Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 03-10-2008, 07:44 PM   #21
ALG
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4
RE: Probable Cause?

I've accepted the fact that a person/vessel has no rights for a long time as far as the CG and Customs go. The question that I posed was directed at State and Local law enforcement. Where are they given extraordinary powers to stop and search where there is no probable cause? For example, if I am not fishing (no lines in the water) does Fish and Game have the right to fish and search my boat for fish? If I have lines in the water, than I understand. I have no intention of breaking any law but I am troubled with what I see in WA state as far as the local police and the State Patrol. The ugly truth is that if you happen to drive your vehicle in the early morning hours, in many of the smaller towns, you will be stopped and scrutinized. Truth is that law enforcement has become big business. This all happens under the radar, in the name of public safety.
This is getting off topic, but what I always ask is why these officers aren't kicking down doors and arresting the real bad guys with outstanding warrants? There's no revenue in it. The jails will fill up.
So if we have these overzealous officers on the streets and highways, essentially looking for recognition first, and revenue second, what's to keep them off the waterways?
But back to the topic, where are the laws written that give the State and Local people these broad powers?

John
__________________
Advertisement

ALG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 04:49 AM   #22
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,525
RE: Probable Cause?

It is MY understanding that the USCG and local "police" may board for a SAFETY INSPECTION, not a general toss of the boat and its contents.

AS far as I know the ONLY folks that can randomly search a vessel, (weather it has been "out of the USA or not) is the agriculture folks."

YRMV,

My biggest hassles have been with small townships that claim ownership of "mooring fields" to keep visitors bucks flowing.

Sag Harbor NY claims VAST areas (basically all nearby waters not in the marked channel) , even though moorings are only in 5% of the claimed area.



FF

-- Edited by FF at 05:52, 2008-03-11
__________________

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 11:22 AM   #23
Guru
 
Phil Fill's Avatar
 
City: Everett Wa
Country: US
Vessel Name: Eagle
Vessel Model: Roughwater 58 pilot house
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,919
RE: Probable Cause?

It is my understand the*way the water ways work is beyond mean tide the land is controller/regulated by the Federal government.* The Federal government entrust the state to oversee the water way the state, and the state entrust the cities and town.* The state and city/town Dept of Land and Water Use through state and city legislation have divided up the wate.* Furthermore each the water ways a zoned just like land as to use or what can and can not be done on it.

*
For example in Seattle the property owner own the fist 30 to 60 ft but still have to use the water/land as zoned by the city and/or state.* The city regulates I believe 120 ft out and the state owns/regulates beyond 120 ft. *So all the water ways with in the US is inter connected and regulated.* That is the reason its important to all the boaters across US to be concerned what other cities and states are doing.

*
About 5+ years ago Seattle and Washington state tried to regulate to no allow live a boards on city and state regulated land/water.* Well, one of the marines they took to task was your marina, and the picked on the wrong live a boards. **Who fought the city state for several months until we started the Live A Board Association and went public. If it was not for a dozen of so of *live a boards, Live a boards would have been regulated against.*

*
So cities can lay claim/regulate shore/water and they can regulate no anchoring, live a boards, restrict the use of.**They*regulated no live a boards in*the new Everett Marina. **It my believe the state land and use still has a quiet agenda to restrict live a boards and to get the require states approve that is required.* So as *marines need state approval live a board may/will not be allowed.* So if you dont like it get involved.*
Phil Fill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 01:45 PM   #24
Guru
 
2bucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 698
RE: Probable Cause?

"I've accepted the fact that a person/vessel has no rights for a long time as far as the CG and Customs go. The question that I posed was directed at State and Local law enforcement. Where are they given extraordinary powers to stop and search where there is no probable cause?"

The way I've seen it work is that they detain you for an observable violation. Taillight out, questionable trailer hitch, non-compliant lighting scheme, unsafe operation, oil sheen seen from your bilge pump, child without life jacket, etc. Then after they have a reason to make contact with you, they can make further observations, hand rolled cigarette in the ashtray, bait in the 5 gallon bucket, etc. They will ask you for permission to search the boat, or to look in a specific area. If you refuse permission they can continue to detain you while they perform a complete safety check etc.

