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Old 08-10-2016, 11:29 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by WesK View Post

The important thing to remember about "crowd sourced" information is that 50% of the population (the crowd) is below average intelligence. Many are way below average.
That would be median, not average. More than 50% is below average, for the intelligence distribution is not symmetric.
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Old 08-10-2016, 11:38 AM   #42
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I just have to ask, what was the purpose of this thread? Are there not enough things in ones life to focus on without trying to dig up an issue with someone else...it almost seems like there is just a wealth of time on ones hands and nothing to do with it so let's make an issue out of something. I have absolutely no affiliation with AC or anyone associated with it...I just don't understand the why
Excuse me while I return to the things that bring me joy, or busted knuckles

***the above post probably includes me regarding intelligence, sorry for my ignorance
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Old 08-10-2016, 12:00 PM   #43
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I have no skin in this game, but it's odd that this is now a third thread about AC in the past week, one of which was closed to allow things to cool off.....

Did someone piddle in the floor somewhere to make this angst, animosity and posturing to make it all worthwhile?

Now about how much chain to put on my anchor......
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Old 08-10-2016, 12:08 PM   #44
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This is another version of the age old fight between "creative" and "sales". I have found my own intellectual property used in other people's videos. It's never been an issue where I am hurt financially, but it's quite irritating. It's NOT a compliment! A compliment is when the Discovery Channel asks permission to use my video, or NBC Sports buys some footage.

Sam is a writer, and a darn good one. His canine in this scuffle is perhaps less "legal" and more "moral". I see the same thing he does in the examples set forth. It's been essentially copied, plain and simple. Writers and content creators do not like this. People who are not creators and/or are business owners who rely on content creators will find ways to defend it. If the AC poster was as intelligent as indicated the posts would have been written in a more original voice, especially given the use of the guidebook in question. The defense of this plagiarism is merely the justification of "sales" trumping "creative". Happens all the time in the context of "business".

As far as crowd sourced information, I personally don't use it very much. Never use Yelp or Trip Advisor. They're kind of like movie reviews, just someone else's opinion. I've never needed Active Captain here in the PNW, although I understand it's not intended to proffer opinions. I rely on charts, local knowledge, guidebooks, etc. Haven't run aground yet...
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Old 08-10-2016, 12:42 PM   #45
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I know I may not see the right way to do things as others here, but I am not understanding the righteous indignation.

Has no one here been on the internet recently?

But besides that, facts are facts. That seems to be lost in the heat of the emotions.

Most cruising guides say the same thing, why, because they are describing a physical layout that exists. Thus if I say, “turn right after 200 feet and look for the green marker” that’s not plagiarism because you happened to read the exact same description somewhere else.

It’s a fact.

Now, the next issue, is the OP suggesting that this Kayley person sat down with a cruising guide and copied out of it to make posts on AC?

Why, what am I missing?

Is there a reward for making posts on AC? Then I will start tomorrow!!

Anyone who still thinks Jeff should waste his time with this should get a life.

Or better yet go cruising.

Richard waiting for the winds to die down. No wait, I am sure someone else has mentioned that on the internet today. SO SORRY.
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Old 08-10-2016, 01:05 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Wxx3 View Post
I know I may not see the right way to do things as others here, but I am not understanding the righteous indignation.

Has no one here been on the internet recently?

But besides that, facts are facts. That seems to be lost in the heat of the emotions.

Most cruising guides say the same thing, why, because they are describing a physical layout that exists. Thus if I say, “turn right after 200 feet and look for the green marker” that’s not plagiarism because you happened to read the exact same description somewhere else.

It’s a fact.

Now, the next issue, is the OP suggesting that this Kayley person sat down with a cruising guide and copied out of it to make posts on AC?

Why, what am I missing?

Is there a reward for making posts on AC? Then I will start tomorrow!!

Anyone who still thinks Jeff should waste his time with this should get a life.

Or better yet go cruising.

Richard waiting for the winds to die down. No wait, I am sure someone else has mentioned that on the internet today. SO SORRY.
I think you're missing one thing. Others who have an interest including the OP who has a relationship with the party he feels was infringed upon and Moonfish who is a commercial member and provides cruising information.

I personally think both sides are wrong. Actually that statement is true in the vast majority of disputes. I think the attackers of AC are going overboard and I think Jeff failed to diffuse the situation as he could have.

However, when all is said and done, I agree with you Richard, that it's being blown out of proportion. I dislike the use of a pleasure forum to forward agendas.

Here's the summary.

Complainant. There are posts on AC that appear to be plagiarized. I reported to AC (although not through the proper channels) and Jeffrey's response didn't satisfy me.

