Propane Locker

[boatpoker]

Again .... Safe Boat Propane Installations.

 

[oscar]

Or just changing the bottle out to a fiberglass one that can't rust.

Oh yeah. If I ever get a boat with propane again the bottles WILL be plastic. Trying to keep the rust off steel bottles is a never ending torture.

 

[go-planing]

To be clear, ABYC guidelines are design recommendations for new builds. They are absolutely not U.S. Coast Guard safety requirements for existing designs. The propane tank under the flybridge console on our boat has been surveyed three times without out issue. It has a raised dam around the perimeter of the horizontal tank (propane is heavier than air), and an overboard drain is at the bottom of the dammed area. The feed line into the cabin is sealed. The tank itself is open to the rest of the area under the flybridge console. I have a propane sniffer in the bilge.


I did have one surveyor who tried to tell me that it was "non-compliant" with ABYC. Before I fired him, I called SAMS and spoke with their technical staff. The person I spoke with said his own boat had exactly the same arrangement and he thought it was safe. When queried, my insurance company was fine with the original factory design.


Safe is a relative thing. It has an obvious cost. ABYC and the surveyor community often partner in safety symposiums. Aftermarket companies are partners in the safety business. You pay for all of this. In the aircraft world a 1950s Cessna is "minimum safe" per it's 1950's certification basis unless there is a safety record that demands a retroactive "fix" (an airworthiness directive (AD). If the recreational boating world had a safety problem with old propane systems, rest assured that the Coast Guard would have an associated retrofit requirement. The data do not support one. Rolling over to surveyors with their ABYC "requirements" sets a bad precedent. If a new propane system makes folks feel more safe, then that's a personal choice. But the safety history of a well maintained original factory system on these old boats does not support it. All government safety regulations must pass a cost benefits analysis. Sure, more is better...but be careful about being sold a bill of goods. "More" has a cost...to all of us.

 

[boatpoker]

our boat has been surveyed three times without out issue.

I did have one surveyor who tried to tell me that it was "non-compliant" with ABYC. Before I fired him, I called ABYC and spoke with their technical staff and he thought it was safe.

You fired the only one of your surveyors that knew what he was talking about.
As someone who has run a number of ABYC courses I find it hard to believe an ABYC tech advisor would tell you your system is compliant and for legal reasons they would absolutely not tell you it was safe.

Title 46 25.45-2 United Code of Federal Regulations Does require all vessels carrying passengers for hire to comply with ABYC A-1. Title 46 was written before propane was common on pleasure craft but we all know how slow government is.

 

[go-planing]

Firstly, I contacted SAMS, not ABYC (I made the correction to my original post). Regardless, the question is "safe" according to what....the latest and greatest recommendations for new boats? ABYC will keep on upping their level of "safety" because they're out of business if they don't. And rest assured they are a business. Surveyors are part of the safety business. Manufacturers of new propane lockers market their wares as part of the safety business. As long as the boat owner community buys into the charade, business is good.

I spent 25 years writing and approving FAA aircraft design safety standards. Your inference that the government is just slow in addressing a perceived safety issue is a red herring. Safety requirements are always more demanding for commercial operations. The record does not support retroactively requiring uprated systems and the considerable associated cost for recreational water craft. The surveyor in question was fired because he was bandying ABYC about as a requirement and he was completely out of line in doing so. My SAMS contact said as much. The individual should have been fired by SAMS. But individual membership dues to the organization (business) apparently trumps credibility and ethics. I can assure you that I would have fired an FAA designee that used a more demanding safety regulation that was issued after the original certification basis for an old aircraft.


By the way, thanks for making my point that ABYC and the surveyor community are in the business of marketing and selling safety.

 

[rwidman]

I would just suggest putting something under the bottom of the tank to raise it up off the floor so it doesn't leave a rust ring on the floor..

I was a bit surprised to find a plastic ring made for just such a purpose at Lowes for about $8. I bought me one. It stabilizes the tank as well but I'm sure most of us will secure the tank.

 

[yachtbrokerguy]

Thank you Steve DAntonio for posting that information, I hope to see more posts from you here.
Personally I kind of like the idea of ABYC and surveyors who sell safety. Not many organizations give it away for free and I like the fact that each time I take a boat ride on newer and newer boats that they have more safety features.
Yes, safety features cost money, but I do not want to take my family or friends on a potentially questionable boat.

