Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 12-23-2015, 02:00 PM   #121
Al
Guru
 
Al's Avatar
 
City: ketchikan, Alaska
Country: usa
Vessel Name: 'SLO'~BELLE
Vessel Model: 1978 Marben-27' Flybridge Trawler Pilothouse Pocket Cruiser[
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Where does the vent line go?
Vent in the side of the fly bridge. Very basic. Builder installed.
__________________
Advertisement

Al is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2015, 04:21 PM   #122
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al View Post
Vent in the side of the fly bridge. Very basic. Builder installed.
Well....according to our currently commenting surveyor...that really isn't compliant because the vent isn't below the gunnels....

I think that is reasonable as long as the vent isn't over a door or window...but the wizards at ABYC seem to think it isn't SAFE enough....
__________________

psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2015, 08:50 PM   #123
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
the fact that insurance companies will accept the opinion of almost anyone who is "certified" (SAMS, NAMS etc.) doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot and does nothing to justify the title of "marine surveyor"
RT, we still don't disagree, If you are familiar with my posts over the years (and I am sure you are) you will recall that I have blamed the underwriters on many occasions for the sad state of affairs of the surveying business. The underwriters could put the fly by night surveyors out of business overnight if they so chose by simply refusing to accept shoddy work.

Unfortunately I can't do anything about that and just go about my business doing as honest a job as I know how and trying my best to offer my somewhat informed opinion through my website.
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what I y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
As God is my witness, I thought turkey's could fly. Mr.C
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2015, 10:32 PM   #124
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
RT, we still don't disagree, If you are familiar with my posts over the years (and I am sure you are) you will recall that I have blamed the underwriters on many occasions for the sad state of affairs of the surveying business. The underwriters could put the fly by night surveyors out of business overnight if they so chose by simply refusing to accept shoddy work.

Unfortunately I can't do anything about that and just go about my business doing as honest a job as I know how and trying my best to offer my somewhat informed opinion through my website.

Wait a dang second. SAMS/NAMS have exclusive billing with my insuruance company. When I asked the insurer why that was so, they told me that in exchange for locking out non-SAMS/NAMS surveyors, these surveyor organizations promised to up the qualifications of it's membership, provide some standardization among it's membership, and provide the company with a standardized report format. So now SAMS/NAMS haven't kept their side of the bargain and you blame the insurance companies??? You can't do anything about it? What, the organization puts a gag on you? I dismissed a card carrying SAMS member who couldn't find the pointy end without his ACYB book, and had to get a waiver for a surveyor with a list of credentials as long as your arm because your organization sold the insurance companies a bill of goods...and that's the fault of the insurance company? I fault the carriers for enabling this mess, but that doesn't absolve SAMS/NAMS. It you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Thanks again for the quotes. Fascinating reading from one of the top few in Canada if I understand you correctly. I'll pass this along.
go-planing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2015, 10:55 PM   #125
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by semi-planing View Post
Wait a dang second. SAMS/NAMS have exclusive billing with my insuruance company. When I asked the insurer why that was so, they told me that in exchange for locking out non-SAMS/NAMS surveyors, these surveyor organizations promised to up the qualifications of it's membership, provide some standardization among it's membership, and provide the company with a standardized report format. So now SAMS/NAMS haven't kept their side of the bargain and you blame the insurance companies??? You can't do anything about it? What, the organization puts a gag on you? I dismissed a card carrying SAMS member who couldn't find the pointy end without his ACYB book, and had to get a waiver for a surveyor with a list of credentials as long as your arm because your organization sold the insurance companies a bill of goods...and that's the fault of the insurance company? I fault the carriers for enabling this mess, but that doesn't absolve SAMS/NAMS. It you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.