There is no time limit as to how long this may take. If you are adamant that they cannot search the area they want, and they can find no reason to further detain you, then you're free to go. For example the Fish and Wildlife agent may not have a copy of a specific regulation which he needs to check to see if you are in compliance. A WSP Trooper may be contacted to bring said document. That might take an hour while you wait. The more adamant you are and the more excited you get, the longer they will take. If you pull out a book and show that you have no place you need to be, you just might be released much earlier.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, just that it is.

Ken Buck
2bucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 07:22 PM   #25
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,712
RE: Probable Cause?

Don't know about documented vessels but when I was a teenager in Seattle we rented house boats, then readily availible and considered slums, so the Seattle Police couldn't get us. We could party with the pedal to the metal and all they did was drive by on the road. We ran across the roof into the water, caught fish and saved them in the bath tub ect ect and did'nt get busted for a long time. When the bust finally came ( I think they had the Coast Gaurd with them ) I went into the water like an alligator and got away. I wonder if this is part of my boating history?

Eric
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 08:33 PM   #26
Guru
 
2bucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 698
RE: Probable Cause?

"I went into the water like an alligator"

Now THAT would be a picture worth posting here. Eric running on all fours with his mouth wide open showing all his teeth.

Sorry, my imagination got away from me.

Ken Buck
2bucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2008, 11:36 AM   #27
Guru
 
Phil Fill's Avatar
 
City: Everett Wa
Country: US
Vessel Name: Eagle
Vessel Model: Roughwater 58 pilot house
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,919
RE: Probable Cause?

First it is not something you would want to take on alone unless you were forced into. Our case we were forced into a corn and what started out as a stall tactic escalated into something much bigger.* Sort of like the tip of the ice berg.* At the very least start with a group of live a boards in your marina, and other local marinas.* I would caution you about keeping a low profile and not let/get the marina managers involved unless you have an exit plan.* Our plan was to move back to the dirt is necessary, which is one of the reasons we bought a condo.

*
At the Everett Marina the marine still sees the live a boards as positive and have even mentions a couple of time to request the city of Everett to allow live a boars for security reasons, as live a board to protect and keep and eye one things.* Not allowing live aboard I the new marina has open up moorage I the old that does allow so it has not been total negative.*

*
However, if the city/marine/state wants to eliminate live a board in the old marine, then thats a different story and a time to take a stand, but again have an exit plan.* Also be aware that marinas in the areas also meet have an association so getting on a marines bad list can cause long term effects.* As a marine for what ever reason can give you 30 day notice.*

*
So I highly caution you to evaluate before you start something you do not want to take on at this time. If I/we were not push I would have not gotten involved. Also, make sure the live aboard police them self which was a big negative for us as there were many live a boards that did not meet regulations and living as they generally thought live aboard were. So certain marines, live a boards, business, and in general the lake was clean up and regulated more.

*
*Many non live aboard boats that were not capable of leaving the dock were given 30 days notice to show there boat was capable of leaving the dock.* As a result the whole lake got a waking up.* Boaters now have to prove insurance, meet sanitation requirements, keep their boat in a reasonable condition.* You marina require the boats be keep to a yacht quality condition, if not you were give 30 days to bring it up to standards.* So I can understand where the city and state where coming from, but as it turned out it was not the live a boards per say but the general boating public.* *So clean your own house/area before you start something.* Is the few that can effect the majority.

*
Feel free to email me at rw58Ph@yahoo.com. *
Phil Fill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2008, 11:46 AM   #28
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 14
RE: Probable Cause?

yours, mine and almost anyone's initial contact with law enforcement is usually under what is knowns as "reasonable suspicion." Authority can stop you and ask quesiton based on practically no suspicious activity at all.

The Coastie's authority to seach you vessel for limited reasons is allowed, even though it seems to violate the constitution, because the courts have found that your rights are subject to rights of others to be free from a danger that might be caused by you. They can do so in a way that is narrowly tailored to resolve certain court recognized things, like the presence of safety equipment.

