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Old 01-17-2015, 06:14 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
Answer: Foster's cousin
My recollection: To get full value out of an under-performing company, Fosters spun "Treasury Wine Estates Ltd." out of Fosters, so that the Fosters beer enterprise could be sold, I believe it was bought by Millers SA. The wine business continues, housing the US Beringer brands (may not have been a great acquisition) and many other brands, including Rosemount (bought at full value+ from Bob Oatley, owner of "Wild Oats", multiple Sydney-Hobart line honors winner beating Comanche this year) Wynns, and the celebrated maker Penfolds, whose top shelf iconic "Grange" wine sells at around $600 a bottle, though they make wines in all price ranges.

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Old 01-17-2015, 09:46 PM   #42
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I'm not much into this beer thing but I do know where to get a really high quality beer. It's at the LaConner Brewery in the obvious place in Washington State. The beer referred to is " Imperial Stout".

Re quality of boats I remember when a common measure of quality in a boat was whether or not it was made w a chopper gun layup. Those boats that could claim all hand layup and no chopper gun use were considered quality.
When I worked at Uniflite there was a story about a couple of our engineering dept people went down to the boat launch on their lunch time and discovered a boat owner that had pushed hard on his boat to nudge it off the trailer and pushed a hole in the boat. He wanted to come up to our facility and see how quality boats were made. The Uniflite was a quality boat and had a solid reputation locally and nationally.

There are some simple things that stick out even to a novice that are an "indication" of quality. Cheap boats will have small cleats, anchor winches and cheap anchors. Every outsourced item will be small, cheap or even non-existent. There will be little or no sound or thermal insulation. Variations in models will be achieved in the easiest possible ways. Same engines for all when different engines would be more appropriate .. a typical shortcut in many trawlers. Methods and materials are the cheapest possible in a boat w/o much quality.

These are all things that almost anybody can see if they compare other boats. But sometimes just about all builders will take the same shortcuts to give them the advantage of competitive pricing.

So some degree of quality is easy to see but high quality is more elusive. Most high quality boats are made in small numbers and most of us just aren't familiar w what it is. A boat w a big high end anchor winch and a big Spade or Rocna is a good indication. But most of us have little need to know really high quality as few will see it and even fewer will experience it.

Nowadays quality in most boats may be high enough for most people unlike in the 70s. And the quality of a used boat will be found in how the old boat was used and maintained. Probably a much higher level of quality can be found by looking at the condition much harder than the original build quality. However an average boat sees much more use and abuse during it's construction than most people would imagine. Mistakes are made and repairs are needed and preformed that may be not of the quality of the boat being built so some boats are quite "used" before the 1st owner steps aboard.

So probably the highest level of quality in a boat can be found looking at condition and past history rather than brand reputation. But for those that don't buy the biggest boat that their money can buy may find a real quality boat. There are some to many here on TF that enjoy that position in boat ownership.

The above is from my experience and opinions only.


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Old 01-17-2015, 09:52 PM   #43
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Well,,,I suppose small high quality would be less expensive than large high quality. I'm just not into small.
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Old 01-18-2015, 12:27 AM   #44
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There is another aspect of boat quality that rarely pops up with trawlers. This is something found more often in wooden boats and low volume custom boats. That particular quality factor I am eluding to is the artistic and fine finish aspects of a boat. While these things may not have a great deal to do with the boats function there are enough people around to support builders who specialize in this area. Very often boats with this level of high finish are also of high quality in all other regards. Unfortunately the labor materials and inefficiency of small scale production that go into this type of boat brings the price beyond the threshold of the general boating population. There are production boats that strive for quality that try to include these things but price and the need to appeal to a wider market is a handicap.
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Old 01-18-2015, 01:47 AM   #45
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Another very necessary quality for when purchasing any decades old FRP classic boats:

To not have hull's structure having any wood thinly (or thickly) encased in fiberglass where it can have or will become saturated with water and rot.


- Hull in general via "Cold-Lam" method
- Stringers
- Transom
- Keel
- Bow Stem
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Old 01-18-2015, 02:02 AM   #46
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I'll avoid the current oil thread as it is a rehash of the thread we had two years ago. I even see a bit of progress.

But quality? Well hey! How can one resist?

I suppose it depends if we are discussing the subjective or objective concepts of quality? I get the feeling you are looking for objective quality, right?