Thanks again for the quotes. Fascinating reading from one of the top few in Canada if I understand you correctly. I'll pass this along.
I don't claim to be among the top, I'm just a guy trying to do an honest job.
SAMS made no such promise to any of the hundreds of insurance companies and if you think a lowly surveyor living on a boat in Mississauga, Ontario can influence hundreds of insurance companies and their billions of dollars ...... well I just don't know what to say to that.
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what I y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
As God is my witness, I thought turkey's could fly. Mr.C
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2015, 11:28 PM   #126
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
I don't claim to be among the top, I'm just a guy trying to do an honest job.
SAMS made no such promise to any of the hundreds of insurance companies and if you think a lowly surveyor living on a boat in Mississauga, Ontario can influence hundreds of insurance companies and their billions of dollars ...... well I just don't know what to say to that.
Sorry sir, but that is exactly what my insurance company told me when I hired a non-SAMS/NAMS surveyor. SAMS gets exclusive access in exchange for providing a qualified, well managed surveyor community. Of course you've failed. I was suggesting you try to do your part to fix your own organization, not the insurance companies...the membership qualifications problem is not theirs...it's yours. Sure sounded like you were counting yourself as one of that top tier. In any case, you're absolutely sure you're not part of the problem...
go-planing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2015, 11:57 PM   #127
Al
Guru
 
Al's Avatar
 
City: ketchikan, Alaska
Country: usa
Vessel Name: 'SLO'~BELLE
Vessel Model: 1978 Marben-27' Flybridge Trawler Pilothouse Pocket Cruiser[
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Well....according to our currently commenting surveyor...that really isn't compliant because the vent isn't below the gunnels....

I think that is reasonable as long as the vent isn't over a door or window...but the wizards at ABYC seem to think it isn't SAFE enough....
I gather from the comments that insurance and surveyors count more than common sense. If the damn tanks are on the fly bridge, how will having a vent below the cabin roof line be any better than a vent at near the top of the house exiting out the side of the fly bridge wing or what ever the proper name is for the shear side of the fly bridge.
Anyway, the boat was constructed in 78 and it hasn't shown signs of blowing up!! Or the occupants being 'Gassed'. Lucky I guess according.

In a nut shell, I would given knowing these fellows who are harping on ABYC, a wide berth. They don't seem someone sharing a glass of sweet wine with for fear it would turn sour. Some one who has a lawyer, insurance adjuster and incident surveyor on speed dial.
Al is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2015, 06:33 AM   #128
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by semi-planing View Post
Sorry sir, but that is exactly what my insurance company told me when I hired a non-SAMS/NAMS surveyor. SAMS gets exclusive access in exchange for providing a qualified, well managed surveyor community. Of course you've failed. I was suggesting you try to do your part to fix your own organization, not the insurance companies...the membership qualifications problem is not theirs...it's yours. Sure sounded like you were counting yourself as one of that top tier. In any case, you're absolutely sure you're not part of the problem...
Your insurance company can tell you whatever they like, they don't speak for me. If you don't like what they tell you or how they do business the answer is simple ..... change to a company that does. The market speaks louder than than a few hundred SAMS surveyors.
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what I y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
As God is my witness, I thought turkey's could fly. Mr.C
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2015, 07:05 AM   #129
Senior Member
 
catalinajack's Avatar
 
City: Edgewater, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff F View Post

Boatpoker, I've read and appreciated the stuff on your web site. It's pretty clear that you take the issues around safety on board seriously, and I think that this kind of advocacy helps us all in the long run. Thanks for your efforts and contribution.

That said, I appreciate some of the points that semi-planing brings up. As I understand things meeting ABYC standards is not required for new boats that are not used for commercial purposes, and certainly the standards have evolved since many of the boats out there were sold new.

So when you point out in your written survey that the install doesn't meet current ABYC standards what is the response from the owner's insurance company? I understand that this is a big grey area, but I'm concerned that this "non-compliance" is in reference to a set of standards that may not apply to the boat and its intended use. I think that's the heart of semi-planing's point.

Sorry to blather on, but I recently was essentially forced by my home insurance underwriter to have extensive electrical work done on my 110 year old home to the tune of > 20k. I was dropped into one of those grey areas after a home inspection. Nothing had changed for the worse during my 20 years of ownership, but this particular inspector felt that the outdated wiring was an issue, even though the local electrical authority (and the underwriter, before being provoked by the report) didn't. Is my home safer now? Sure. But I knew the risks when I moved in, judged them to be small, and would have liked to have done the work when it suited me.

