Boats
Gerr also has a section in his "Propeller Handbook" describing this hull type in relation to the SL /DL ratio.

In addition, the June 2008 issue of their Masthead publication says this:
"In between displacement speeds and planing speeds is a hybrid region termed "semi-displacement" or "semi-planing".

Sorry, but semi-displacement is not a "debunked myth" - it is current, standard industry practice by the most respected professionals.
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Old 08-03-2012, 10:36 AM   #63
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The teak deck article is out there, get requests for it, literally, every month since I did away with my web page. I will send to you if you like along with a list of 100+ comments.
I have the issue of PM, but I'd be interested in the comments - I'll PM you. And this message can be a breadcrumb for someone looking for it down the road.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:53 PM   #64
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not a problem... just wanting to know.... so... even though we identify our responses as 'Susan and Dan' are there so few women on the forum that everyone assumes that the responder is a man... just curious.. or does it depend on the thread.. if it is more or less technical????
LOL. Susan, I think you and I are among four or five women on here??

I enjoyed the debate about the necessity or lack thereof for rear visibility. Yes I am cruising along at only 8 or 9 knots but where Matt and I boat the waterways tend to be narrow and we are frequently passed by boats moving a lot faster with no warning from them. (horn blasts? radio call? Never happens ) It is amazing to me just how close by people will pass us. We've gotten rocked pretty hard several times. It is nice to have that few seconds notice from having glanced back and seen them coming--gives us a chance to prepare for the ride we are about to get from their wake!!

Also I will slow down if I see a small boat is trying to pass us. Watching them flounder through our wake can be scary. The other weekend two guys in a small ski boat came up directly behind us and cut across our wake literally within 20 feet of the back of our boat. I glanced back just in time to see them do it, no time to slow for them. I thought they were going to get flung out of their boat.

I think if I did not have visibility to the rear I would want a camera so I could still keep an eye out for activity behind me. But to each his own--probably (like so many things) very much depends on where you boat.
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Old 08-03-2012, 05:39 PM   #65
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LOL. Susan, I think you and I are among four or five women on here??

I enjoyed the debate about the necessity or lack thereof for rear visibility. Yes I am cruising along at only 8 or 9 knots but where Matt and I boat the waterways tend to be narrow and we are frequently passed by boats moving a lot faster with no warning from them. (horn blasts? radio call?

....snip...

to the rear I would want a camera so I could still keep an eye out for activity behind me. But to each his own--probably (like so many things) very much depends on where you boat.

I have found in the 10 years of towing vessels where I HAVE to turn around and look behind me regularly...it's NEVER when the one in ten jerk wakes me/passes too close/rounds and heads me off etc...etc...

so seeing behind me on my trawler is no big deal...if I need to see behind me I can unless someone piled their jackets, pillows, etc in front of the aft windows...if that happens...I just open the pilothouse door get out and stroll aft to the stern...the stretch and fresh air is nice anyhow...I'm not one to be afraid to leave the helm for a minute or two even in tighter situations...comes with experience i guess...
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Old 08-03-2012, 05:50 PM   #66
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I have found in the 10 years of towing vessels where I HAVE to turn around and look behind me regularly...it's NEVER when the one in ten jerk wakes me/passes too close/rounds and heads me off etc...etc...

so seeing behind me on my trawler is no big deal...if I need to see behind me I can unless someone piled their jackets, pillows, etc in front of the aft windows...if that happens...I just open the pilothouse door get out and stroll aft to the stern...the stretch and fresh air is nice anyhow...I'm not one to be afraid to leave the helm for a minute or two even in tighter situations...comes with experience i guess...
LOL for me, have to = no, like to be able to = yes. Again, to each his own. Where we boat is kind of interesting scenery wise (people, boats, wild life, buildings on shore, etc) so it is fun to look around and see what is around us.

I get lots of fresh air driving up top, so my strolls are to go down below and make a sandwich or whatever .
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Old 08-03-2012, 05:57 PM   #67
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LOL for me, have to = no, like to be able to = yes. Again, to each his own. Where we boat is kind of interesting scenery wise (people, boats, wild life, buildings on shore, etc) so it is fun to look around and see what is around us.

