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Old 12-20-2015, 05:26 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by semi-planing View Post
I called the SAMS number and got hooked up with a surveyor at the national meeting. .
You call the SAMS office with no one there because the office staff is attending to several hundred surveyors at a conference center somewhere and the janitor puts you through to the conference center where a hotel employee takes it upon themselves to interrupt a business meeting of several hundred people, one of whom leaves this once a year meeting to answer your very important query about the efficacy of your propane system .... ok. you win, I got it now.
(or was it the ABYC annual meeting ?).
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Old 12-20-2015, 05:34 PM   #62
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Doesn't sound like it takes much to qualify to be a "SAMS surveyor".

"Accredited Marine Surveyor®
1. Candidates must be currently practicing marine surveyors with at least five (5) years surveying experience, accumulated within the past ten (10) years, in the field of expertise which accreditation is desired. Credit of up to three (3) years of the five (5) years required may be granted for related marine experience. Acceptability of related marine experience shall be determined by the membership committee and/or Board of Directors.

2. Applicants must affirm that they will abide by the By-Laws Code of Ethics, Standards, official decisions and amendments to such of the Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors (SAMS®).

3. Candidates must complete an application form, supply a complete resume and submit for review a number of surveys as may be required by the Membership Committee.

4. Candidates must successfully complete a written exam on their selected field of accreditation as prescribed by the Testing Committee and conducted by that Committee or their designated representative. Cost related to administration of said examination shall be born by the candidates. Examinations will be reviewed by the Testing Committee and submitted to the Membership Committee."

5. Applicants must agree to participate in and meet all requirements of the Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors' (SAMS®) program of continuing education as established by the Education Committee and/or Board of Directors."
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Old 12-20-2015, 05:56 PM   #63
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Semi-planing, your true colours are showing.

and once again i ask. show me my "admission". And again I say like all your other posts, you can't back them up.
Standardization should be the primary objective of an umbrella organization such as SAMS, that field a cadre of technical specialists. Without standardization, credibility and fairness go down the drain. In post #47 you scoffed at the concept of standardized interpretation and application of safety criteria by surveyors. SAMS isn't making it happen, and that's OK with you.
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Old 12-20-2015, 06:03 PM   #64
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Standardization should be the primary objective of an umbrella organization such as SAMS, that field a cadre of technical specialists. Without standardization, credibility and fairness go down the drain. In post #47 you scoffed at the concept of standardized interpretation and application of safety criteria by surveyors. SAMS isn't making it happen, and that's OK with you.

So everyone must do things your way or it's no good.
Didn't anyone ever teach you to quit digging
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Old 12-20-2015, 06:28 PM   #65
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So everyone must do things your way or it's no good.
Didn't anyone ever teach you to quit digging
The facts speak for themselves...and I'm not makin' this shyt up. If you want to do your parent organization a favor, put "standardization" on the agenda. And the first item on the standardization list is that members should NOT be using ABYC as the bible or as a crutch in place of common sense or experience during surveys. And when I call SAMS with a complaint about a surveyor, I expect some feed back about what was done to resolve the issue. I'm done.
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Old 12-20-2015, 06:48 PM   #66
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I'm done.
Promise ?
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Old 12-20-2015, 06:51 PM   #67
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I had read of some experiences with surveyors in regard to propane systems here on T-F. He came to the boat and the first thing I asked him is what he thought of the installed propane system. He pulled out his freakin' ABYC book and showed me the "applicable" paragraphs. I pointed out that ABYC is for new construction and this was an old boat. He began to argue that ABYC is a requirement, and said not to worry as he had a friend who could do an installation of an aftermarket system for minimal cost. That got my attention and I told him I wanted to call SAMS. He got very nervous. After speaking to the SAMS person I mentioned above, I told him to get the hell off my boat and not to come back.
I'm very surprised he didn't charge you, at least for travel time. You wasted his day.

I'm also surprised that if you feel you know that much about boats and their systems, why you bothered to hire someone else to survey the boat.
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Old 12-20-2015, 10:02 PM   #68
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I would just suggest putting something under the bottom of the tank to raise it up off the floor so it doesn't leave a rust ring on the floor.

Or just changing the bottle out to a fiberglass one that can't rust.
A plastic planter pot saucer glued to the floor works for my ( portable) bbq bottle. A good fit with the bottle adds stability, it is lashed in place too. It is stored with the 2 "house" plumbed bottles secured in the IG OEM bottle housing, under a vented FB seat.
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Old 12-20-2015, 10:34 PM   #69
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In reference to the fiberglass propane tanks, its my understanding (my brother in law owns a propane bidness) that they are now illegal. If you take them in to get them refilled they will be confiscated. I was told that Alcoa (major maker of aluminum propane tanks) put them out of business with guberment lobbying. Apparently citing safety aspects. I have no actuall knowledge of this, just scuttle butt around the propane industry. I own 2 of them and absolutely love them, no rust, corrosion, etc. and its easy to see how much fuel is in there. I refill mine from my home tank with a wet line.
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Old 12-20-2015, 10:40 PM   #70
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In reference to the fiberglass propane tanks, its my understanding (my brother in law owns a propane bidness) that they are now illegal. If you take them in to get them refilled they will be confiscated. I was told that Alcoa (major maker of aluminum propane tanks) put them out of business with guberment lobbying. Apparently citing safety aspects. I have no actuall knowledge of this, just scuttle butt around the propane industry. I own 2 of them and absolutely love them, no rust, corrosion, etc. and its easy to see how much fuel is in there. I refill mine from my home tank with a wet line.
They are not illegal but DOT has issued a recall on one manufacturer whom I believe has been driven into bankruptcy. Suggest you check the link and make sure you don't have these.
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Old 12-20-2015, 10:57 PM   #71
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I dont want to know. Thats probably what I have I'll check anyway,thanks.
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Old 12-21-2015, 07:21 AM   #72
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Hey Boatpoker...what is your take of an open air install? Similar to what you see on the aft rail of many sailboats.


