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Old 02-11-2014, 10:47 AM   #1
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Potential to close part of Great Loop

[QUOTE=ActiveCaptain;212601]

It might very well be that the loop won't even be possible in future years given a bill in Congress right now that would block the possibility of doing the loop.

/QUOTE]

Let's hope that the Great Lakes are sealed off from the Mississippi River system by closing the locks in the Chicago area. One of the natural wonders of the world is under relentless attack from invasive species.
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:45 AM   #2
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It might very well be that the loop won't even be possible in future years given a bill in Congress right now that would block the possibility of doing the loop.


where might one find more facts on this ?
thanks
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:58 AM   #3
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where might one find more facts on this ?
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:32 PM   #4
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As the article explains, haul out systems could be implemented to move small boats over land from Lake Michigan to an entry point beyond the permanent physical barrier. A tiny price to pay to preclude the environmental disaster that is looming. One would hope that every boater with a love for the water would aggressively support this legislation.
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:02 PM   #5
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As the article explains, haul out systems could be implemented to move small boats over land from Lake Michigan to an entry point beyond the permanent physical barrier. A tiny price to pay to preclude the environmental disaster that is looming. One would hope that every boater with a love for the water would aggressively support this legislation.

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Old 02-11-2014, 01:05 PM   #6
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Let's hope that the Great Lakes are sealed off from the Mississippi River system by closing the locks in the Chicago area. One of the natural wonders of the world is under relentless attack from invasive species.
Seams to me that a travel lift and a good wash down or a dip in a tank of something to kill invasive species (i.e. salt water or hot water) could accomplish the same purpose without blocking the great loop.
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:06 PM   #7
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Greetings,
I fully agree with halting the spread of invasive species, asian carp in this case but will such a barrier, as proposed, be a GUARANTEE of success? What about egg transfer?
Just read Mr. p's post.....wash down or dip....What about water held in the bilge waters? Zebra mussels come to mind.
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:27 PM   #8
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Greetings,
I fully agree with halting the spread of invasive species, asian carp in this case but will such a barrier, as proposed, be a GUARANTEE of success? What about egg transfer?
Just read Mr. p's post.....wash down or dip....What about water held in the bilge waters? Zebra mussels come to mind.
A boat moving over land from Lake Michigan into the river system should be "clean" in this regard. An overland haul system should take care of southbound Loopers....likely at an added expense, of course. Zebra mussels and their kin are already raising havoc with nuclear power plants on the Great Lakes. With the exception of Illinois and possibly Indiana, I believe every state bordering the Lakes and Canada are pushing to seal off the Chicago access point. The Administration has been dragging its feet and making excuses for years. Considering the President's home town, no surprise.
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:54 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by skidgear View Post
As the article explains, haul out systems could be implemented to move small boats over land from Lake Michigan to an entry point beyond the permanent physical barrier. A tiny price to pay to preclude the environmental disaster that is looming. One would hope that every boater with a love for the water would aggressively support this legislation.
And assuming that there could be very limited looping for a period then there are still options to accomplish much the same as the trip down the Mississippi isn't the most exciting element. Then it's do U Turns. Go to Chicago, turn around and go back. At the other end, go up the Tombigbee to the Tennessee, Cumberland and Ohio and then return. A couple of great half loops and by returning through the same path you see even more.

That's like the "Great U" which is Alaska to Maine (or beyond).

Doing a U turn takes the 19' 2" Chicago bridge out as a problem too
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Old 02-11-2014, 04:41 PM   #10
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From that study:

"According to the study, a complete physical separation would prevent 95-100 percent of Asian carp from entering Lake Michigan."

Seems to me like those carp are going to make it sooner or later, regardless of what the Corp does. It will only take 2 randy carp to make into the lake..
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Old 02-12-2014, 06:52 AM   #11
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We have great GM food ,

how about some fish that eat Zebra mussels and dine on carp?
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:33 AM   #12
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In case you're interested in seeing the actual bill proposed last week, here it is:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...13hr4001ih.pdf

I'm not sure how much support there is for the bill or how quickly it could be implemented. It would make a pretty large offload/onload requirement for all of those barges coming down from Lake Michigan.