So while I would certainly appreciate a surveyor pointing out how I could make my old boat safer, I would hate to see a case where expensive and/or extensive remedial work to meet current standards were forced upon me by my insurance company, particularly when new boats aren't always compliant, as you point out on your web site. Sometimes the insurance folks aren't experienced enough to read between the lines. So I do kind of question calling these things out in the written report.
Jeff, I bet you had knob and tube wiring as do lilterally hundreds of thousands of homes in the US. From Wikipedia : "Knob-and-tube wiring (sometimes abbreviated K&T) was an early standardized method of electrical wiring in buildings, in common use in North America from about 1880 to the 1930s.[1][2] It consisted of single-insulated copper conductors run within wall or ceiling cavities, passing through joist and stud drill-holes via protective porcelain insulating tubes, and supported along their length on nailed-down porcelain knob insulators. Where conductors entered a wiring device such as a lamp or switch, or were pulled into a wall, they were protected by flexible cloth insulating sleeving called loom. The first insulation was asphalt-saturated cotton cloth, then rubber became common. Wire splices in such installations were twisted together for good mechanical strength, then soldered and wrapped with rubber insulating tape and friction tape (asphalt saturated cloth), or made inside metal junction boxes. Knob and tube wiring was eventually displaced from interior wiring systems because of the high cost of installation compared with use of power cables, which combined both power conductors of a circuit in one run (and which later included grounding conductors). At present, new knob and tube installations are permitted in the US only in a few very specific situations listed in the National Electrical Code, such as certain industrial and agricultural environments."

Electrical codes (codes, not RECOMMENDATIONS for new builds) are continually being updated. If homeowners were required to rip out wiring that met code when installed, then hundreds of thousands of homeowners would be saddled with huge retrofit bills. Jeff, assuming you had knob and tube wiring, the insurance inspector may have required a wiring update out of profound ignorance. The electrical code is an apt analogy to ABYC recommendations for new builds. Merely because something on a boat does not meet current ABYC recommendations is NOT, per se, a valid reason for a surveyor to "fail" inspection. However, the recommendations are good GUIDELINES for identifying potentially unsafe issues. But to cite ABYC recommendations as "absolutes" is just wrong. It seems to me that much of this surveyor angst is just CYA for a potential lawsuit.

To the readers of this post I urge you to Google knob and tube wiring for pictures of what it is. It will frighten many just looking at how the wiring was done. But, keep in mind the many, many old homes that were wired this way. And, yes, occasionally some burn down but almost always (opinion) the cause is an overloaded circuit because of human ignorance or stupidity, not because of inherently bad interior wiring.
catalinajack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2015, 07:19 AM   #130
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by catalinajack View Post
But to cite ABYC recommendations as "absolutes" is just wrong.

I've been in this business for a long time and have never told anyone that ABYC Standards were absolute or mandatory. Neither have I known another surveyor who made such a claim and I know hundreds of them.

The statements below are cut and pasted from my own survey reports of which I have samples on my website.


MANDATORY STANDARDS USED
Canada Shipping Act (CSA2001)
All regulations under the Act including “Small Vessel Regulations, "Construction Standards for Small Vessels" – TP1332E and "International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972 with Canadian Modifications" are mandatory.

Transport Canada, TP1332E, Construction Standards For Small Vessels
American Boat and Yacht Council® AC and DC Systems on Boats, E-11 and Storage Batteries, E-10 are a requirement of TP1332E.

Any other provision in the American Boat and Yacht Council® Standards referred to in TP1332E that is expressed as a recommendation shall be read as a requirement unless it is incompatible with the vessel’s construction.

TP1332E requires that this vessel be fitted with a number of Safety, Caution and Compliance labels. These labeling requirements can be found at Marine Safety - Transport Canada

US Code of Federal Regulations
For vessels to be USCG Documented, State Registered or exported to the USA, United States Code of Federal Regulations Title 33 and 46 requirements will be applied.

VOLUNTARY STANDARDS USED
American Boat and Yacht Council® – ABYC® "Standards and Technical Information Reports for Small Craft" are generally voluntary with many standards incorporated into TP1332E

National Fire Protection Association - NFPA302 "Fire Protection Standard for Pleasure and Commercial Motor Craft" are generally voluntary with some of its standards mandated by TP1332E.

COMMENTS
Comments based on a specific authority are cited as such. Other comments are based on the opinion of the surveyor as being of "good marine practice". Standards used are the latest editions and may not have been in place when this vessel was built.
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what I y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
As God is my witness, I thought turkey's could fly. Mr.C
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2015, 07:36 AM   #131
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,011
Not withstanding my above post ........ Transport Canada announced earlier this year .....

