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Old 12-28-2010, 05:23 PM   #21
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

Quote:
JD wrote:

*
O C Diver wrote:
Thanks JD! Looked at the Hatteras LRC 42. With the twin DD they are very thirsty. Manufacturer claims best efficiency of 1.3 MPG at 7 knotts. Hoping to cover lots of miles in the next 10 years, so fuel efficiency is important.

Thanks!

Ted

__________________________________________________ ________

Ted,

I thought you said re power would not be a problem.. Those Hats with new engines might be cool.
*

*

JD, you are right, I have considered repowering a bargain boat to gain reliability / fuel efficiency. Doing a single engine from say a Lehman to something more efficient / appropriate size wise makes all kinds of sense. In this case, replacing 2 engines at twice the price (of one engine) will likely not half the fuel consumption. $30K to $40K in replacing 2 functional engines will likely take 20K to 30K miles to offset for the fuel savings to equal the cost.

As a side note, I am considered converting a twin screw sedan trawler with a full hollow keel to a single screw. Many of the Taiwan boat builders didn't significantly modify there single screw hulls when installing twins.

Ted

*
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Old 12-28-2010, 10:44 PM   #22
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

Woodsong,
Thanks for the kind words. OC the only teak decks on my boat are the aft and side decks (all covered), removed the for deck last year.
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1983.../United-States
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Old 12-29-2010, 04:21 AM   #23
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

IF the price were OK a left coast boat could be delivered on her own bottom.

The breeze blows mostly from Alaska to Panama so no wave bashing or trip 2/3 of the way to Hawaii for a favorable breeze.

Panama can waste a few days , but from there to Maine its not a big deal.
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Old 12-29-2010, 08:48 AM   #24
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

Quote:
bobofthenorth wrote:

*
We just bought a 30 year old 43 Defever so the search is fresh in my mind.* Along the way Peter Leech who used to be a partner in Grand Yachts in Coal Harbour recommended that we buy a Bayliner.* Having called their runabouts Baylurkers all my life we couldn't get our heads around the idea and frankly never took him seriously but he was dead serious.* His logic was good too and may be particularly applicable to the OP's budget.* In the mid 100k range he could move into a very current model boat and there is no doubt that the suite of features on a large run production boat like a Baylurker is impressive.* With so many of them out there the problems on a particular model are likely well known and there may be workarounds or solutions.* We couldn't bring ourselves to buy one but that doesn't make them wrong for everybody.
*

*



*

*

The truth of the matter is that you simply cannot get more bang for your buck than the Bayliner 4588 or her newer sister, the 4788. *The 4588 was built circa 1985 to 1993. *The 4788 from 1994 til they became meridian...the meridian 490 is the exact same hull and layout as the 4788. *There are several differences between the 45 and the 47....45 has prop pockets, shafts a little beefier on the 47, 47 has 2' extra in the salon but cockpit and everything else same size, helm layout modernized on the 47, etc. *They are both nearly the same boat though. *While they are not "trawlers" they get nearly the same fuel economy, particularly the 4588. *The 45 is usually powered by twin 220hp hino diesels. *Rock solid engines, just not as many of them around, but very solid performers. *They will give you a combined fuel burn of 2.8 GPH hour for BOTH engines so 1,200 RPM, 7 knots, 2.8 GPH total. *Pretty darn good for a twin screw boat in the 45' range and probably better than those running twin cats, cummins, etc.

Personally, I prefer the 45 over the 47, or, actually, I much more prefer the 1994-1996 4788's. *Reason being is that the older models have more teak and I think a more classic look to the interior. *Up until 1996 and through 1996, they built the 45/47 with the aft bulkhead to the salon from the cockpit with teak and it looks nice but also protected from the elements pretty well. *From 1997 on they switched to no exterior teak at all and dumbed down the galley to white cabinet faces which I don't like as much. *The 1994-1996 models still had the teak but also had the extra 2' space and other 47' construction upgrades, as well as switching from hino diesels to cummins which are more well known engines no matter where you travel.

From a resale perspective, the 45/47's are extremely, extremely popular, sell well, retain their value well, and are well received and enjoy a good reputation, unlike some of the smaller bayliners. *The 38 sedan is a nice looking boat with a good layout as well but I much prefer the 45 or 47. *I have heard very, very few (if any??) stories of the windows having major leaks. *No doubt about it, our old trawlers are known to have a lot more leaks than the larger bayliners.