I think there are many "Great-U" possibilities and some other loops possible. For example, heading up the Hudson and going around the Erie Canal, Lake Ontario, downstream on the St Lawrence, and eventually to Lake Champlain and back down the Hudson is quite a reasonable summer cruise. Personally, I'd like to do the entire Erie Canal again to Lake Erie. Cruise around the Ohio islands and then come back to the Erie Canal to get back to the Chesapeake by fall.

Cruising upstream the Tenn-Tom is certainly possible too although not in the spring. But a summer cruise up to Green Turtle? I think that's a wonderful thing. And given the type of resort for cruisers that they're working on, it's a very realistic plan for many trawlers to accomplish.
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:35 AM   #13
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Greetings,
Mr. ronlord. Exacta-mundo. 2 randy carp, 1 pregnant female or some fertilized eggs! I think even IF the waterway is completely closed it's still inevitable the Great Lakes will be affected. Short of poisoning all the feeder tributaries within 500 miles of Lake Michigan and THEN erecting permanent barriers infestation is a foregone conclusion.
Mr. FF. The Freshwater Drum and Scaup (diving duck) are known to eat Zebra mussles. Possibly a better solution would be recipes. Hmmmm....Carp a la Zebra with Bearnaise mushrooms and a soupcon of grits.
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Old 02-12-2014, 08:03 AM   #14
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Permanently closing off the Mississippi is just a slowing down process, it is not even close to a permanent fix. Eggs stick to birds legs, how do we stop that. Also what about eggs sticking to small skiffs that are trailered all over the place and as RT mentioned - bilges.
This is a serious problem and if shutting off that part of the loop will help until a permanent fix can be found, so be it.

It would also be nice if the Anti-American faction would control themselves on here and keep this thread non-political.
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Old 02-12-2014, 08:13 AM   #15
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Seams to me that a travel lift and a good wash down or a dip in a tank of something to kill invasive species (i.e. salt water or hot water) could accomplish the same purpose without blocking the great loop.
Exactly.

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Greetings,
I fully agree with halting the spread of invasive species, asian carp in this case but will such a barrier, as proposed, be a GUARANTEE of success? What about egg transfer?
Just read Mr. p's post.....wash down or dip....What about water held in the bilge waters? Zebra mussels come to mind.
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From that study:

"According to the study, a complete physical separation would prevent 95-100 percent of Asian carp from entering Lake Michigan."

Seems to me like those carp are going to make it sooner or later, regardless of what the Corp does. It will only take 2 randy carp to make into the lake..
The above statements are correct. Once they're there, they're there, and unless you find a way to eradicate them ALL, you're not going to rid the lakes of them. Essentially we'll spend billions of taxpayer dollars that we don't have (that's a new concept), and there's still no guarantee that it will correct the problem.

I too am in favor of halting the spread of invasive species. I listen to this every time we do the DOI instructors update course, and it's amazing to me, how much damage these things can do to the ecosystem. That said, I'm NOT in favor of overspending on something we "think" will work.

I agree with a haul out and transfer of ALL vessels transiting the area. During that procedure, have an inspection by USGS, USFWS, a State organization or a private eco group., and use whatever kills them to wash down the boat. As for bilge tanks, there has to be a chemical that eradicates the species. Require it to be added to the tanks during/prior to haul out, then pump the tanks prior to reentering the water.

There are some great suggestions here:

  1. Continuing current efforts (i.e., the electric barriers) with “No New Federal Action — Sustained Activities.”
  2. Nonstructural control technologies (i.e., education, monitoring, herbicides, ballast water management).
  3. A technology concept involving a specialized lock, lock channel, electric barriers and ANS treatment plants at two mid-system locations in the CAWS.
That are already in use to some degree. Just ramp up the efforts, at a control point(s).

These measure should also eliminate 95-100% of the transfer problem as it pertains to boats, without the huge taxpayer burden and navigational issues. The much larger problem is going to be, how do you get the existing species out of the lakes and rivers??

And as long as we have trailered boats/PWC's travelling between states, with no inspection procedures prior to launching, you're still going to have a potential for introduction.

Personally, I just think it's phenomenal waste of money when other options are available.

JMHO

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Old 02-12-2014, 08:52 AM   #16
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The best solution would be to find a way to make harvesting these fish profitable. Whenever a profit is to be had, we are really good at eradicating a species.
Unfortunately, this is not a new idea and I'm sure some ideas were tried and failed.
From what I understand efforts were made to introduce this really bad smelling fish into restaurants. Apparently, most Americans do not like the smell or taste.