I get lots of fresh air driving up top, so my strolls are to go down below and make a sandwich or whatever .
Exactly..most drive from the flybridge anyway and when the scenery is good and weather decent that's where most will be..

So the pilothouse might be when most might have the radar on too...and if you know how to use it...will tell you if something is approaching from behind....I just think it's over emphasized for the real need to see aft.
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Old 08-03-2012, 06:22 PM   #68
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Exactly..most drive from the flybridge anyway and when the scenery is good and weather decent that's where most will be..

So the pilothouse might be when most might have the radar on too...and if you know how to use it...will tell you if something is approaching from behind....I just think it's over emphasized for the real need to see aft.
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Old 08-04-2012, 09:32 AM   #69
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Exactly..most drive from the flybridge anyway and when the scenery is good and weather decent that's where most will be..
A flying bridge is completely orthogonal to a RPH - except that good PH (with good all around visibility) obviates the need for a flybridge to pilot from.

Many trawler - e.g. most Nordhavns and Nordic Tugs - do not have flying bridges. A friend commissioned a Northern Marine trawler - which he took in the NAR - without a flying bridge after having had them on previous boats (including a Krogen and GB).

While I can appreciate the advantages of being out in the breeze in a warm climate, in the cooler PNW they are actually used much less often than you'd expect.
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:36 AM   #70
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Exactly..most drive from the flybridge anyway and when the scenery is good and weather decent that's where most will be..

So the pilothouse might be when most might have the radar on too...and if you know how to use it...will tell you if something is approaching from behind....I just think it's over emphasized for the real need to see aft.

We drive from the pilothouse 100% of the time. Its just too cold in Alaska to enjoy driving from the flybridge.

Our boat has poor visibility aft. Its enough to glance out and confirm whats on the radar, but not enough for docking. Because of that I dock from the flybridge.

As far as aft visibility goes, I'd be hard pressed to make a boat buying decision based on that. There are so many more important things to make a decision based on, and there are no perfect boats.
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:49 AM   #71
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Ocean Alexander is another builder of pilothouse models...
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Old 08-04-2012, 12:51 PM   #72
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We drive from the pilothouse 100% of the time. Its just too cold in Alaska to enjoy driving from the flybridge.

Our boat has poor visibility aft. Its enough to glance out and confirm whats on the radar, but not enough for docking. Because of that I dock from the flybridge.

As far as aft visibility goes, I'd be hard pressed to make a boat buying decision based on that. There are so many more important things to make a decision based on, and there are no perfect boats.
And I can relate...because my job is on the water I am very sensitive to being out in the sun ALL the time...

I probably will be driving from below most of the time too and I'm sure I'll get the stares from the weekender types who love that sun, wind and salt spray in their face...had enough of that back 30 years ago and now look forward to a quiet, cool, enjoyable helm station!
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Old 08-04-2012, 12:58 PM   #73
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A flying bridge is completely orthogonal to a RPH - except that good PH (with good all around visibility) obviates the need for a flybridge to pilot from.

Many trawler - e.g. most Nordhavns and Nordic Tugs - do not have flying bridges. A friend commissioned a Northern Marine trawler - which he took in the NAR - without a flying bridge after having had them on previous boats (including a Krogen and GB).

