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Old 12-20-2015, 02:13 PM   #41
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Steel and plastic/fiberglass are not the only two choices. The propane locker on our cabin cruiser is the port flying bridge seat base. We replaced the single BBQ-style steel (and rusting) bottle that came with the boat with a pair of Worthington horizontal marine tanks made of aluminum. Not the least expensive option on the planet but well worth the cost in our opinions. We also have a pair of 1.5 gallon Worthington vertical aluminum tanks in rail mounts for the barbeque.
My solution to rusting propane tanks is pretty simple - I exchange them rather than refilling them. I have no worries about rust or inspection.
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Old 12-20-2015, 02:15 PM   #42
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First of all as a SAMS AMS I can assure you that SAMS does not have a "technical staff" in fact there are only two full time admin office staff who could not, will not provide opinions on such a matter although they might be able to coordinate your mailing list and publish a newsletter for you. I don't know who you called (apparently neither do you) but it was not SAMS.

and...... yes we are in the business of promoting safety.
I know precisely who I called. SAMS happened to be having their annual business/policy meeting when I called their office and I was forwarded to a surveyor who was at that meeting. In any case, if SAMS does not have a standing oversight staff, then it is no wonder that standardization is so abysmal.

If you're using ABYC guidelines for new boats to push unnecessary upgrades on an old boat community, you are out of line.
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Old 12-20-2015, 02:21 PM   #43
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" for legal reasons they would absolutely not tell you it was safe."

Nobody ever wants to bring the potential lawsuit upon themselves. In this litigious world, no organization that makes the rules, no organization that certifies boaters as complying with those rules, is going to certify your installation as "safe" unless there is perfect compliance with those rules.
Our insurance Co.s don't all require perfect compliance with those rules. Many of the surveyors that are approved by our insurers will allow a propane installation that is "safe" according to what those surveyors, in their experience, believe to be "safe" without having to impose expensive modifications upon the boat owners.

I my role as a "safety inspector" at a yacht club, I am often called upon to assess the propane installation of the boat I am inspecting. My own boat, for example, has passed the scrutiny of surveyors 4 times and Yacht Club "safety inspectors" 20 times while I have owned her. While I know that my installation would not meet ABYC standards, I am satisfied with the installation, as it meets a standard that has stood the test of time, that many, if not most, other boats of a similar age and style have met over the years. Those standards include: no possibility of any leak of propane moving from the propane locker to the inside of the boat; overboard discharge of any leakage from within the propane locker, from the bottom of that locker; one continuous line from within the locker to the consuming appliance, a solenoid controlling the shutoff at the bottle; a light near the appliance to indicate solenoid status.
In addition, a record is kept to include whether the boat has a sniffer, and its installation is encouraged.
Any installation that has the discharge from the bottom of the locker above any opening into the interior is strictly NOT approved, (this includes installations on the upper deck that would allow a slight breeze to move leaking propane over the deck to then flow down to an open door or window).

Standards for "safety inspectors" and insurance surveyors may be tightened up as fewer old boats that were not equipped with ABYC compliant propane installations continue to survive, and eventually you won't get away with anything less. As that is not the situation yet, the double standard, one for new builds, one for older boats, will continue.
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Old 12-20-2015, 02:29 PM   #44
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Yes, safety features cost money, but I do not want to take my family or friends on a potentially questionable boat.
Who decides what is potentially questionable? A low experience, poorly standardized SAMS inspector? To what criteria? Where does it stop? What about the abysmal (and hidden) wiring in many of the old Taiwan boats? Bet you've sold plenty of them.
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Old 12-20-2015, 02:40 PM   #45
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My solution to rusting propane tanks is pretty simple - I exchange them rather than refilling them. I have no worries about rust or inspection.
That works, too. Our reason for replacing the BBQ tank was not so much because there was some surface rust on it but because it had been fitted with home-made feet and was mounted horizontally which was the only way it would fit in the locker. These tanks are not designed to be used horizontally and while perhaps not dangerous (although we had people with experience in this field tell us it is) it results in an uneven feed of propane to the stove/oven. Perhaps that's the dangerous part. The stove would sputter and "spit" rather frequently with this tank arrangement. Going to proper horizontal bottles cured that immediately.
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Old 12-20-2015, 02:59 PM   #46
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I know precisely who I called. SAMS happened to be having their annual business/policy meeting when I called their office and I was forwarded to a surveyor who was at that meeting. In any case, if SAMS does not have a standing oversight staff, then it is no wonder that standardization is so abysmal.
So first it was ABYC, Then it was SAMS technical department and now it is a SAMS general business meeting ..... you called them at a business meeting and after flying in to Jacksonville from all over the country to conduct the business aspectd of SAMS, a secretary called one of them out of that meeting to answer a general query ?????? Your credibility is waning.