Surely someone can come up with a use for these fish. Not only are they overcrowding and easy to catch, they even jump in your boat and save you the time and trouble.

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Old 02-12-2014, 01:44 PM   #17
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It would also be nice if the Anti-American faction would control themselves on here and keep this thread non-political.
The moderators split this off from another thread. Perhaps it would have been better placed in OTDE. That said, every last one of the suggestions and options posted thus far have been discussed for many years by interested parties bordering the Great Lakes. It is simply a fact that Illinois has been fighting this tooth and nail. Why??? $$$$, pure and simple. The other side, a solid block of States and Canada, represent the multi billion dollar fishing industry (sport and commercial), environmentalists, property owners and tourist towns bordering the lakes, and the Great Lakes pleasure boating community (apparently with the possible exception of some in the transient looper group). Not clear where the Anti-American faction remark comes from. I don't believe there's any debate on the Canadian side. Hoards of jumping carp in the North Channel of Lake Huron, Georgian Bay, the Trent-Severn, the Rideau, and the rivers and tributaries of the Provences isn't particularly appealing. There's a very good chance that's what loopers of the future will face if something drastic isn't done now. The effectiveness of current measures including electric fences is highly questionable...well not so much by politicians and citizens in the Chicago area. Even if a few get through, a physical closure will preclude a larger infestation and provide time to develop chemical or biological eradication techniques. A targeted poison has finally been developed and implemented in Michigan rivers to kill the larvae of the Lampry eel, which has been threatening the sport fish in the Lakes. That takes money....but more importantly, time. Michiganers for sure aren't very happy about the Chicago holdout. It is political. Surely that's not anti-American.
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Old 02-12-2014, 01:54 PM   #18
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The moderators split this off from another thread. Perhaps it would have been better placed in OTDE. That said, every last one of the suggestions and options posted thus far have been discussed for many years by interested parties bordering the Great Lakes. It is simply a fact that Illinois has been fighting this tooth and nail. Why??? $$$$, pure and simple. The other side, a solid block of States and Canada, represent the multi billion dollar fishing industry (sport and commercial), environmentalists, property owners and tourist towns bordering the lakes, and the Great Lakes pleasure boating community (apparently with the possible exception of some in the transient looper group). Not clear where the Anti-American faction remark comes from. I don't believe there's any debate on the Canadian side. Hoards of jumping carp in the North Channel of Lake Huron, Georgian Bay, the Trent-Severn, the Rideau, and the rivers and tributaries of the Provences isn't particularly appealing. There's a very good chance that's what loopers of the future will face if something drastic isn't done now. The effectiveness of current measures including electric fences is highly questionable...well not so much in the Chicago area. Even if a few get through, a physical closure will preclude a larger infestation and provide time to develop chemical or biological eradication techniques. A targeted poison has finally been developed and implemented in Michigan rivers to kill the larvae of the Lampry eel, which has been threatening the sport fish in the Lakes. That takes money....but more importantly, time. Michiganers for sure aren't very happy about the Chicago holdout. It is political. Surely that's not anti-American.
Agreed....not anti-anything...just 2 reasons to do something or not....

I'd much rather protect a resource (if it truly had hope of working) than worry about the great loop...I never planned on doing the loop anyway (after carefull study it sounds more like a ticket punch than truly enjoyed)but I sure as Shi* plan on cruising the Great lakes it's tribs and just fishing there again in my lifetime....
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Old 02-12-2014, 02:31 PM   #19
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A targeted poison has finally been developed and implemented in Michigan rivers to kill the larvae of the Lampry eel, which has been threatening the sport fish in the Lakes.
Does anyone know the effectiveness of such poison, and the long term effect on the eco system?

Without a doubt, when you introduce one substance, there creates another problem.
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Old 02-12-2014, 02:43 PM   #20
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Does anyone know the effectiveness of such poison, and the long term effect on the eco system?

Without a doubt, when you introduce one substance, there creates another problem.
I have no idea as to the chemistry or long term effect, but they used it last Spring in a small local river that feeds into Lake Michigan. Dock talk was that it degraded very quickly. No obvious effect such as fish die off.
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