If a true pilothouse style cruising boat in the mid 45' range with good layout, good value, easier resale, good handling, and good fuel economy is what you want, you are going to be hard pressed to find more boat for your money than the bayliner 4588 or newer 4788. *I have crawled around all over the 45's and 47's and I find them to be excellent boats for the money and hold up very well. *We were actually actively shopping for a 45 or 47 bayliner when I stumbled upon our trawler which we subsequently fell in love with. *We were drawn to the 45/47 due to having 3 staterooms which was originally one of our stronger preferences since we have 2 kids and they could have had their own rooms but that was more of a want than a need for us at this point.

*

Attached is a copy of the performance chart/fuel burn for the 220 Hinos. *Fuel burn is for both engines combined, not just one engine. *Several owners of the 45 with this power plant have confirmed the accuracy of the chart.
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Old 12-29-2010, 09:58 AM   #25
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

*
O C Driver, what make you think the bottom needs to be peeled and re glassed?* Most boats have blisters of some sort.* As long as the blisters are under 10 cents and some 25 cents there may be nothing to worry about. The might be surface blisters.* The Eagle has a few blisters the size of dime and quarters which, that I pop, sand down and epoxy, not a big deal.* So have a survey done.* If you own a boat your will have to leaner to epoxy and paint at some time.* Its not that hard its like mixing cake batter and dry walling with some sanding.* I have epoxy and additives on board all the time, fixing and repairing things. I would think it would be cheaper than repowering?* ****


*
Teak decks have a back reputation because the owners have not take maintained them.* Teak decks give plenty of warning sings, bungs missing/popping up, crack between the calking and the teak strip, maybe some warping.* If teak decks are maintained just like other parts of the boat they will last.* So again have a surveyor take a look as the decks might be sound, and just need some TLC. **The Eagle has teak decks which I do yearly maintenance on, replacing bungs that have popped up, re caulking the seams and applying Dayles SeaFin each fall.* 30 year old deck with no leaks.* Its the past owners fault no the teak decks.


*
So I would at least take a closer look, as most boats that age and price range are going to have some problems.* If interest have a quick out of water survey done.* Some of the surveys I have had done last about 5 minutes, and one time he did not even get out of the car.* Buy the boat you want.
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Old 12-29-2010, 10:12 AM   #26
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

Tony,
I agree. Not only bang for buck but I like the boats. Way too big and expensive for me but I have always admired their looks especially from a short distance. They are an extremely well balanced boat visually. Otherwise I don't know. Never seen one out of the water. We met some folks aboard one at Point Baker * ...the Jericho. They ran about 9 or 10 knots
(made a big bow wave) but I really liked the boat. The view from the wheelhouse is great. On the attachment Tony posted there is a column marked "percentage of fuel burned". This can be directly converted into engine load. Wish I could see that on all/many boats. Gph is almost always heavily tainted w much running at less than cruising speed.
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Old 12-29-2010, 11:10 AM   #27
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

Quote:
Phil Fill wrote:

*
*


O C Driver, what make you think the bottom needs to be peeled and re glassed?Most boats have blisters of some sort.As long as the blisters are under 10 cents and some 25 cents there may be nothing to worry about. The might be surface blisters.The Eagle has a few blisters the size of dime and quarters which, that I pop, sand down and epoxy, not a big deal.So have a survey done.If you own a boat your will have to leaner to epoxy and paint at some time.Its not that hard its like mixing cake batter and dry walling with some sanding.I have epoxy and additives on board all the time, fixing and repairing things. I would think it would be cheaper than repowering?
*


Teak decks have a back reputation because the owners have not take maintained them.Teak decks give plenty of warning sings, bungs missing/popping up, crack between the calking and the teak strip, maybe some warping.If teak decks are maintained just like other parts of the boat they will last.So again have a surveyor take a look as the decks might be sound, and just need some TLC. The Eagle has teak decks which I do yearly maintenance on, replacing bungs that have popped up, re caulking the seams and applying Dayles SeaFin each fall.30 year old deck with no leaks.Its the past owners fault no the teak decks.
*


So I would at least take a closer look, as most boats that age and price range are going to have some problems.If interest have a quick out of water survey done.Some of the surveys I have had done last about 5 minutes, and one time he did not even get out of the car.Buy the boat you want.