 

[boatpoker]

Firstly, I contacted SAMS, not ABYC (I made the correction to my original post).

By the way, thanks for making my point that ABYC and the surveyor community are in the business of marketing and selling safety.

First of all as a SAMS AMS I can assure you that SAMS does not have a "technical staff" in fact there are only two full time admin office staff who could not, will not provide opinions on such a matter although they might be able to coordinate your mailing list and publish a newsletter for you. I don't know who you called (apparently neither do you) but it was not SAMS.

and...... yes we are in the business of promoting safety.

 

[rwidman]

Once we buy a boat, we are not bound by ABYC or any other safety standards.

That said, it would be foolish not to follow them as closely as possible. While the ABYC and USCG are concerned with everyone's safety, as boat owners and operators we should be concerned with our personal safety and the safety of friends and family who we invite onto our boats.

These safety organizations have the expertise and testing equipment to determine what is safe and what is not. As individuals, the vast majority of us do not have that expertise. Just because you have been doing something for years and never had a problem doesn't make it safe, it just makes you lucky.

 

[Marin]

Oh yeah. If I ever get a boat with propane again the bottles WILL be plastic. Trying to keep the rust off steel bottles is a never ending torture.

Steel and plastic/fiberglass are not the only two choices. The propane locker on our cabin cruiser is the port flying bridge seat base. We replaced the single BBQ-style steel (and rusting) bottle that came with the boat with a pair of Worthington horizontal marine tanks made of aluminum. Not the least expensive option on the planet but well worth the cost in our opinions. We also have a pair of 1.5 gallon Worthington vertical aluminum tanks in rail mounts for the barbeque.

 

[rwidman]

Steel and plastic/fiberglass are not the only two choices. The propane locker on our cabin cruiser is the port flying bridge seat base. We replaced the single BBQ-style steel (and rusting) bottle that came with the boat with a pair of Worthington horizontal marine tanks made of aluminum. Not the least expensive option on the planet but well worth the cost in our opinions. We also have a pair of 1.5 gallon Worthington vertical aluminum tanks in rail mounts for the barbeque.

My solution to rusting propane tanks is pretty simple - I exchange them rather than refilling them. I have no worries about rust or inspection.

 

[go-planing]

First of all as a SAMS AMS I can assure you that SAMS does not have a "technical staff" in fact there are only two full time admin office staff who could not, will not provide opinions on such a matter although they might be able to coordinate your mailing list and publish a newsletter for you. I don't know who you called (apparently neither do you) but it was not SAMS.

and...... yes we are in the business of promoting safety.

I know precisely who I called. SAMS happened to be having their annual business/policy meeting when I called their office and I was forwarded to a surveyor who was at that meeting. In any case, if SAMS does not have a standing oversight staff, then it is no wonder that standardization is so abysmal.

If you're using ABYC guidelines for new boats to push unnecessary upgrades on an old boat community, you are out of line.

 

[koliver]

" for legal reasons they would absolutely not tell you it was safe."

Nobody ever wants to bring the potential lawsuit upon themselves. In this litigious world, no organization that makes the rules, no organization that certifies boaters as complying with those rules, is going to certify your installation as "safe" unless there is perfect compliance with those rules.
Our insurance Co.s don't all require perfect compliance with those rules. Many of the surveyors that are approved by our insurers will allow a propane installation that is "safe" according to what those surveyors, in their experience, believe to be "safe" without having to impose expensive modifications upon the boat owners.

I my role as a "safety inspector" at a yacht club, I am often called upon to assess the propane installation of the boat I am inspecting. My own boat, for example, has passed the scrutiny of surveyors 4 times and Yacht Club "safety inspectors" 20 times while I have owned her. While I know that my installation would not meet ABYC standards, I am satisfied with the installation, as it meets a standard that has stood the test of time, that many, if not most, other boats of a similar age and style have met over the years. Those standards include: no possibility of any leak of propane moving from the propane locker to the inside of the boat; overboard discharge of any leakage from within the propane locker, from the bottom of that locker; one continuous line from within the locker to the consuming appliance, a solenoid controlling the shutoff at the bottle; a light near the appliance to indicate solenoid status.
In addition, a record is kept to include whether the boat has a sniffer, and its installation is encouraged.
Any installation that has the discharge from the bottom of the locker above any opening into the interior is strictly NOT approved, (this includes installations on the upper deck that would allow a slight breeze to move leaking propane over the deck to then flow down to an open door or window).