In February 2011, President Obama and Prime Minister Harper launched the Canada / United States Regulatory Cooperartion Council" (RCC) ". What does this mean for boating ? Well it looks like there is (finally) a move afoot to discontinue our Small Vessel Construction Standards and have ABYC Standards take it's place. This is part of a world wide attempt to standardize all requirements (that may take a while). Transport Canada reports that either ABYC or TP1332E will be acceptable standards in July of 2015 with the complete demise of TP1332E to follow at some point.

So all ABYC Standards will be mandatory in Canada in the near future.... a little bit of government doublespeak in there but apparently this is due to another conspiracy between SAMS and ABYC .
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what I y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
As God is my witness, I thought turkey's could fly. Mr.C
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2015, 07:40 AM   #132
Senior Member
 
catalinajack's Avatar
 
City: Edgewater, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 353
[QUOTE="boatpoker;398307"]

"I've been in this business for a long time and have never told anyone that ABYC Standards were absolute or mandatory. Neither have I known another surveyor who made such a claim and I know hundreds of them."

Never said you did. Just made the statement that "absolutes" are wrong. I think that most folks here would agree that some surveyors use the ABYC recommendations as a "crutch". And, yes, some do say "see here, it says right here, you are not in compliance". You don't. Good on you. You know hundreds of surveyors? So what. Have you read all of their surveys? Look, some surveyors hurt us with thier lousy, ignorant surveys. The problem for boat owners is that we CANNOT rely on the fact that a particular surveyor is a member of a professional orgnization. And isn't that just the point that is being made by others here? And why are you being so darn defensive about all this? You are a good surveyor. Ackowledged, by assumption. You are among the few and far between. Own it.
catalinajack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2015, 07:50 AM   #133
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,011
[QUOTE=catalinajack;398313]
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post

"I've been in this business for a long time and have never told anyone that ABYC Standards were absolute or mandatory. Neither have I known another surveyor who made such a claim and I know hundreds of them."

Never said you did. Just made the statement that "absolutes" are wrong. I think that most folks here would agree that some surveyors use the ABYC recommendations as a "crutch". And, yes, some do say "see here, it says right here, you are not in compliance". You don't. Good on you. You know hundreds of surveyors? So what. Have you read all of their surveys? Look, some surveyors hurt us with thier lousy, ignorant surveys. The problem for boat owners is that we CANNOT rely on the fact that a particular surveyor is a member of a professional orgnization. And isn't that just the point that is being made by others here? And why are you being so darn defensive about all this? You are a good surveyor. Ackowledged, by assumption. You are among the few and far between. Own it.

No, I have not read all their surveys and never said I did (although I've read a couple of thousand and have several hundred of others reports in my files). As stated on my website a "credential" of any kind does not ensure a good survey. Like any other endeavour the buyer must perform due diligence before hiring anyone. If you hire a lousy plumber or lousy surveyor, you have to own that.
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what I y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
As God is my witness, I thought turkey's could fly. Mr.C
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2015, 07:53 AM   #134
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,856
The big question will be....what requirements will be for ALL boats and what will be the requirements for new builds?

My example would be...in cars...after a bit, seat belts were required for all cars new and old....but energy absorbing bumpers were never required to be retrofitted on older cars.

The big deal with many is not whether ABYC standards are good or bad....just how they are applied to older vessels and who is the "authority" who says it is something as a seat belt....or just something that's nice like a energy absorbing bumper.

With propane lockers.....I would agree that having a tank mounted or stored inside certainly meets my threshold for being unsafe...but venting that HAS to be gunnel or below on a boat without a cockpit or area that can collect fumes is where I think retrofitting is over the top unless statistically an otherwise compliant installs have been the cause of a high percentage of accidents.

This is the kind of situation where my personal rub with the whole circular mess gets me on step.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2015, 08:36 AM   #135
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
The big question will be....what requirements will be for ALL boats and what will be the requirements for new builds?

The big deal with many is not whether ABYC standards are good or bad....just how they are applied to older vessels and who is the "authority" .

This is the kind of situation where my personal rub with the whole circular mess gets me on step.

