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Old 09-01-2015, 09:51 AM   #121
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This is not a warranty event; not sure why Sabre would be in the mix.

Nor are Zeus drives new; they've been out for years.

If the "normal" time it takes to get a drive replaced is more than one month, I won't buy the product.
On further reflection, Sabre might be in the mix. If Sabre offers the boat only with the Zeus, and it takes more than a month to get a drive from Mercury, I won't buy a Zeus and I won't buy a Sabre.

Sabre might have an interest in keeping a spare drive in stock to convince someone like me to buy the boat.
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Old 09-01-2015, 09:56 AM   #122
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Old 09-01-2015, 09:57 AM   #123
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For those not reading the entire thread, the boat is a Meridian, NOT a Sabre.
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Old 09-01-2015, 10:06 AM   #124
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Not to hijack this thread from pod discussion... but...

In general similarity, regarding pleasure boat unique propulsion system choices: What happened to jet-drives?

Is it that straight drive is simply the best yet... I think maybe!
Jet drives are not very efficient other than at speed, many jets boats have no rudders which is an issue for adding autopilots, they handle differently at the dock which means there is a learning curve that many people don't want to be bothered with, etc.
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Old 09-01-2015, 10:07 AM   #125
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Not to hijack this thread from pod discussion... but...

In general similarity, regarding pleasure boat unique propulsion system choices: What happened to jet-drives?

Is it that straight drive is simply the best yet... I think maybe!
Jet drives are still alive and well in some segments of the market. The largest selling boat on the market in the 20-25' range is and has now for years been a jet drive. Larger yachts wanting speed and performance often have jet drives. Jet drives offer some unique advantages and some disadvantages. For a trawler speed boat, they would not be an appropriate choice as they are less efficient than a straight drive in that situation.

Don't forget Hinckley's either or some of the aluminum jet boats. Jets alive and well. Also on RIBS, jets do have a substantial market presence in Europe. And while talking jets, one of the largest selling segments of the boat market and the one to grow the most in recent years is 100% jet. That is PWC's.
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Old 09-01-2015, 10:19 AM   #126
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You have a collision or allision, technically in this case, and to wait a month for repair doesn't surprise me at all. None of us know if any of that time was used by getting approval from the insurer. But even saying it wasn't, I've seen plenty of automobiles wait weeks for accident repairs and often for parts. All zeus pods aren't identical. How recent or how common was his model? I run into something with my boat and rip out the shaft and prop and part of the drive train and I can assure you I have a nice little wait in front of me. I am not going to be sucked into a condemnation of Zeus based on one situation which doesn't seem that unreasonable to me and in which I don't have all the information. I've seen substantial waits on stern drives when lower units have been destroyed.

Another comparison. Blow the engine in your car and decide to do a complete replacement with a new engine and let me know how long the wait there is?

This is definitely not a dealer stocked item and manufacturers stock a relatively low amount of parts.

This isn't a failure of a part in normal use. This is an accident repair.
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Old 09-01-2015, 10:23 AM   #127
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If Sabre is only offering Zeus drives , I believe this will lead to there eventual downfall. 1MPG(statute mile) @26 kts is a very economical run. Sabre can tout Cummins/zeus drive , but the word will get out about parts availability and other problems . The straight drive set up is proven, why not offer it, as they had done for years? The market may prove me wrong.
I want to be the Zeus dealer in the Bahamas! No Problem Mon, wee have it here in a week.
Whats wrong with the proven straight drive setup, in half tunnels that the Sabres are known for?
I can't imagine that Mercury would let a situation like this exist without getting it solved pronto. They simply have invested too much time and money into selling, designing, and manufacturing this complex product.

As for Sabre, they did offer the 42 both ways. When they dropped that model the 40 (now called a 42) and 48 were totally designed for pods. To take advantage of the space advantages of pod drives a boat has to really be designed from the keel up for it.

What's wrong with straight drives. To my mind absolutely nothing. No drive is perfect in every circumstance. However, twin straight drives with a couple of big, honking, torquey diesels do it for me. Economy is pretty good, also.

To show the space advantages of pods take a look at the extra cabin in the Sabre 48. I think the 48 is a smashing design. There is a virtual tour on the Sabre website.

Images of the Sabre 48 motor yacht made in Maine. Interior and exterior details | Sabre Yachts
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Old 09-01-2015, 11:56 AM   #128
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Another comparison. Blow the engine in your car and decide to do a complete replacement with a new engine and let me know how long the wait there is
The comparison is inapt. I can rent a car, or buy another, while I wait for repairs. Can't do that with the boat. The boat is "mission critical."