While I can appreciate the advantages of being out in the breeze in a warm climate, in the cooler PNW they are actually used much less often than you'd expect.
or·thog·o·nal
adj \ȯr-ˈthä-gə-nəl\
Definition of ORTHOGONAL
1
a: intersecting or lying at right angles b: having perpendicular slopes or tangents at the point of intersection <orthogonal curves>
2
: having a sum of products or an integral that is zero or sometimes one under specified conditions: as aof real-valued functions: having the integral of the product of each pair of functions over a specific interval equal to zero bof vectors: having the scalar product equal to zero cof a square matrix: having the sum of products of corresponding elements in any two rows or any two columns equal to one if the rows or columns are the same and equal to zero otherwise : having a transpose with which the product equals the identity matrix
3
of a linear transformation: having a matrix that is orthogonal : preserving length and distance
4
: composed of mutually orthogonal elements <an orthogonal basis of a vector space>
5
: statistically independent
or·thog·o·nal·i·ty \-ˌthä-gə-ˈna-lə-tē\noun
or·thog·o·nal·ly \-ˈthä-gə-nəl-ē\adverb
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Old 08-04-2012, 01:04 PM   #74
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And I thought that was a medical profession.
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Old 08-05-2012, 01:38 AM   #75
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Sorry, but semi-displacement is not a "debunked myth" - it is current, standard industry practice by the most respected professionals.
Well, I think it's a misleading term.. Just because a lot of people adhere to it doesn't make it right. Semi- displacement is a nonsensical term because displacement describes a specific type of hull characteristic that has only one state of existence. As Fexas argued, a hull is either displacement or it's not. Using the term semi-displacement, he said, is like using the term semi-dead.

So while it may be that some respected naval architects still use the term I think Fexas' argument (and I've read articles in which other people in the marine industry make the same argument) makes a whole lot more logical sense.
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Old 08-05-2012, 01:39 AM   #76
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Old 08-05-2012, 01:55 AM   #77
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Well, I think it's a misleading term.. Just because a lot of people adhere to it doesn't make it right. Semi- displacement is a nonsensical term because displacement describes a specific type of hull characteristic that has only one state of existence. As Fexas argued, a hull is either displacement or it's not. Using the term semi-displacement, he said, is like using the term semi-dead.

So while it may be that some respected naval architects still use the term I think Fexas' argument (and I've read articles in which other people in the marine industry make the same argument) makes a whole lot more logical sense.

Bebe agrees with you in Voyaging Under Power.
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:38 AM   #78
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" Many of the tug guys I know think we are nothing but speed bumps.

Maybe now after the duck boat thing in Philly...they may not be so arrogant...or at least not be on their phones when they run us over..."

Really ??
We just live to run over recreational boats, Psneeld. I would have expected more from a so called professional mariner. Our arrogance is only exceeded by our love of running over speed bumps.
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:45 AM   #79
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" Many of the tug guys I know think we are nothing but speed bumps.

Maybe now after the duck boat thing in Philly...they may not be so arrogant...or at least not be on their phones when they run us over..."

Really ??
We just live to run over recreational boats, Psneeld. I would have expected more from a so called professional mariner.
Sorry but it's true of many guys I have dealt with...I know it's a flippant statement but in crowded areas when the rec boats are cutting under your bow on a regular basis...what's the guy pushing/pulling/driving more than a million pounds gonna do? Stop on a dime? Change course by 45 degrees in less than 30 seconds? Probably not. It's not just tug guys only....it's a lot of commercial operators that are frustrated by so many unknowing/irresponsible rec boaters.

The point isn't that they want to run over someone...but some rec boaters make it pretty hard not to.

And I retract the "arrogant" statement...didn't mean it in that way...after rethinking it should have been more along the lines of "after the Philly duck boat incident...they should be more worried that knuckleheads (not the duck boat in this case) will put them is unwinnable situations." And in the philly case...well ...that wasn't good....

Sorry if I offended anyone...
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Old 08-05-2012, 08:59 AM   #80
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Re: PH and FB are orthogonal

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Definition of ORTHOGONAL
...
5: statistically independent
Indeed, while I was intending it as hyperbole, I think it's quite true.

If I told you that boat X had a FB, would that help you predict whether that boat also had a PH? Or if I told you it had a PH, would that help you predict the existence of a FB? In both cases I would assert that the answer is "no", and that they are statistically independent.

I do recall one edge case: a Hatteras 58YF that had an extended hardtop on the FB, completely enclosed, with an interior set of stairs to the main deck. It was heated and cooled and had extensive electronics. I think you could make the argument that it was both a FB and a PH. <smile>
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