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Old 07-31-2012, 09:20 AM   #21
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I am looking through all the suggestions on boat models. I have always liked the Krogens as well. I especially like the new 52' Express I saw at TrawlerFest and Annapolis last year. When did they begin making that model? Or is there a similar older model of different LOA?

.
I think that Krogen designed the express models, but sold the design to another manufacturer. The first were built as 49' and then it was lenghtened. It is a great boat. It has many of the good features of the Krogen lay out. The twin engines will allow it to cruise at displacement speeds or up to the high teens. Much flexibility. To me it is also good looking. Of course it looks best in the dark hull colors.

Here is a link. If you are near Hilton Head, SC they usually have one at Windmill Harbor.

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Old 07-31-2012, 11:44 AM   #22
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While the rear facing windows in the pilot house are great for looking aft, I see a lot of boats out there with aft facing cameras. Don't know how effective these are for anything. I suppose they're more for docking and such. Does anyone have "back up cameras" on their boat, and if so, how and when do you use them, how far back can you see, and how clear is the picture?
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Old 07-31-2012, 01:59 PM   #23
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While the rear facing windows in the pilot house are great for looking aft, I see a lot of boats out there with aft facing cameras. Don't know how effective these are for anything. I suppose they're more for docking and such. Does anyone have "back up cameras" on their boat, and if so, how and when do you use them, how far back can you see, and how clear is the picture?
Except for docking...seeing aft is no big deal as the rules of the road really infer that seeing aft isn't a requirement.

If you want to see aft just for cruising...take a peek outside if your boat allows it either from a door,window or somehow peering aft. Once every 10 minutes or so in a 7 kt ot trawler is usually more than enough.

If you need to see aft for docking...you are best served by looking at cameras that give you what you need...wide angle, near view, point of view, etc...etc...install it and see how it does...they are getting cheaper every day.
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Old 07-31-2012, 02:06 PM   #24
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Except for docking...seeing aft is no big deal as the rules of the road really infer that seeing aft isn't a requirement.
Well, it's a pretty big deal for me. To get to/from Puget Sound I have to transit the Lake Washington Ship Canal - and knowing what's behind me is critical as I navigate around and through the slow movers, human-powered craft, sailboats waiting for bridges, boats trying to time their arrival at a bridge or the locks, et cetera.

And up in the islands, being able to keep track of all the traffic transitting the passes is very important to me - I can see the ferries and commercial boats on AIS, but everyone else I really want to see.

Every time you make a course change you have to make sure you're not turning in front of someone coming from behind. I think that might be a "requirement". <smile>
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Old 07-31-2012, 02:55 PM   #25
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I kind of figured that the cameras were more for close quarters manuvering than anything else.

The ability to look back is a necessity as I see it. The ability to step out onto a port or starboard side deck and see what's what would be better than an aft facing window. But the window would work better in inclement weather when poking your head out in the rain probably isn't the best thing to do.
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Old 07-31-2012, 03:17 PM   #26
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Well, it's a pretty big deal for me. To get to/from Puget Sound I have to transit the Lake Washington Ship Canal - and knowing what's behind me is critical as I navigate around and through the slow movers, human-powered craft, sailboats waiting for bridges, boats trying to time their arrival at a bridge or the locks, et cetera.

And up in the islands, being able to keep track of all the traffic transitting the passes is very important to me - I can see the ferries and commercial boats on AIS, but everyone else I really want to see.

Every time you make a course change you have to make sure you're not turning in front of someone coming from behind. I think that might be a "requirement". <smile>
Actually it's not...thus the not seeing behind you being a big deal...many vessels you can't see behind you from the bridge...thus the nav rules say those coming from behind are the give way vessel.

Wow...sounds so much busier than New York harbor, or the Chesapeake or the Savannah River...ooooooh...
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Old 07-31-2012, 04:25 PM   #27
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Actually it's not...thus the not seeing behind you being a big deal...many vessels you can't see behind you from the bridge...thus the nav rules say those coming from behind are the give way vessel.

Wow...sounds so much busier than New York harbor, or the Chesapeake or the Savannah River...ooooooh...

Regardless of how busy a location might be, and also recognizing rules about the 'give way' vessel.... like refugio, I would rather have as complete a picture of the traffic as possible and avoid any potential problems. As we all know, even if you have the right of way, dead is still dead!

Luckily, we have both rear facing windows in our pilot house and port and starboard access to walk-around decks to check out the traffic. An added advantage, is that we can easily access the flybridge area using our interior pilot house stairs to get a full picture of the traffic around us. Concern about safety was a big reason for choosing our Sea Ranger.
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Old 07-31-2012, 05:14 PM   #28
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That is one thing I will say about our 4550 bayliner- no real aft visibility from the pilothouse. Yes, I can hop up the 3 steps to the flybridge to look around, poke my head out the doors port or starboard, lean down and look aft through the cockpit door and cockpit bulkhead windows and even try and peek through the glass door to the flybridge from pilothouse (most of view blocked by my dinghy mounted aft of the flybridge seating) but really- 2 nice windows facing aft would be nice. Maybe I need to mount some of these port and starboard haha:
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Old 07-31-2012, 05:40 PM   #29
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Maybe I need to mount some of these port and starboard haha:
I wouldn't mind having a couple of those too!
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Old 07-31-2012, 05:41 PM   #30
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Regardless of how busy a location might be, and also recognizing rules about the 'give way' vessel.... like refugio, I would rather have as complete a picture of the traffic as possible and avoid any potential problems. As we all know, even if you have the right of way, dead is still dead!

Luckily, we have both rear facing windows in our pilot house and port and starboard access to walk-around decks to check out the traffic. An added advantage, is that we can easily access the flybridge area using our interior pilot house stairs to get a full picture of the traffic around us. Concern about safety was a big reason for choosing our Sea Ranger.
I never remotely inferred that you shouldn't have a complete picture of traffic around you...