Subjective concepts of quality would be your own perspectives on the nature of quality and the inherent satisfaction that it brings you (and only you). If you are content, it's has a high inherent quality. It it brings you frustration, it is perceived as low quality until either your mindset or a physical change is made to bring you back to contentedness again.

For me, I generally like my boat, as it looks (to me) "right" and I have changed a lot of things to increase it's reliability and function to meet my needs. I also am encouraged when I have non-boaters see my screen saver at work and say "Wow, I like your boat!" which implies there is some kind of inherent quality perceived by the unwashed. Then I proudly show them some picture from my hard drive and they squeal "Oooo, it's like a tugboat on the outside and a RV on the inside! Why is the toilet so small? Is that real wood? Is it tippy? How much does it cost? What's with the funny stove?" I start to explain, but then they say "Let me show you my hobby!" and pull out their phone and show me pictures of some chromed out Harley with furniture sized leather seating, their Winston Churchill looking cross-eyed grand-baby (girl?), or (the worst) a maltese-shitzu-poodle-cross "with a sweater I knitted" sitting on Daddy's lap! I mumble something about being really kinda busy and have to get this inspection report done. Suddenly their just as busy as well. We both silently acknowledge the rip in the psycho-social fabric binding us that just occurred and move on.

Quality? pffft...

Now objective quality would be measure of the nature of quality as it exists in a measurable criteria, independent of the way that it is being subjectively interpreted. If I'm talking about fasteners, I might specify a 2 1/2"-8 x 24" ASME SA193 Grade B7M stud fastened with a ASME SA194 2HM nut, lubricated with Jet-Lube Nikal and torqued to 10,000 lb ft. If all of the criteria are measured and met, I have achieved a quality assemblage.

Quality? Beautiful, isn't it?

But every once in a while, I might get someone who glances at the screen saver and says "Hey, nice boat." I peer at them suspiciously as they reach for their phone awaiting the onslaught of pictures of their jar collection (this one's a block letter Ball jar, before they changed to script in 1895...), but then relax as they say "What's that, an American Tug?" And we are off... I explain it's actually an ancient old 26' Nordic Tug ("no way really, it looks bigger than that"), and how I re-powered it, replumbed it, how I got this used Furuno radar for 100 bucks from some guy in Florida, how I'm working on sound deadening my auto pilot reversing pump, but I need to replace the worn seals on the ports, and blah, blah, blah...

It turns out he has a new (your favourite boat manufacturer name here).
Vacuum bagged vinyl ester infused resin foam cored decks made from a cnc machined mold. Kevlar and carbon reinforced parts of the hull and stringers. Aquadrive, dripless seals. All high quality (there's that word) stuff.

We both sincerely admire each others boats and comment on the build quality of both, even though they are thirty some years apart.

He admits his wife would never put up with the (lack of) amenities on my boat, but it sure is pretty. I'm happy my wife didn't see the pictures of his granite counter tops in the head, but I think his boat looks like it was designed by a robot.

So really, which type of quality is more important to you in the long run; Comparable objective quality, or subjective personal quality?

Really. Discount perceptions of "build" quality. Just because it is built to a higher standard that may not impart the same proportion of satisfaction or level of function. Persig went mad for a reason.

It's a recreational boat, not a tool.

Unless it is a tool; then build it to strict specifications, and ensure QC and verify QA...
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Old 01-18-2015, 05:19 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by No Mast View Post
There are of course some construction techniques with advantages over others. For example with cored fiberglass a honeycomb core is, to me anyway, superior than a wood core. Unlike wood, it won't rot and if water gets in it will not spread past where the leak is. There are hundreds if not thousands of choices like these in designs and materials. However unless you're custom building from scratch many have been made for you. And if you're buying used, well most all have. What i think it's better to focus on is what do you want to do with the boat in the next 5-6 years.

This will formulate a list of needs. You can split them into "must haves" and "like to have" then back into the design, materials and construction of the boats that fit the bill.

For example, if I were buying a boat to do the great loop a must have is a max height under a certain amount so I can fit under all bridges. On the other hand stabilizers may be a nice to have if needed at all. However if I was buying a boat to cruise back and forth from Bermuda, I wouldn't care about the max height but stabilizers become a must have.

I think with your list of needs then looking at what's available in your budget becomes an easier approach.

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