*
Hi Phil,

I did not say I thought any of the boats (KK42) that I looked at needed to be peeled and reglassed (certainly not something I could determine). My concern was that I might have to based on 4 of these boats (that I'm aware of) that needed to be done. Think it may have been relative to moisture going through the thin outer fiberglass layer into the balsa core. I am familiar with blister repair. However, when blisters allow water to enter the core, well that's becomes a much bigger issue.

I understand the proper maintenance of a teak deck and the revarnishing of other exterior woods on a boat. You need to be able to appreciate the value relative to the maintenance. I used to own a steel charter boat. In the commercial boating world they say, "Glass is fast but Steel is real". The cost of "real" among other things, is chasing rust. You had better like to sand blast and paint. Decided the time cost of "reel" was too high for me. My current charter boat had a fiberglass over 1 1/2" plywood deck that rotted from underneath. Knew it when I bought the boat. Tore out the old deck and replaced it with 1/4" aluminum marine alloy plate. Then had that covered by Line-X with 1/4" tan spray bed liner. Zero maintenance for 8 years now in a 90+ trip per year charter environment. My point is this, I see no aesthetic value to teak decks.* Why do I want a hobby of maintaining a liability that holds no value to me. Given a choice all (most) of the wood will be on the inside of my boat.

Ted
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Old 12-29-2010, 12:03 PM   #28
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

Quote:
O C Diver wrote:

*.......Think it may have been relative to moisture going through the thin outer fiberglass layer into the balsa core. I am familiar with blister repair. However, when blisters allow water to enter the core, well that's becomes a much bigger issue.

Ted:* Early Krogens*had PVC foam below the water line.* The only place they*used end-grain balsa-core was in*pilot house and boat deck.* The earlier models used plywood on the boat decks.* I'm not sure about the early*pilot houses though.* Hobo was built in*1987.* The pilot house and bridge deck use*a*closed cell PVC sandwich core.

Water intrusion into PVC core by itself is not an issue.* One of the problems with cored hulls that have had water intrusion*is if the boat has been stored on the hard, in freezing conditions.* The expansion and contraction can cause de-lamination.* This is easy to determine during a survey.* And yes, some of the 42's had or have*blister problems, but as you know*blisters are not unique to Krogens.*

Larry/Lena
Hobo KK42
Zihuatanejo, MX
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Old 12-29-2010, 01:10 PM   #29
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

Quote:
Larry M wrote:

*
O C Diver wrote:

.......Think it may have been relative to moisture going through the thin outer fiberglass layer into the balsa core. I am familiar with blister repair. However, when blisters allow water to enter the core, well that's becomes a much bigger issue.
Ted: Early Krogens had PVC foam below the water line. The only place they used end-grain balsa-core was in pilot house and boat deck. The earlier models used plywood on the boat decks. I'm not sure about the early pilot houses though. Hobo was built in 1987. The pilot house and bridge deck use a closed cell PVC sandwich core.

Water intrusion into PVC core by itself is not an issue. One of the problems with cored hulls that have had water intrusion is if the boat has been stored on the hard, in freezing conditions. The expansion and contraction can cause de-lamination. This is easy to determine during a survey. And yes, some of the 42's had or have blister problems, but as you know blisters are not unique to Krogens.

Larry/Lena
Hobo KK42
Zihuatanejo, MX
*

Hi Larry, yes you are correct they are PVC cores not Balsa, my mistake. Never got the full explanation of the need to peel these 4 boats. Your explanation of delamination caused by freezing seems plausible as 3 of these boats are in the Northeast USA.

Realy like the KK42s. Center island berth master with a single head configuration was the model I was interested in.

Ted

*
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Old 12-29-2010, 04:49 PM   #30
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

They are rare, but Marine Trader made a 34 Pilothouse....pretty damn neat boat. I just searched YW and did not see any available. But at one point a while back, there were 3 on there. They are "widebodies" so no side decks.

A boat I have been watching for a couple of years now is this one...and IG36 Europa. Don't know what is wrong with it because it hasn't sold and they keep dropping the price.....but it sure looks nice on paper.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990.../United-States
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Old 12-29-2010, 05:14 PM   #31
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Pilothouse Trawlers

Quote:
Baker wrote:

They are rare, but Marine Trader made a 34 Pilothouse....pretty damn neat boat. I just searched YW and did not see any available. But at one point a while back, there were 3 on there. They are "widebodies" so no side decks.