Neither the coast guard nor anyone else, can thoroughly search every compartment in a boat without "probably cause." Normally the law requires probable cause plus an exigent circumstance to conduct a search or arrest. But the courts have ruled as a practical matter the portability of boats, airplanes and automobiles is iteself an exigent circumstance.

So, authorities can board your boat to search for safety gear, to review your identification, and to inquire as to your intentions simply because your boat is a boat. Then, once there, if they reasonably believe a weapon is or could be present and that you or someone else on your boat poses a danger, they can search compartments which are reasonably in your or your passengers' reach and that could reasonably contain a dangerous weapon. For example, after the satisfactory completion of a normal safety and environmental inspection, they could handcuff you and seach all nearby lockers and cubbyholes. If they found a matchbox, however, they could not open it without probable cause as it is not large enough to hide a weapon.

This is of course, the theory of the law. In practice, few sailors are handcuffed and their immediate surroundings searched. But you see how easy it is on the part of hte authorities to do so. By the way these are the same rules as those applied to automobile stops.

Some additional points to remember are taht they cannot keep you longer than is resonable to accomplish their goal. They cannot keep you for an hour while they wait for a drug sniffing dog, but if one is readily available without an unreasonable wait, you can get sniffed.

all of this law predates Bush 1 and 2, and Bill and Hillary Rhodam (her name is not nor was it ever Clinton.)

Lastly, if your boat is documented, the Gov't can even confiscate it for the public use. That was the original purpose of documentation.
elmore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2008, 04:02 PM   #29
Guru
 
Keith's Avatar
 
Vessel Name: Anastasia III
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,716
RE: Probable Cause?

Ok, Elmore, Doug, et al.... How did you get the title "consigliere"* after 16 posts, while the rest of us are stuck with things like "newbie" and "senior member"?

Definition:

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td>con∑si∑glie∑re [ kÚn seel yť ray ] (plural con∑si∑glie∑ri [ kÚn seel yťrree ])</td></tr><tr><td class="ResultBody">

noun*</td></tr><tr><td height="20"></td></tr><tr><td class="ResultBodyBlack">Definition:</td></tr><tr><td>*</td></tr><tr><td>adviser to organized-crime boss:*an adviser to the leader of a crime syndicate
</td></tr></tbody></table>

-- Edited by Keith at 17:03, 2008-03-13
Keith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2008, 05:19 PM   #30
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 14
RE: Probable Cause?

Did you read the post about "probable cause?" That reminds me, i used to see a 38' scarab named "probable cause" around the bay.
elmore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2008, 10:39 AM   #31
Guru
 
Keith's Avatar
 
Vessel Name: Anastasia III
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,716
RE: Probable Cause?

What's so hard about keeping non-boating posts in the non-boating section? ****, are these folks going to hijack EVERY thread?

Maybe we should have a "deep six" section...
Keith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2008, 01:25 PM   #32
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Probable Cause?

At least there is a forum catagory here where this sort of thing can be talked about by those who are interested. Makes it a little more understandable why the Trawlers & Trawlering list is moderated the way it is. Some people think the T&T adminstrators are too heavy handed, but with only one list for all the posts, the whole thing would degenerate into political arguments in no time if the adminstrators didn't step in and stop the non-boating threads.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2008, 10:48 PM   #33
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,630
RE: Probable Cause?

Quote:
Marin wrote:

At least there is a forum catagory here where this sort of thing can be talked about by those who are interested. Makes it a little more understandable why the Trawlers & Trawlering list is moderated the way it is. Some people think the T&T adminstrators are too heavy handed, but with only one list for all the posts, the whole thing would degenerate into political arguments in no time if the adminstrators didn't step in and stop the non-boating threads.
Thanks for the observation Marin.*

Let's try to keep the boat related threads.....uhhhh....boat related.* If yo'all have to talk politics, go OTDE.
Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2008, 10:50 PM   #34
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,630
RE: Probable Cause?

Quote:
Keith wrote:

What's so hard about keeping non-boating posts in the non-boating section? ****, are these folks going to hijack EVERY thread?

Maybe we should have a "deep six" section...
Hmmmmm.....I have no idea what you are talking about!!!!...I had to do a little moderatin'!


-- Edited by Baker at 23:51, 2008-03-19
__________________

Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012