My employer distributes expensive, long-lead machines manufactured by others. If our customers thought they might have to wait more than a month for repairs, they wouldn't buy the machine from us to begin with. We keep "swing" units in stock to deal with this.

Marine suppliers could do the same, but won't if consumers put up with the status quo.

And I too, have been careful to say this is a problem only if a one month response time from Mercury is normal.
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Old 09-01-2015, 12:44 PM   #129
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See my thread on Pods. A guy on my dock is dealing with issues related to his Zeus system.

And the only thing I can think of jet drives advantage is draft. They are SIGNIFICANTLY less efficient....to the tune of about 30%. Likely the reason they are not prolific. Why Hinckley uses them I do not know. Not to mention sucking things up in the pump. I used to have a Sea Doo twin engine jet boat. I was pulling crap out of the pumps all the time. Yamaha jet boats even have an on board access point to the pumps so you can clean crap out. You are driving a vacuum cleaner sucking up everything in site.
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Old 09-01-2015, 01:06 PM   #130
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B&B-I can't speak to a complete engine replacement, but I did need a top end rebuild on an '07 VW Passat (why is a whole 'nuther story!) along with water pump, timing chain and gear and a few other things,, the dealer told me just after noon on a Tuesday, had a complete replacement head Wednesday morning, completed the job before noon on Thursday. While Mercury may not match that, they certainly should do better than a month, and having to send techs in? Who then don't have all the parts needed? Bad customer service.
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Old 09-01-2015, 01:58 PM   #131
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See my thread on Pods. A guy on my dock is dealing with issues related to his Zeus system.

And the only thing I can think of jet drives advantage is draft.
As you get to larger jet systems the efficiency difference decreases. In fact, AB Yachts says that they have a better efficiency than shaft transmission or surface propeller. Low maintenance, easy to handle. Yes, I know most here don't have that impression but the right jets on the right boats have incredible handling. An AB 58 cruises at 48 knots with WOT of 54 knots. An AB 145 cruises at 43 knots with WOT of 46 knots. Also, then on a 145' yacht they can get into marinas that many other boats can't.
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Old 09-01-2015, 07:59 PM   #132
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Whether or not the rock was on the charts is not relevant to the issue at hand. It appears that you do your boating in AZ.

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The rock is indeed relevant. Assigning degree of blame and deductible can cause further delays. Payment via insurance claims and time go hand in hand. Is it an insurance claim - that could well be a reason for a hard to get part delay. So say my contacts at a very large yard on salt water where I do my boating. It gets doubly complicated when an insurer will not pay for new but rebuilt instead. Are we speaking new or rebuilt?

I don't have a dog in this fight but after 8 pages of Zeus bashing over facts not known I'll be in the Z corner.

BTW, I have seen Sabres with pods and the boat space and design is marvelous IMHO. Easy to see why GB sales of old stuff are down.
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Old 09-01-2015, 09:14 PM   #133
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Sometimes what you don't hear tells you as much as what you do hear. I'm not surprised there are a couple of cases of pods being destroyed or people having problems with pods, although do find it interesting they are Zeus and not Volvo. However, there have been a lot of pods sold at this point. They are no longer "new." They're established and successful. If there were major issues or the product didn't have some very nice attributes we would be hearing a barrage of complaints and pods would be on their way down and not up. Also, boat builders would not be risking their future with an unproven technology.

Pods are proven now and they have a space in the market. There are boats on which they're a great choice. Today, I wouldn't personally buy a boat just to say I got pods but I wouldn't not buy one because of them. I'd evaluate the entire boat and all it's features plus my intended use and location. Pods didn't revolutionize the industry like they might have tried to convince us would happen. But, largely due to Volvo, pods built a significant base in the pleasure boat business. I say due to Volvo as they're the ones who really promoted their IPS. Brunswick getting into pods for recreational boats was as much defensive as anything. They weren't going to use Volvo and they didn't want to lose sales because they couldn't match them. If Marquis was going to have pods, Sea Ray had to as well.