A boat I have been watching for a couple of years now is this one...and IG36 Europa. Don't know what is wrong with it because it hasn't sold and they keep dropping the price.....but it sure looks nice on paper.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990.../United-States
Was looking at that boat wondering the same thing. Looks like a Krylon make over in the engine room. For those not familiar with the concept, it's using cans of spray paint to cover rust and corrosion instead of properly cleaning and repainting. The Galley looks really small. Then there is the twin 135 Lehmans in a 36' boat. Will be heading to FL in January. May have to go take a look.

Ted

*


-- Edited by O C Diver on Wednesday 29th of December 2010 06:18:16 PM
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Old 12-29-2010, 05:16 PM   #32
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

Ted, let me know what you find if you do. I have been tempted to call the broker and ask "what's up". But not at that stage yet.
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Old 12-29-2010, 05:23 PM   #33
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

What Bob said. But Peter was my shelter neighbour for about the last 10 years, where he kept his Bayliner. He definitely practiced what he preached. All of his boats were "Billabong" acknowledging his down under roots. When I first met him, Billabong was a GB 36, as his brokerage had just acquired the GB brokerage. He moved up in GBs, and sold a ton of them. When he retired, he sold his Oceanis 44 and bought the Bayliner. He has retired from boating now, having sold the Bayliner in 2010.
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Old 12-29-2010, 05:34 PM   #34
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

Quote:
O C Diver wrote:Then there is the twin 135 Lehmans in a 36' boat.
Can't answer the twins vs singles question for you as that's a decision you'll have to make based on your own requirements.* But the one thing the FL120s and 135s have going for them is they are pretty narrow engines.* We have two FL120s in the engine room of our GB36, plus an Onan MDJE,which is not a small generator, but while things are tight they are not unmanageable in terms of access.* There is sufficient room outboard of the engines for even me, at 6'3" and 250 pounds, to sit.* The issue is more in the getting there than in the being there.* There are battery boxes to get over and the space outboard of the starboard engine has some holding tank plumbing in it that makes it tricky to get around the front of the engine.

A single engine in anything makes for pretty nice engine access unless the engine space is really cramped to begin with.* But if a 36' boat has a decent size engine compartment, and if the plumbing, batteries, seacocks, etc. are laid out in such a way as to not be in the way, a pair of Lehman straight-sixes don't take up as much room as one might think.



*
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Old 12-29-2010, 08:02 PM   #35
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

Quote:
Baker wrote:

They are rare, but Marine Trader made a 34 Pilothouse....pretty damn neat boat. I just searched YW and did not see any available. But at one point a while back, there were 3 on there. They are "widebodies" so no side decks.

A boat I have been watching for a couple of years now is this one...and IG36 Europa. Don't know what is wrong with it because it hasn't sold and they keep dropping the price.....but it sure looks nice on paper.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990.../United-States
I agree- very nice looking Europa design trawler/sedan based on internet pictures.
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Old 12-29-2010, 08:20 PM   #36
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

Quote:
Marin wrote:

*
O C Diver wrote:Then there is the twin 135 Lehmans in a 36' boat.
Can't answer the twins vs singles question for you as that's a decision you'll have to make based on your own requirements. But the one thing the FL120s and 135s have going for them is they are pretty narrow engines. We have two FL120s in the engine room of our GB36, plus an Onan MDJE,which is not a small generator, but while things are tight they are not unmanageable in terms of access. There is sufficient room outboard of the engines for even me, at 6'3" and 250 pounds, to sit. The issue is more in the getting there than in the being there. There are battery boxes to get over and the space outboard of the starboard engine has some holding tank plumbing in it that makes it tricky to get around the front of the engine.

A single engine in anything makes for pretty nice engine access unless the engine space is really cramped to begin with. But if a 36' boat has a decent size engine compartment, and if the plumbing, batteries, seacocks, etc. are laid out in such a way as to not be in the way, a pair of Lehman straight-sixes don't take up as much room as one might think.



*

*

Hi* Marin, I am definitely a single engine guy. That said, I look at a 36 sedan trawler and can see it with a small pair of diesels.