Jeffrey: I reviewed the complaint and talked to the poster. It was my determination that no copy rights had been violated and I allowed the posts to stand as is. That is my final decision. I'm sorry you didn't find my response acceptable. If you would like to discuss further please use the contact shown on the AC website. I'm not going into further detail on a public forum.

Complainant. I am still not satisfied.

That's all really that needed to be said.
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Old 08-10-2016, 01:58 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Lost Horizons View Post
That would be median, not average. More than 50% is below average, for the intelligence distribution is not symmetric.
Median, average, doesn't matter. That bunch crashed their boats early on and don't post to AC.
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Old 08-10-2016, 02:22 PM   #48
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That's all really that needed to be said.
I think there are interesting aspects of the internet and crowd-sourcing that could have been talked about without the attacks about what I'm doing wrong. There is an entire industry set up around these DMCA types of issues. If you're taking part in this discussion but haven't at least Google'd DMCA and read the Wikipedia page, you're not informed.

While you're there, search "fair use" in Wikipedia and really read that. I mean really read it. I think that will show the legal side of this argument. You might not know about these laws and rulings and might not agree with them. But they are the law that we all agree to conform to.

These types of online uses do not follow the rules of college term papers from 1976 (1966?). That's like saying paper charts are better because you used them in 1985. It was a different time with different rules for a different environment.
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Old 08-10-2016, 02:27 PM   #49
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Is there a reward for making posts on AC? Then I will start tomorrow!!
I got a pretty sweet hat out of the deal! Thanks Jeff!
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Old 08-10-2016, 02:45 PM   #50
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I think there are interesting aspects of the internet and crowd-sourcing that could have been talked about without the attacks about what I'm doing wrong. There is an entire industry set up around these DMCA types of issues. If you're taking part in this discussion but haven't at least Google'd DMCA and read the Wikipedia page, you're not informed.

While you're there, search "fair use" in Wikipedia and really read that. I mean really read it. I think that will show the legal side of this argument. You might not know about these laws and rulings and might not agree with them. But they are the law that we all agree to conform to.

These types of online uses do not follow the rules of college term papers from 1976 (1966?). That's like saying paper charts are better because you used them in 1985. It was a different time with different rules for a different environment.
Does the "fair use" doctrine allow students to make limited copies of another's work for educational purposes? Yes (although without attribution, still plagiarism (which is an ethical problem, not a legal one)).

Does the "fair use" doctrine allow a commercial enterprise to copy a competitor's content for its own benefit? Generally, no.
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Old 08-10-2016, 03:06 PM   #51
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Median, average, doesn't matter. That bunch crashed their boats early on and don't post to AC.
You could have crashed your boat early on and still post to AC.
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Old 08-10-2016, 03:36 PM   #52
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Does the "fair use" doctrine allow a commercial enterprise to copy a competitor's content for its own benefit? Generally, no.
I think a reading of fair use would be in order. Or just consider Jon Stewart's use of Fox News broadcasts - there's a direct use of a competitor's content for their own benefit. There's no close-wording. They re-broadcasting the actual Fox broadcast. And yet, Fox couldn't go after the Comedy Channel for copyright/DMCA.

So if a factual description about a physical area are similar but are then expanded upon and commented upon, isn't that fair use by the same means? Again, read the fair use page before responding.

It's sort of even worse that a fact cannot be copyrighted as mentioned multiple times in this thread already.
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Old 08-10-2016, 03:40 PM   #53
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Regardless of how this has been handled, I think Kayley's posts are pretty blatant infringements of the Douglas book. But only the holders of that copyright are in a position to complain about it. DMCA doesn't really change copyright laws or fair use - it more provides a procedure for challenges, and perhaps most importantly makes it clear that the Kayley is responsible for her writings, not AC. And it provides a mechanism to compel AC to reveal the identity of the whoever is being challenged.

Hopefully what this thread WILL accomplish is a wake up call to Kayley and others who might be tempted to cut and paste into AC from other writings.
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Old 08-10-2016, 03:53 PM   #54
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Does the "fair use" doctrine allow students to make limited copies of another's work for educational purposes? Yes (although without attribution, still plagiarism (which is an ethical problem, not a legal one)).

Does the "fair use" doctrine allow a commercial enterprise to copy a competitor's content for its own benefit? Generally, no.
To the students cited above, no that is not part of the "fair use" doctrine, although educational efforts can be termed fair use, but there is an entirely different exception granted for most education. As to the commercial enterprise copying competitor, that also isn't what this is about as no one is saying AC copied.

Now the facts of fair us. Whoops....there are none really as courts fight every day over them. However, there are four factors that are weighed.