There's not an engine or drive out there that can't have problems, but from what I've heard or, more importantly not heard, pods have held their own quite well.
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Old 09-01-2015, 11:30 PM   #134
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Jet drives are not very efficient other than at speed, many jets boats have no rudders which is an issue for adding autopilots, they handle differently at the dock which means there is a learning... curve that many people don't want to be bothered with, etc.
By "... at speed" I believe you relate to on plane for a planing hull; correct?
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Old 09-01-2015, 11:40 PM   #135
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Sometimes what you don't hear tells you as much as what you do hear. I'm not surprised there are a couple of cases of pods being destroyed or people having problems with pods, although do find it interesting they are Zeus and not Volvo. However, there have been a lot of pods sold at this point. They are no longer "new." They're established and successful. If there were major issues or the product didn't have some very nice attributes we would be hearing a barrage of complaints and pods would be on their way down and not up. Also, boat builders would not be risking their future with an unproven technology.

Pods are proven now and they have a space in the market. There are boats on which they're a great choice. Today, I wouldn't personally buy a boat just to say I got pods but I wouldn't not buy one because of them. I'd evaluate the entire boat and all it's features plus my intended use and location. Pods didn't revolutionize the industry like they might have tried to convince us would happen. But, largely due to Volvo, pods built a significant base in the pleasure boat business. I say due to Volvo as they're the ones who really promoted their IPS. Brunswick getting into pods for recreational boats was as much defensive as anything. They weren't going to use Volvo and they didn't want to lose sales because they couldn't match them. If Marquis was going to have pods, Sea Ray had to as well.

There's not an engine or drive out there that can't have problems, but from what I've heard or, more importantly not heard, pods have held their own quite well.
Wonder why we've not heard more really-good reviews by more pod owners/users? Maybe we have --- i.e. you have, and, I just haven't; I don't follow many boating publications.
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Old 09-01-2015, 11:47 PM   #136
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Wonder why we've not heard more really-good reviews by more pod owners/users? Maybe we have --- i.e. you have, and, I just haven't; I don't follow many boating publications.
Well, not many pods on trawlers. As to publications, most of them only have good reviews. I just listen to those I meet who have them and the scuttlebutt that gets around plus the opinions of those in the industry, whether shipyards or builders. I have glanced at other sites where they'd perhaps be more likely to post and seen very little discussion one way or another. People are many times more likely to publicize the bad than the good though so the fact I've not seen and heard a lot of bad, especially haven't about IPS, I take as good.
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Old 09-02-2015, 08:45 AM   #137
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Well, not many pods on trawlers. As to publications, most of them only have good reviews. I just listen to those I meet who have them and the scuttlebutt that gets around plus the opinions of those in the industry, whether shipyards or builders. I have glanced at other sites where they'd perhaps be more likely to post and seen very little discussion one way or another. People are many times more likely to publicize the bad than the good though so the fact I've not seen and heard a lot of bad, especially haven't about IPS, I take as good.
B - You seem to have tour finger on the pulse of many boating agendas. Can you provide the number of pods actually on boats currently? TY, Art
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Old 09-02-2015, 11:59 AM   #138
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B - You seem to have tour finger on the pulse of many boating agendas. Can you provide the number of pods actually on boats currently? TY, Art
I have no idea. I know IPS is in about 250 brands and estimate Zeus is in about a third of that. I don't see them broken down anywhere. They hit a market segment that was struggling too, the lower end of inboards and upper end of inboard-outboards. I/O sales have continued to shrink.

I did find an interesting test finally in the same boat, from Yachting Magazine, in a Sabre 52 express. 2 x IPS 900 vs. 2 X CAT 865.

Beyond the Hype: Pod Drives | Yachting Magazine
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Old 09-02-2015, 12:24 PM   #139
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I have no idea. I know IPS is in about 250 brands and estimate Zeus is in about a third of that. I don't see them broken down anywhere. They hit a market segment that was struggling too, the lower end of inboards and upper end of inboard-outboards. I/O sales have continued to shrink.

I did find an interesting test finally in the same boat, from Yachting Magazine, in a Sabre 52 express. 2 x IPS 900 vs. 2 X CAT 865.

Beyond the Hype: Pod Drives | Yachting Magazine
That seems a very objective article. Siebert Yacht Services has done quite a bit of work for me, and they service many Sabres. I think Bentley Collins summed it up pretty well.
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Old 09-02-2015, 01:53 PM   #140
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That seems a very objective article. Siebert Yacht Services has done quite a bit of work for me, and they service many Sabres. I think Bentley Collins summed it up pretty well.
I thought you'd like it if you hadn't previously seen it. Best comparison I've seen with good numbers. I also applaud Siebert for saying up front there is more maintenance.
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