Standards for "safety inspectors" and insurance surveyors may be tightened up as fewer old boats that were not equipped with ABYC compliant propane installations continue to survive, and eventually you won't get away with anything less. As that is not the situation yet, the double standard, one for new builds, one for older boats, will continue.

 

[go-planing]

Yes, safety features cost money, but I do not want to take my family or friends on a potentially questionable boat.

Who decides what is potentially questionable? A low experience, poorly standardized SAMS inspector? To what criteria? Where does it stop? What about the abysmal (and hidden) wiring in many of the old Taiwan boats? Bet you've sold plenty of them.

 

[Marin]

My solution to rusting propane tanks is pretty simple - I exchange them rather than refilling them. I have no worries about rust or inspection.

That works, too. Our reason for replacing the BBQ tank was not so much because there was some surface rust on it but because it had been fitted with home-made feet and was mounted horizontally which was the only way it would fit in the locker. These tanks are not designed to be used horizontally and while perhaps not dangerous (although we had people with experience in this field tell us it is) it results in an uneven feed of propane to the stove/oven. Perhaps that's the dangerous part. The stove would sputter and "spit" rather frequently with this tank arrangement. Going to proper horizontal bottles cured that immediately.

 

[boatpoker]

I know precisely who I called. SAMS happened to be having their annual business/policy meeting when I called their office and I was forwarded to a surveyor who was at that meeting. In any case, if SAMS does not have a standing oversight staff, then it is no wonder that standardization is so abysmal.

So first it was ABYC, Then it was SAMS technical department and now it is a SAMS general business meeting ..... you called them at a business meeting and after flying in to Jacksonville from all over the country to conduct the business aspectd of SAMS, a secretary called one of them out of that meeting to answer a general query ?????? Your credibility is waning.

In any case, if SAMS does not have a standing oversight staff, then it is no wonder that standardization is so abysmal.

So even if you didn't call them they still should do things your way ?
Your credibility is now gone. You obviously know little about what SAMS or ABYC does nor how they function under their charters.

 

[boatpoker]

standardized SAMS inspector?

You just make this stuff up ?

 

[Marin]

GIGANTIC THREAD CREEP--- BoatPoker: When was your boat built? From your avatar photo it's a beautiful design. You can answer here or start a thread called Benford 38 if you wish. Thanks much.

 

[boatpoker]

GIGANTIC THREAD CREEP--- BoatPoker: When was your boat built? From your avatar photo it's a beautiful design. You can answer here or start a thread called Benford 38 if you wish. Thanks much.

2002 but I don't get your point. Are we not still on LPG/standards ? I made no reference to my boat.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

2002 but I don't get your point. Are we not still on LPG/standards ? I made no reference to my boat.

I don't think that was meant as a loaded question. I think he just likes your boat.

 

[Marin]

2002 but I don't get your point. Are we not still on LPG/standards ? I made no reference to my boat.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. My question has absolutely nothing to do with the LPG discussion. I have been impressed with the design of your boat since seeing it in your avatar. Since you are participating in this discussion I thought I'd take the opportunity ask you about the boat even though it's not a factor in this particular topic. It wants it's own thread but I thought I'd get your attention here since you're here already.

 

[boatpoker]

No problem Marin. I have a major refit underway and will post a photomentuary on my website soon, I'll let you know.

 

[go-planing]

So first it was ABYC, Then it was SAMS technical department and now it is a SAMS general business meeting ..... you called them at a business meeting and after flying in to Jacksonville from all over the country to conduct the business aspectd of SAMS, a secretary called one of them out of that meeting to answer a general query ?????? Your credibility is waning.



So even if you didn't call them they still should do things your way ?
Your credibility is now gone. You obviously know little about what SAMS or ABYC does nor how they function under their charters.

Is using a typo to discredit me the best you can do? I mistakenly typed ABYC in my first post and you're still milking it. Yes, I did call the SAMS office, who connected me with an inspector at the national meeting. He said my system was the same as on his boat, which he thought was AOK. At that point I learned that SAMS is an unstandardized sham and fired my surveyor. The surveyor I hired in his place is also a respected Naval architect who refuses to be associated with SAMS/NAMS for the reasons I've stated. I actually related this whole experience (without the typo) in another thread several years ago. Go back and look.