Instead this particular boat with a pair of Lehman 135s, weighs 4,000+ pounds (20%) more, draws 5" more water, has to carry an extra 100 gallons of fuel, and appears to have Bennet trim tabs to get the* boat to trim, as compared to an equivalent 36 Marine Trader Sedan on the same site.

IMO, a pair of 60 HP yanmars (or equivolent) would weigh about the same as a single Lehman, be more than enough HP to cruise at 8 knotts without all the extra weight and trim issues.

If your going to put twins in a boat, doubling the same engine you use in a single engine boat, is at best lazy engineering and at worst ......could create a dog.

But this is just my opinion.
Ted

*
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Old 12-29-2010, 08:29 PM   #37
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

Quote:
O C Diver wrote:

*

If your going to put twins in a boat, doubling the same engine you use in a single engine boat, is at best lazy engineering and at worst ......could create a dog.

But this is just my opinion.
Ted

*

*



Out of all the boats out there that are available as twin OR single screw configurations, how many actually see a decrease in individual hp for the twin vs. single hp set up???? *99.999% of the time, twin set up is merely a duplication of the single engine power plant. *I agree with previous posts....makes no sense to have twin 120-135 hp engines on a 36-38' trawler when single screw has one 120-135hp engine!
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Old 12-29-2010, 08:32 PM   #38
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

Quote:
Woodsong wrote:

*
Baker wrote:

They are rare, but Marine Trader made a 34 Pilothouse....pretty damn neat boat. I just searched YW and did not see any available. But at one point a while back, there were 3 on there. They are "widebodies" so no side decks.

A boat I have been watching for a couple of years now is this one...and IG36 Europa. Don't know what is wrong with it because it hasn't sold and they keep dropping the price.....but it sure looks nice on paper.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990.../United-States
I agree- very nice looking Europa design trawler/sedan based on internet pictures.

*

Woodsong, I am not referring to the Europa design. *They actually built a true pilothouse designed boat....I hate to call it a raised pilothouse but I guess it really is. *There is a salong and galley and then a step(s) up to the pilothouse area. *I don't remember if it was open to the salon of if it is bulkheaded off. *It is a really neat boat and haven't seen many of them. *I just tried a google search and got nothing....I might have even got a virus for visiting some arcane website. *Anyway, do some looking around. *They are really cool boats....obviously suffering all of the ills of other MTs. *And Like I said above, they are widebodies so there are no side decks but it does make for a very roomy boat for a 34 footer. * It has a cockpit and then it has pilothouse doors to the forward side decks and bow.

*
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Old 12-29-2010, 08:33 PM   #39
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

Quote:
O C Diver wrote:

If your going to put twins in a boat, doubling the same engine you use in a single engine boat, is at best lazy engineering and at worst ......could create a dog.
This is a point that Eric keeps making and I think he's right with regards to displacement boat or any boat where the owner is NEVER going to want to cruise faster than about displacement speed.

BUT---- a lot of boaters want to go fast when they want to go fast and go slow economically when they want to go slow.* Best example I can give for our waters is the fellow who wants to get up to Desolation Sound in a day, then spend a week mucking about the various anchorages and harbors up there, and then run back here in a day.* At seven or eight knots it's a two or three day trip.

The only way to do what our guy wants to do at all efficiently is to use a boat with a semi-planing hull and sufficient power to run the boat at 15-18 knots or whatever, but then have engines that are happy enough to chug along at relatively low power settings using not much fuel for the rest of the week.* The ony way to get that is to put a couple of fairly powerful engines in that hull.

Hence the trend in GBs to put two of the "standard" engines in their semi-planing boats.* They can go fast(er) when the owner wants to and slow when he wants to.* Can't do that with a pair of little engines that together generate just enough power to move the boat efficiently at or near hull speed.
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Old 12-29-2010, 08:43 PM   #40
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RE: Pilothouse Trawlers

Quote:
Marin wrote:"Hence the trend in GBs to put two of the "standard" engines in their semi-planing boats.* They can go fast(er) when the owner wants to and slow when he wants to.* Can't do that with a pair of little engines that together generate just enough power to move the boat efficiently at or near hull speed."
And that pretty much sums up my philosophy in picking the right boat. Everything
else is fluff.

*
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