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In any case, if SAMS does not have a standing oversight staff, then it is no wonder that standardization is so abysmal.
So even if you didn't call them they still should do things your way ?
Your credibility is now gone. You obviously know little about what SAMS or ABYC does nor how they function under their charters.
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Old 12-20-2015, 03:00 PM   #47
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standardized SAMS inspector?
You just make this stuff up ?
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Old 12-20-2015, 03:15 PM   #48
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GIGANTIC THREAD CREEP--- BoatPoker: When was your boat built? From your avatar photo it's a beautiful design. You can answer here or start a thread called Benford 38 if you wish. Thanks much.
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Old 12-20-2015, 03:25 PM   #49
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GIGANTIC THREAD CREEP--- BoatPoker: When was your boat built? From your avatar photo it's a beautiful design. You can answer here or start a thread called Benford 38 if you wish. Thanks much.
2002 but I don't get your point. Are we not still on LPG/standards ? I made no reference to my boat.
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Old 12-20-2015, 03:42 PM   #50
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2002 but I don't get your point. Are we not still on LPG/standards ? I made no reference to my boat.
I don't think that was meant as a loaded question. I think he just likes your boat.
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Old 12-20-2015, 03:42 PM   #51
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2002 but I don't get your point. Are we not still on LPG/standards ? I made no reference to my boat.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. My question has absolutely nothing to do with the LPG discussion. I have been impressed with the design of your boat since seeing it in your avatar. Since you are participating in this discussion I thought I'd take the opportunity ask you about the boat even though it's not a factor in this particular topic. It wants it's own thread but I thought I'd get your attention here since you're here already.
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Old 12-20-2015, 03:54 PM   #52
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No problem Marin. I have a major refit underway and will post a photomentuary on my website soon, I'll let you know.
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Old 12-20-2015, 03:54 PM   #53
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So first it was ABYC, Then it was SAMS technical department and now it is a SAMS general business meeting ..... you called them at a business meeting and after flying in to Jacksonville from all over the country to conduct the business aspectd of SAMS, a secretary called one of them out of that meeting to answer a general query ?????? Your credibility is waning.



So even if you didn't call them they still should do things your way ?
Your credibility is now gone. You obviously know little about what SAMS or ABYC does nor how they function under their charters.

Is using a typo to discredit me the best you can do? I mistakenly typed ABYC in my first post and you're still milking it. Yes, I did call the SAMS office, who connected me with an inspector at the national meeting. He said my system was the same as on his boat, which he thought was AOK. At that point I learned that SAMS is an unstandardized sham and fired my surveyor. The surveyor I hired in his place is also a respected Naval architect who refuses to be associated with SAMS/NAMS for the reasons I've stated. I actually related this whole experience (without the typo) in another thread several years ago. Go back and look.

SAMS is obviously every inspector for themselves....standardization stinks, as do initial and recurrent qualification requirements. The organization is simply a figure head with virtually no internal standardization among members, let alone government oversight.