I just feel that at 6-8 knots...you can leave the helm, walk back to the windows, walk outside, go up to the flying bridge...walk all the way around a 40 footer like mine and never even remotely be in danger of hitting something.

If you feel like you need a rearview camera..heck go for it...I feel like I am a competent, safe, on top of things skipper without one..because I get out of the helm chair and check things out...
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Old 07-31-2012, 05:41 PM   #31
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...thus the nav rules say those coming from behind are the give way vessel...
Ane we're off to the races again...

"behind" is inexact, the actual reg is 22.5 degrees abaft the beam.

But it's much simpler than that - if you are "in sight" of another vessel you are required to give a whistle signal - how are you going to know if you are "in sight" of the other vessel if you don't freaking look?

And, of course, both vessels are required to avoid a collision. The idea that you can just maneuver at will without checking astern because if there were someone there they would be "overtaking" is irresponsible.
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Old 07-31-2012, 05:50 PM   #32
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I never remotely inferred that you shouldn't have a complete picture of traffic around you...

I just feel that at 6-8 knots...you can leave the helm, walk back to the windows, walk outside, go up to the flying bridge...walk all the way around a 40 footer like mine and never even remotely be in danger of hitting something.

If you feel like you need a rearview camera..heck go for it...I feel like I am a competent, safe, on top of things skipper without one..because I get out of the helm chair and check things out...
Never said or even thought that you inferred that you shouldn't have a complete picture of traffic around you...I only wanted to reinforce the idea that if someone feels insecure about the tools they have, that they should add whatever works for them. Haven't investigated too much about the review camera.... although it could be a useful tool.. I was more interested in suggesting that rear windows. side decks and access to fly bridge can be helpful.
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Old 07-31-2012, 05:54 PM   #33
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Wow...sounds so much busier than New York harbor, or the Chesapeake or the Savannah River...ooooooh...
Busier? I dunno, but Lake Union - or any other metropolitan harbor - on the 4th of July is pretty busy:


Or SeaFair watching the Blue Angels (none of these boats are anchored):
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Old 07-31-2012, 06:04 PM   #34
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rear windows. side decks and access to fly bridge can be helpful.
Indeed, though they aren't really the same - moving to _both_ side decks to get a full view behind and on both quarters is a lot of moving around - time where you are away from the wheel and not paying attention forward. I often have guests in my PH and keeping them away from the side doors when "things are happening" is not easy, especially with younger folk.

I don't have a flying bridge (and I have 1/2" clearance above my steaming light when in my covered slip while the lake is high, so it's something I'm going to live without) but IMHO, being able to stand at the wheel AND turn to look astern and at both quarters is a valuable feature of a PH - and if I couldn't do that, I'd personally prefer a sedan model where I could at least look back through the saloon.
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Old 07-31-2012, 06:11 PM   #35
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I don't have a flying bridge (and I have 1/2" clearance above my steaming light when in my covered slip while the lake is high, so it's something I'm going to live without) but IMHO, being able to stand at the wheel AND turn to look astern and at both quarters is a valuable feature of a PH - and if I couldn't do that, I'd personally prefer a sedan model where I could at least look back through the saloon.
In my last post, I mentioned that I agreed with you... we do have windows that we can see from the pilothouse position and they are quite valuable... we only added that port and starboard access to walk-around decks to check out the traffic and easy access to the flybridge area using our interior pilot house stairs made things even easier.
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Old 07-31-2012, 06:14 PM   #36
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In my last post, I mentioned that I agreed with you...
As did I ("Indeed")!

You are clearly a man of perception and sound judgement.
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Old 07-31-2012, 06:17 PM   #37
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As did I ("Indeed")!

You are clearly a man of perception and sound judgement.
Actually, most of our posts, but not all, are by me... a woman!!!!
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Old 07-31-2012, 06:19 PM   #38
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Actually, most of our posts, but not all, are by me... a woman!!!!
Busted! I thought of that possibility as I was writing the post but I was in such a hurry to read the Marin thread that I just winged it.
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Old 07-31-2012, 06:23 PM   #39
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Busted! I thought of that possibility as I was writing the post but I was in such a hurry to read the Marin thread that I just winged it.
That's okay... I usually check with Dan that anything I post is something we both agree with... I just type faster!
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Old 07-31-2012, 06:31 PM   #40
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I can identify with Refugio's point about seeing behind you when cruising in this area. While there may be nothing in the Colregs spelling out rearward vision requirements, that does nothing to alleviate the problem of faster boats, particularly the small sportfishing boats(like our Arima) that are so popular around here. These guys are fishermen first, boaters second. I suspect the world "colreg" to most of them either implies some kind of medical procedure or a type of fishing accessory.

So they come blasting along at 30mph or more and there is no telling what they're going to do, what side they're going to pass you on, or what they assume you're going to do. So it is very prudent to always check behind before altering course because you never know if one of these folks could be zipping up on your stern with the intention of passing you just a couple of boat lengths away.

And in the narrower passes used by the ferries it's good to know if one is following you, even if it's a mile or two back as their speed is deceptively much greater than most diesel crusers like ours.

A GB has very good visibility all around from the main cabin with two windows in the aft cabin bulkhead. However we have a sailing dinghy on our aft cabin top so this blocks a lot of the view out the larger aft window on the starboard side. But as psneeld said, I can lean over and look aft down the starboard side deck and there is an aft window on the port side.

For close-in maneuvering and docking the visiblity from the lower helm is fine and we both have a good feel for where our stern is even if we don't actually step out and look at it. And the visibility around the sailing dinghy is sufficient for this sort of slow maneuvering work.
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