SAMS is obviously every inspector for themselves....standardization stinks, as do initial and recurrent qualification requirements. The organization is simply a figure head with virtually no internal standardization among members, let alone government oversight.

What I get from your most immediate (related) post above is that you find the thought of standardization among inspectors to be ridiculous. That's very telling, damning, and totally consistent with my experience. The FAA has a designee system to help oversee application of regulations and standards. Qualification supervision and standardization of that large community of inspectors and engineers is a formal, full time job. The SAMS system is...not. Works for you it seems. Not even remotely customer focused or professional from where I sit.

 

[boatpoker]

. Yes, I did call the SAMS office, who connected me with an inspector at the national meeting. He said my system was the same as on his boat, which he thought was AOK.

You First said you called ABYC then it became a SAMS tech service person, then it became a SAMS inspector during an annual meeting.

Unfortunately for you you will never find a SAMS surveyor in that office during the annual meeting because the annual meetings are held in different cities each year (Toronto, San Diego, London etc. and the office is closed during that period.

Again I don't know who you talked to but it wasn't SAMS or ABYC, a janitor perhaps ?.

 

[rwidman]

............... At that point I learned that SAMS is an unstandardized sham and fired my surveyor. ......

How does one "fire" a surveyor? I mean you hire him/her to survey the boat, they do it and you pay them. Are you saying you refused to pay after they did the work?

 

[go-planing]

You First said you called ABYC then it became a SAMS tech service person, then it became a SAMS inspector during an annual meeting.

Unfortunately for you you will never find a SAMS surveyor in that office during the annual meeting because the annual meetings are held in different cities each year (Toronto, San Diego, London etc. and the office is closed during that period.

Again I don't know who you talked to but it wasn't SAMS or ABYC, a janitor perhaps ?.

Still playing around with minutia... I spoke with a SAMS surveyor (I thought they were considered technical...but maybe not) at an annual meeting...think it was in Jacksonville. Been about five or six years ago. But no matter. The facts are the same. The organization collects dues, issues certificates, and very little else....by your own admission. They also partner with ABYC to sell "safety" for supposed issues that have no basis in the accident data base. Nice little...arrangement.

 

[go-planing]

How does one "fire" a surveyor? I mean you hire him/her to survey the boat, they do it and you pay them. Are you saying you refused to pay after they did the work?

I had read of some experiences with surveyors in regard to propane systems here on T-F. He came to the boat and the first thing I asked him is what he thought of the installed propane system. He pulled out his freakin' ABYC book and showed me the "applicable" paragraphs. I pointed out that ABYC is for new construction and this was an old boat. He began to argue that ABYC is a requirement, and said not to worry as he had a friend who could do an installation of an aftermarket system for minimal cost. That got my attention and I told him I wanted to call SAMS. He got very nervous. After speaking to the SAMS person I mentioned above, I told him to get the hell off my boat and not to come back.

 

[boatpoker]

Still playing around with minutia... I spoke with a SAMS surveyor (I thought they were considered technical...but maybe not) at an annual meeting...think it was in Jacksonville.

You never called anyone at an annual meeting unless you already had their cell phone number so you must already know who you talked to. There have been no annual meetings at the Jacksonville office So how did you track down the hotel in another city, did you call the hotel and ask for someone from SAMS ? Your story is preposterous

The organization collects dues, issues certificates, and very little else....by your own admission.

Please show me where I posted this admission ?

You sling a lot of insults and never answer directly any challenges to your fanciful stories.

 

[go-planing]

You never called anyone at an annual meeting unless you already had their cell phone number so you must already know who you talked to. There have been no annual meetings at the Jacksonville office So how did you track down the hotel in another city, did you call the hotel and ask for someone from SAMS ? Your story is preposterous



Please show me where I posted this admission ?

You sling a lot of insults and never answer directly any challenges to your fanciful stories.

I called the SAMS number and got hooked up with a surveyor at the national meeting. It was that simple, my friend. Maybe they had their phones forwarded to someone at the meeting. This incident occurred at least five years ago and I don't remember exactly who initially answered the phone or how I got connected with the surveyor. No vast conspiracy, in any case. Give it a rest.

 

[boatpoker]

Semi-planing, your true colours are showing.

and once again i ask. show me my "admission". And again I say like all your other posts, you can't back them up.