What I get from your most immediate (related) post above is that you find the thought of standardization among inspectors to be ridiculous. That's very telling, damning, and totally consistent with my experience. The FAA has a designee system to help oversee application of regulations and standards. Qualification supervision and standardization of that large community of inspectors and engineers is a formal, full time job. The SAMS system is...not. Works for you it seems. Not even remotely customer focused or professional from where I sit.
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Old 12-20-2015, 04:01 PM   #54
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. Yes, I did call the SAMS office, who connected me with an inspector at the national meeting. He said my system was the same as on his boat, which he thought was AOK.
You First said you called ABYC then it became a SAMS tech service person, then it became a SAMS inspector during an annual meeting.

Unfortunately for you you will never find a SAMS surveyor in that office during the annual meeting because the annual meetings are held in different cities each year (Toronto, San Diego, London etc. and the office is closed during that period.

Again I don't know who you talked to but it wasn't SAMS or ABYC, a janitor perhaps ?.
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Old 12-20-2015, 04:28 PM   #55
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............... At that point I learned that SAMS is an unstandardized sham and fired my surveyor. ......
How does one "fire" a surveyor? I mean you hire him/her to survey the boat, they do it and you pay them. Are you saying you refused to pay after they did the work?
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Old 12-20-2015, 04:31 PM   #56
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You First said you called ABYC then it became a SAMS tech service person, then it became a SAMS inspector during an annual meeting.

Unfortunately for you you will never find a SAMS surveyor in that office during the annual meeting because the annual meetings are held in different cities each year (Toronto, San Diego, London etc. and the office is closed during that period.

Again I don't know who you talked to but it wasn't SAMS or ABYC, a janitor perhaps ?.
Still playing around with minutia... I spoke with a SAMS surveyor (I thought they were considered technical...but maybe not) at an annual meeting...think it was in Jacksonville. Been about five or six years ago. But no matter. The facts are the same. The organization collects dues, issues certificates, and very little else....by your own admission. They also partner with ABYC to sell "safety" for supposed issues that have no basis in the accident data base. Nice little...arrangement.
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Old 12-20-2015, 04:44 PM   #57
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How does one "fire" a surveyor? I mean you hire him/her to survey the boat, they do it and you pay them. Are you saying you refused to pay after they did the work?
I had read of some experiences with surveyors in regard to propane systems here on T-F. He came to the boat and the first thing I asked him is what he thought of the installed propane system. He pulled out his freakin' ABYC book and showed me the "applicable" paragraphs. I pointed out that ABYC is for new construction and this was an old boat. He began to argue that ABYC is a requirement, and said not to worry as he had a friend who could do an installation of an aftermarket system for minimal cost. That got my attention and I told him I wanted to call SAMS. He got very nervous. After speaking to the SAMS person I mentioned above, I told him to get the hell off my boat and not to come back.
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Old 12-20-2015, 04:58 PM   #58
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Still playing around with minutia... I spoke with a SAMS surveyor (I thought they were considered technical...but maybe not) at an annual meeting...think it was in Jacksonville.
You never called anyone at an annual meeting unless you already had their cell phone number so you must already know who you talked to. There have been no annual meetings at the Jacksonville office So how did you track down the hotel in another city, did you call the hotel and ask for someone from SAMS ? Your story is preposterous

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The organization collects dues, issues certificates, and very little else....by your own admission.
Please show me where I posted this admission ?

You sling a lot of insults and never answer directly any challenges to your fanciful stories.
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Old 12-20-2015, 05:14 PM   #59
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You never called anyone at an annual meeting unless you already had their cell phone number so you must already know who you talked to. There have been no annual meetings at the Jacksonville office So how did you track down the hotel in another city, did you call the hotel and ask for someone from SAMS ? Your story is preposterous



Please show me where I posted this admission ?

You sling a lot of insults and never answer directly any challenges to your fanciful stories.
I called the SAMS number and got hooked up with a surveyor at the national meeting. It was that simple, my friend. Maybe they had their phones forwarded to someone at the meeting. This incident occurred at least five years ago and I don't remember exactly who initially answered the phone or how I got connected with the surveyor. No vast conspiracy, in any case. Give it a rest.
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Old 12-20-2015, 05:17 PM   #60
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Semi-planing, your true colours are showing.

and once again i ask. show me my "admission". And again I say like all your other posts, you can't back them up.
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