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Old 11-23-2019, 06:21 AM   #61
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RADAR use if fitted it NOT mandatory as far as I know....it is up to the captain and his definition of "prevailing circumstances". The USCG addresses it in the NAVRULES FAQs. Even though the one sentence says you must use it, the rest of the discussion is contradictory and is NOT what the rule actually says (thus the "must" is really opinion in this writing, not law).


11. Am I required to have Radar? Radar is not required on vessels under 1600 GT (33 CFR 164.35), however, Rule 7 states that proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational. In other words, whoever has one must use it. The Navigation Rules are not meant to discourage the use of any device, rather they expect prudent mariners to avail themselves of all available means appropriate...as to make full appraisal of the situation (Rule 5), e.g. the use of radar. At issue is whether the use of radar is appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and that is a determination made by the Master; and, ultimately decided by a trier of fact.

Should you be in a collision how would a judge/jury rule on your contention that the use of radar was impracticable (due to electrical drain, crew shortages, etc.)? Also, if a collision does occur, then there was obviously a risk of collision beforehand. Could the determination of that risk have been made sooner with the use of radar? It is difficult to answer such questions because the circumstances of each case are different.

More importantly, remember that Rule 7 specifies that assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information, especially scanty radar information.




https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageNam...ulesFAQ#0.3_11
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Old 11-23-2019, 07:12 AM   #62
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The IRPCS (International Regulations for the Prevention of Collision at Sea) Rule 7 states:

"Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects."

Hence, before casting off and after mooring up, radar must be 'on' to comply. However, some local inland waters bye-laws may have a differing rule although I've never found one.

Not only does seamanship call for radar to be on and used (...proper use...') it hones the skill of the user for when it becomes vital to use, in which case Rule 19 becomes the absolute in collision avoidance.

For an explanation of Rule 19 and how to use your radar in restricted visibility was published in the last Passage Maker - I admit, I was the author!

Has "proper" ever been defined in a court of law as meaning always on? Or on when the captain deems proper?
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Old 11-23-2019, 08:52 AM   #63
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While one court can make it precedence, another one might find differently.... I am guessing like dissenting opinions.
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Old 11-23-2019, 09:14 AM   #64
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In my earlier post (#18) I mentioned the benefits of using radar as a rear view mirror while helming the boat. I now have the benefit of using it to compliment my watch stander when I go below for a coffee or head call. By running an HDMI cable from the MFD on the bridge to the salon's smart TV, I can now augment the fly bridge watch stander on a 43" TV! I just love this stuff as I approach 80!
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Old 11-23-2019, 10:09 AM   #65
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Here in the PNW, we turn it on as soon as we hit open water. Unless there is fog, then it is turned on as soon as we untie.

Have it on all the time and you become acclimated to it's operation and more comfortable when fog descends. During the day, radar is used for calculating crossing situations if the other boat does not transmit AIS. And to see what's behind and all around without turning my head.

But where you are, is there fog?

Must use the radar at night?
Ditto and have it on always at night because, in addition to other vessels nearby, it shows the coastline, obstacles, rocks, riprap, bridge columns and navaids.
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Old 11-23-2019, 10:25 AM   #66
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Ditto and have it on always at night because, in addition to other vessels nearby, it shows the coastline, obstacles, rocks, riprap, bridge columns and navaids.
Back before electronic charting became affordable and accurate, we used the radar as a plotter as you described.

We have separate displays for plotter and radar. Radar overlay on plotters is not as useful as advertised. Separate screens are easier to decipher. Too many years looking at two screens.
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Old 11-23-2019, 10:44 AM   #67
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I generally turn on thee Radar. then I know how to use it when I need it.
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Old 11-23-2019, 01:32 PM   #68
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Has "proper" ever been defined in a court of law as meaning always on? Or on when the captain deems proper?
To misquote Forest Gump, "Proper is as proper does" and people who quote the COLREGS as justification for claiming the radar must be on at all times underway, just do not completely understand the rule. Back before that rule was ever written, I spent a lot of hours on watch on a destroyer with the operable radar OFF because the captain wanted no give-away emissions while passing unfriendly coastlines, day and night. He would have probably considered it proper to switch it on had we entered rain/fog. Once the radar rule was added, we all had to get smart about the implications.
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Old 11-23-2019, 01:57 PM   #69
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To misquote Forest Gump, "Proper is as proper does" and people who quote the COLREGS as justification for claiming the radar must be on at all times underway, just do not completely understand the rule. Back before that rule was ever written, I spent a lot of hours on watch on a destroyer with the operable radar OFF because the captain wanted no give-away emissions while passing unfriendly coastlines, day and night. He would have probably considered it proper to switch it on had we entered rain/fog. Once the radar rule was added, we all had to get smart about the implications.
This is a bit of apples and oranges, none of us are military and worried about emissions. The bottom line question is why would you not have it on any time you are underway? Are you afraid of wearing it out? It is another tool that may possibly make you safer. And if it doesn’t make you safer, what does it hurt to have it on???
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Old 11-23-2019, 02:17 PM   #70
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The military comment was not made to apply to small civilian craft; it was made to show that it is quite safe to pilot vessels without radar in appropriate weather.

A radar spinning around overhead on a clear day here does not inherently make me safer when underway in my boat. Because traffic is far more dense, including hard to see kayaks, on a nice day, paying close attention to radar for collision avoidance purposes will have the opposite effect around here. Radar properly used by a properly knowledgeable person running at proper (safe) speed in conditions warranting radar use does make one safer on the water. It's a fine difference, but if I see some closed up pleasure boat coming at me on a clear day with an open array radar spinning, I will likely be watching him more closely than one where I can see the skipper on the fly bridge looking around.