What about on the back of a flybridge under a bottle cover?


The ABYC guidelines I have say 20 inches for the locker or regulater venting from any hull opening.


So if on a flybridge, and open air, and more than 20 inches from any windows...and maybe common sense dictates not overhead a deep well cockpit...what are your thoughts?
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Old 12-21-2015, 07:57 AM   #73
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LP Tank recall

One manufacturer, the Lite Cylinder Company, had a handful of failures. Ultimately DOT did shut them down for violation of manufacturing guidelines and plant practices. The tanks were recalled (if you have one that has this manufacturer's name you should remove it from service and take it to a propane re-filler for disposal), there is no recourse for replacement since Lite filed for bankruptcy.

I've written about this episode a number of times and thus am familiar with the details. No other FRP LP tanks are affected. The other major small size FRP tank manufacturer, Regasco (they changed their name to Viking a few years ago), has had no major issues or failures, and has full DOT and TC approval, these tanks can/should be refilled by any propane refilling station without concern.

From Regasco's website...

Viking Cylinders is the new North American brand for Hexagon Ragasco’s composite LPG cylinder, a product that has been in production since 2000. With more than 10 million cylinders sold around the world...Viking Cylinders previously sold in North America under the Ragasco name.

It's become more common to see these being supplied with new boats, they are lighter than metallic tanks, don't corrode, don't scratch surfaces, and the liquid within can be seen, for the most part, to check the level. Contrary to popular belief they are actually less likely to explode in a fire as they will not BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion) like metallic tanks, instead as the resin burns away gas slowly passes through the fiberglass fabric and burns off in a controlled manner. They have a 5 year requalification period, and, perhaps the only downside of these tanks, they have a 15 year service life.

The FRP tanks are slightly taller than equivalent metallic tanks, and as such they are not always retrofittable, however, some new boat builders seem to be aware of this and are making lockers (some ABYC compliant, others not so) large enough to accept them.
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Old 12-21-2015, 08:38 AM   #74
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Hey Boatpoker...what is your take of an open air install? Similar to what you see on the aft rail of many sailboats.


What about on the back of a flybridge under a bottle cover?


The ABYC guidelines I have say 20 inches for the locker or regulater venting from any hull opening.


So if on a flybridge, and open air, and more than 20 inches from any windows...and maybe common sense dictates not overhead a deep well cockpit...what are your thoughts?
I personally would not be comfortable with a tank within the perimeter of the hull that is not in an approved type locker with proper overboard drainage but don't see an issue with tanks securely mounted outboard on the stern rail.

Note that the standards say "hull opening", not "superstructure opening". the drain exit should be on the hull sides below the sheer.
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Old 12-21-2015, 09:09 AM   #75
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I see that it says hull opening...but no "size" of opening is specified.....so hull or superstructure....not sure it how thoroughly it was considered.

The possibility of a breeze blowing it back over the gunwale could be the same breeze that would possibly dissappate it leaking from the bridge.

Probabilities cut both ways.

Would you can side it as "unsafe" on a survey for insurance reasons?
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Old 12-21-2015, 10:06 AM   #76
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My "in use" tank is in a regular, factory propane locker which I believe meets all the safety requirements. My spare tank is on the flybridge, under the helm in the open air. It was like this when I bought the boat. I had a professional survey from a highly respected surveyor and he did not mention anything about this arrangement.


My thought is that any propane leakage would probably dissipate in the open air before it could get inside the boat. There is, of course, a propane detector in the galley.


Thoughts?
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Old 12-21-2015, 10:28 AM   #77
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I see that it says hull opening...but no "size" of opening is specified.....so hull or superstructure....not sure it how thoroughly it was considered.

The possibility of a breeze blowing it back over the gunwale could be the same breeze that would possibly dissappate it leaking from the bridge.

Probabilities cut both ways.

Would you can side it as "unsafe" on a survey for insurance reasons?
Opening size - I take that as a port vent louver or some kind of opening to the interior, not anything like a throughull.

Without a breeze the heavier propane could drift down from the flying bridge into a window.

I would be reluctant to use the word "unsafe" but I would certainly note it as non-compliant.
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Old 12-21-2015, 10:31 AM   #78
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My "in use" tank is in a regular, factory propane locker which I believe meets all the safety requirements. My spare tank is on the flybridge, under the helm in the open air. It was like this when I bought the boat. I had a professional survey from a highly respected surveyor and he did not mention anything about this arrangement.
My thought is that any propane leakage would probably dissipate in the open air before it could get inside the boat. There is, of course, a propane detector in the galley.


Thoughts?
Any propane tank should be stored in an ABYC compliant locker in my opinion.
The underside of your helm has electrical stuff that is no ignition protected. LPG may be heavier than air but it would not take much of a breeze to lift it up into your gauges or what ever other electrical stuff under there. I'd write it up as non-compliant.
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Old 12-21-2015, 01:13 PM   #79
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Any propane tank should be stored in an ABYC compliant locker in my opinion.
The underside of your helm has electrical stuff that is no ignition protected. LPG may be heavier than air but it would not take much of a breeze to lift it up into your gauges or what ever other electrical stuff under there. I'd write it up as non-compliant.
Your opinions are biased by your stated business partnership with ABYC.
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Old 12-21-2015, 01:33 PM   #80
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Your opinions are biased by your stated business partnership with ABYC.
You are hilarious
Here you go again making things up. Please show me the partnership agreement between me and ABYC or indeed my statement that I was a partner..
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