1. Purpose and Character. This is the commercial vs. non-commercial, advancing knowledge vs. not section.

2. Nature of the original work. Facts and ideas can't be copyrighted. Films of historic events have not had copyrights upheld. The merits of allowing freely available information and it's usefulness can make it fair use.

3. Amount and Substantiality. The amount of the total work used. If you quote a few hundred words out of a book, generally that is still fair use.

4. Effect on Value. Harm. Has the value of the copyrighted work been lowered. This is typical of most civil law and damages in that the burden of proof is on the copyright owner. It's very difficult. If I were to quote without attribution a large part of a guide here on TF, it would not be in direct violation of this factor. It wouldn't directly lower the value of the original. TF isn't a substitute for a cruising guide. People don't weigh TF vs. a cruising guide. TF is not a substitute for a guide. Then there is indirect. That's typically more in licensing. If I quote from one source that is in the business of licensing it's information.

Now you put all four of these together and then try to figure it out. Spend a few years in court fighting about it. Then if you win, try to assess the damages. Two lawyers won't agree. Two judges won't agree. Appeals courts often overturn lower courts and then a still higher court might overturn them.

There was no copyright violation by any reasonable evidence. Whether there was any inappropriate act or ethical or more violation, that is each person's opinion.

Was the guidebook harmed by any of this? I can't imagine so. Have they published since 2007? That's the last I see and it's available in paper for $69.95. I'd never heard of it until today. I have to tell you too if it was currently being published, I'd be less inclined to buy it, not because of AC, but because of all this thread and all their supporters have stirred up. They're likely hurt by Kindle and by the internet. I'd say complain to Amazon and Al Gore. Seems like a lot of consternation over a lot of old information from multiple sources. I didn't even realize until just now this was all ancient history. Go after Conde Nast next. I found they have "Exploring Southeast Alaska's Coast." That would certainly seem close enough to target.
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Old 08-10-2016, 04:44 PM   #55
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Much ado about nothing.

Jeffrey, congratulations on creating something new and working your butt off to make it a success.

PS. I rarely use AC but I admire people who get off their A## and do something.
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Old 08-10-2016, 07:27 PM   #56
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Much ado about nothing.

Jeffrey, congratulations on creating something new and working your butt off to make it a success.

PS. I rarely use AC but I admire people who get off their A## and do something.
It's as if there's an objection to free enterprise, to the profit motive. Yes, Jeffrey is in it for profit. Why wouldn't he be. I have a feeling most boats on this site were paid for by profits in the free enterprise system. A few paid for by tax dollars. It's as if being successful is some plague.
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Old 08-10-2016, 07:58 PM   #57
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It's as if there's an objection to free enterprise, to the profit motive. Yes, Jeffrey is in it for profit. Why wouldn't he be. I have a feeling most boats on this site were paid for by profits in the free enterprise system. A few paid for by tax dollars. It's as if being successful is some plague.
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Old 08-10-2016, 08:35 PM   #58
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Much ado about nothing.

Jeffrey, congratulations on creating something new and working your butt off to make it a success.

PS. I rarely use AC but I admire people who get off their A## and do something.
Obviously you don't get it. If you've ever been plagiarized you wouldn't think it's much ado about nothing. Intellectual property is at issue. Not whether someone is a success or not.

Furthermore, I don't believe Jeff created AC to be a site for copying other people's work. It really is a great idea for a crowd sourced information site and a lot of boaters love it. The problem is quality control of information and where it comes from. Very difficult to do the larger AC gets.
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Old 08-10-2016, 08:47 PM   #59
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Obviously you don't get it. If you've ever been plagiarized you wouldn't think it's much ado about nothing. Intellectual property is at issue. Not whether someone is a success or not.

Furthermore, I don't believe Jeff created AC to be a site for copying other people's work. It really is a great idea for a crowd sourced information site and a lot of boaters love it. The problem is quality control of information and where it comes from. Very difficult to do the larger AC gets.
My website articles and survey formats have been plagiarized often, but I actually have a life and don't care.

Never ever, ever believe anything you read. My younger son is somewhat of a sports celebrity and has often been interviewed for various sports magazines and TV shows. In his earlier years I was present at all his interiews. What a load of crap they printed. He never said half of the things they quoted him as saying. Get a life and move on.
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Old 08-10-2016, 08:51 PM   #60
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Jeffrey,

Yes I do live here (Alaska) and the only goats on islands in SE Alaska are on Baranof and Revillagigedo. Those goats were introduced by ADF&G as were the ones on Kodiak Island. Next Kayley's posts are dated in July of 2014 the same year I was in the same places. If her posts are from logs 20 years ago, then they shouldn't be dated as if they were current. I don't have a dog in the plagiarism argument. I do care about accuracy.

Tom
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