I use my radar when it will add to safety afloat.
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Old 11-23-2019, 02:21 PM   #71
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When it is day, CAVU, and in miles of twisting, turning, shallow, ICW.....

I consider it a distraction more than a benefit to avoid a collision.


Then again, maybe it's just my experience, but except at night or limited vis, in small boats like most of ours....I never had trouble avoiding a collision just using my eyeballs.

Heck the CFRs only require RADAR to be fitted on vessels greater than 1600gross tons with a few exceptions.

Yeah, back in the day when it first started getting to be good on small boats I thought it was neat. Thousands of more hours underway slowly dinminished it's novelty.
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Old 11-23-2019, 02:37 PM   #72
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I am not saying to focus on the radar when the weather is good. However having it on enables me to check what I see with my eyes on the radar, for distance, etc. however if the radar is off it takes too long to power it up. Just because the radar is on doesn’t mean that you have to even look at it, only if you want to look at it.
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Old 11-23-2019, 02:39 PM   #73
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So if I don"t have to look at it to avoid collisions, then whether it's on or off is immaterial.
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Old 11-23-2019, 03:00 PM   #74
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Once the engine is started, all electronics get turned on, including radar. I pretty much only use it as an overlay on the plotter, since on the Simrad 4G the plotter is set to north up (my choice) while the radar will only do heading up when viewed on it's own. Too confusing to use them split screen.
As mentioned, the benefits are significant; good rearview awareness, although not all vessels, even in the 40-50' range provide a good return, and situational awareness when anchoring are two areas that stand out.
But because I only use the radar as an overlay, I often turn it off briefly when close to shore as the return obscures the shoreline definition on the plotter.
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Old 11-23-2019, 03:16 PM   #75
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So if I don"t have to look at it to avoid collisions, then whether it's on or off is immaterial.
No, what I mean is that you don’t have to loose situational awareness by concentrating on the radar in good weather, but if you want to check distance to a target, if it is on then it is simple to do. However if it is off it takes too long to warm up so the radar is of no use. But if you are set on keeping it off, then keep it off. I see no reason to not have all of your tools available for immediate use.
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Old 11-23-2019, 03:50 PM   #76
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I have bags and bags of tools on my boat...but "experience" has taught me which ones I need to bring for each job.

Losing situational awareness is an insidious thing.

It took hundreds of years till crew coordination training and risk management programs were developed to overcome that very issue. It also takes regular practice..... Hardly what the average recreational boater including me does on a regular basis.

All those years in the rescue and assistance business proved to me that boaters from beginners to very experienced ones lose situational awareness on a regular basis.

Plus.. again ....90% of collsion avoidance is not getting close in the first place and avoiding constant bearing decreasing range. Absolute distance is pretty irrelavent in the big scheme of things to a small boat in good or better boating conditions.
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Old 11-23-2019, 03:53 PM   #77
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No, what I mean is that you don’t have to loose situational awareness by concentrating on the radar in good weather, but if you want to check distance to a target, if it is on then it is simple to do. However if it is off it takes too long to warm up so the radar is of no use. But if you are set on keeping it off, then keep it off. I see no reason to not have all of your tools available for immediate use.
My Furuno MFD, which is ALWAYS on for navigation charts and depth sounding when I am underway is also where my radar displays. I can push a couple of buttons and have radar in about 20 seconds if I need to range on something to the accuracy of which you speak. Haven't found the need since I bought the boat in Jun 2015, but it's there. So in one sense, part of my radar is always on.
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Old 11-23-2019, 03:55 PM   #78
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When it is day, CAVU, and in miles of twisting, turning, shallow, ICW.....

I consider it a distraction more than a benefit to avoid a collision.


Then again, maybe it's just my experience, but except at night or limited vis, in small boats like most of ours....I never had trouble avoiding a collision just using my eyeballs.

Heck the CFRs only require RADAR to be fitted on vessels greater than 1600gross tons with a few exceptions.

Yeah, back in the day when it first started getting to be good on small boats I thought it was neat. Thousands of more hours underway slowly diminished it's novelty.
Yep, yes, amen
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Old 11-23-2019, 03:58 PM   #79
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I have bags and bags of tools on my boat...but "experience" has taught me which ones I need to bring for each job.

Losing situational awareness is an insidious thing.

It took hundreds of years till crew coordination training and risk management programs were developed to overcome that very issue. It also takes regular practice..... Hardly what the average recreational boater including me does on a regular basis.

All those years in the rescue and assistance business proved to me that boaters from beginners to very experienced ones lose situational awareness on a regular basis.

Plus.. again ....90% of collsion avoidance is not getting close in the first place and avoiding constant bearing decreasing range. Absolute distance is pretty irrelavent in the big scheme of things to a small boat in good or better boating conditions.

Agreed. No radar at all on my boat, so I avoid night running for the most part. And if visibility is such that I'd need radar to navigate safely, I'm not going anywhere. Radar would be nice to have, but for a lot of my daytime running, I can't say it would really give me much useful information that my eyes don't already gather.
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Old 11-23-2019, 04:16 PM   #80
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When you need Radar, best to have it and be good at it. No argument from me.

But using the navrules in ths case just seems silly....sure there are busy commercial areas where it truly helps ( if AIS hasn't already told you). I see it as an issue forl arge, hard to manuever vessels...but not us.

An broad daylight, clear vis and somewhat confined waters? Can't even relate to feeling the need for it.
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