The image below is cut/paste from Transport Canada Standards and they clearly are the authority in Canada. As I said I have never (other than this forum) heard of a surveyor saying ABYC was mandatory and if he did, he's an idiot.

I think TP1332 and the CFR's are absolute minimums and often miss the mark. The photos I posted earlier of the insane propane installations are completely legal in Canada and the US. But while I still note the ABYC standards for propane as voluntary in my reports, I feel I must point out that a 20.lb. propane tank stored in the bilge of a sailboat or a side loading propane locker that opens over a diesel(non-ignition proof) engine compartment is dangerous and this must be pointed out to the insurer and the owner as such. I have gone to great length on my website to show people exactly what to expect if they hire me. Some choose not to hire me, some do. It's their choice.

Do I have some CYA stuff in my reports, of course I do as any responsible business person would. Remember your society is the one that gave a woman $5,000,000 for spilling hot McDonalds coffee on herself.
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what I y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
As God is my witness, I thought turkey's could fly. Mr.C
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2015, 08:43 AM   #136
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,011
Sorry, forgot to post the image from TP1332. this is a fairly new provision (2010, I think) up until that time there was no suggestion of "grandfathering".
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	aaaaaaaaaa.jpg
Views:	30
Size:	57.4 KB
ID:	47633  
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what I y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
As God is my witness, I thought turkey's could fly. Mr.C
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2015, 09:11 AM   #137
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
Remember your society is the one that gave a woman $5,000,000 for spilling hot McDonalds coffee on herself.
I glad you're better with boat surveying than your are with story facts.

Jury award was for $2.86 million which was reduced by the trial judge to $640,000, which was then further reduced to a non disclosed amount prior to an appeal decision.

From Wikipedia Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants.

Liebeck (the burn victim) was taken to the hospital, where it was determined that she had suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent. She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. During this period, Liebeck lost 20 pounds (9 kg, nearly 20% of her body weight), reducing her to 83 pounds (38 kg). After the hospital stay, Liebeck needed care for 3 weeks, provided by her daughter. Liebeck suffered permanent disfigurement after the incident and was partially disabled for two years.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2015, 09:16 AM   #138
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
I glad you're better with boat surveying than your are with story facts.

Jury award was for $2.86 million which was reduced by the trial judge to $640,000, which was then further reduced to a non disclosed amount prior to an appeal decision.

From Wikipedia Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants.

Liebeck (the burn victim) was taken to the hospital, where it was determined that she had suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent. She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. During this period, Liebeck lost 20 pounds (9 kg, nearly 20% of her body weight), reducing her to 83 pounds (38 kg). After the hospital stay, Liebeck needed care for 3 weeks, provided by her daughter. Liebeck suffered permanent disfigurement after the incident and was partially disabled for two years.

Ted
Numbers aside, my point stands. order hot coffee (she didn't order cold coffee did she ? ), spill it on yourself and blame McDonald, collect money. Accept no responsibilty for your own actions. ..... omit due diligence, hire a lousy surveyor then rant.
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what I y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
As God is my witness, I thought turkey's could fly. Mr.C
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2015, 09:37 AM   #139
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
Numbers aside, my point stands. order hot coffee (she didn't order cold coffee did she ? ), spill it on yourself and blame McDonald, collect money. Accept no responsibilty for your own actions. ..... omit due diligence, hire a lousy surveyor then rant.
She order hot coffee, not coffee that would cause injury if she drank it when served. The part of the suit that was lost in the settlement hype was that a restaurant has an obligation not to serve you an item that is hazardous to consume at the time it was served, or at the very least warn you.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2015, 09:43 AM   #140
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al View Post
.......... Anyway, the boat was constructed in 78 and it hasn't shown signs of blowing up!! Or the occupants being 'Gassed'. Lucky I guess according. ............
What you're forgetting is that the ones who were blown up or gassed aren't around to tell about it.

It's similar to the seatbelt situation mentioned earlier. I drove for years before seatbelts were commonly installed in cars. I was never killed or injured in an accident so based on my personal experience, seat belts are a waste of money and time, right?

I never drive or ride in a car without wearing my seat belt. Common sense tells me I'm safer if I do.

The same common sense tells me to make whatever changes I can to my boat systems to keep me as safe as possible.
__________________

rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012