Picking a boat for overnights and long distance cruising (ICW, Great Loop)

[ben2go]

I have worked on a lot of I/Os. I agree they are best for freshwater. Assuming all parts and supplies are on hand, a tech with experience can rebuild the outboard part of an I/O in a day. A seal job would be about a half-day. The problem is, every time it's time for a seal job, there is some other part(s) that need to be repaired/replaced. While I like the idea of an I/O I would not own a boat with one that stays in the water regardless of fresh, salt, or brackish water. It would have to be a trailer queen.

 

[BandB]

I have worked on a lot of I/Os. I agree they are best for freshwater. Assuming all parts and supplies are on hand, a tech with experience can rebuild the outboard part of an I/O in a day. A seal job would be about a half-day. The problem is, every time it's time for a seal job, there is some other part(s) that need to be repaired/replaced. While I like the idea of an I/O I would not own a boat with one that stays in the water regardless of fresh, salt, or brackish water. It would have to be a trailer queen.

I owned 5 and they stayed in the water differing amounts. Before I lived on the lake, I had dry storage and wet storage. The boat was kept in enclosed dry storage when I wasn't using it for a couple of days and in wet storage when I was. I guess, in a way, that was the equivalent of trailering. Once we moved to the lake, they were kept in the water full time.

Now, while this lake was fresh water, it was often compared to salt for it's impact on drives due to an extremely high mineral content. The river flowed out of the mountains and two lakes above ours was considerably worse.

The key was regular maintenance. They were all serviced at least three or four times a year with thorough cleaning, including bottom cleaning, and all engine and drive maintenance. As a result, our 8 year old boat didn't show it's age at all when we sold it.

However, on the whole, boats kept in the water on our lake did age fast and outdrives showed their age, whether outboards or inboard-outboard. The last two boats I owned had Volvo Penta outdrives as they did handle the conditions slightly better than Mercruiser. I also should mention muskrats were common and very bad on bellows.

Now it's easy for one who wasn't there to say what they would do, but if you lived on the water, you'd keep your boat behind your home and you might have a lift but most would not. You'd have to get the hull cleaned regularly and the outdrives would show the conditions and you'd accept it all because that's the way things were. Call it the cost of boating where we were. That's why dry storage was so popular.

Now, one might ask about lifts at your docks. They have become more practical with the addition of free standing floating lifts like Harbor Hoist. Slip width is still a problem for many though. Prior to floating lifts like these, other lifts weren't practical due to the depth of the water making bottom supported units a problem as well as regulation doing so, and the fact most docks couldn't handle the weight to be dock attached. Regulation is still an issue but manageable.

Thing is you adapt to where you are and the norms there. We've never winterized but we would if we lived in Michigan. We had gas on the lake as that's all there was. We kept in dry storage when we drove to the lake but wet when we lived there. It's like all those who move their boats out of Florida for hurricane season. Well, if you live on the ICW in Florida, you don't do that.

Just one more areas of consideration in which the right boat is the one that fits the users needs, including location and waters of use and including budget, the best. There are no absolutes.

 

[Bryant]

Picking a boat

If you run your 4-stoke gas outboard boat at "trawler" speeds you will get comparable MPG to a diesel trawler. The catch is that most outboard powered boats are meant to go a lot faster than that and the temptation is usually too great not to take advantage of it. If you look at a Nimble Nomad or similar boat, they are powered with a fairly small outboard and are only designed for "trawler" speeds.

Another advantage of O/B power is that interior space on the boat is not taken up with an engine or two. This gives you more interior space which may mean you can get away with a smaller boat overall.

I have an O/B powered boat. My wife says we should get a bigger boat. However, after watching YouTube videos about doing maintenance on an inboard engine I'm loath to give up the ease of maintenance that my O/B allows.

Trust me, you don’t want to give up your outboard! I love the GB (when everything is working) but my C Dory 22 is such a pleasure to own and use.

 

[ben2go]

I owned 5 and they stayed in the water differing amounts. Before I lived on the lake, I had dry storage and wet storage. The boat was kept in enclosed dry storage when I wasn't using it for a couple of days and in wet storage when I was. I guess, in a way, that was the equivalent of trailering. Once we moved to the lake, they were kept in the water full time.

Now, while this lake was fresh water, it was often compared to salt for it's impact on drives due to an extremely high mineral content. The river flowed out of the mountains and two lakes above ours was considerably worse.

The key was regular maintenance. They were all serviced at least three or four times a year with thorough cleaning, including bottom cleaning, and all engine and drive maintenance. As a result, our 8 year old boat didn't show it's age at all when we sold it.

However, on the whole, boats kept in the water on our lake did age fast and outdrives showed their age, whether outboards or inboard-outboard. The last two boats I owned had Volvo Penta outdrives as they did handle the conditions slightly better than Mercruiser. I also should mention muskrats were common and very bad on bellows.

Now it's easy for one who wasn't there to say what they would do, but if you lived on the water, you'd keep your boat behind your home and you might have a lift but most would not. You'd have to get the hull cleaned regularly and the outdrives would show the conditions and you'd accept it all because that's the way things were. Call it the cost of boating where we were. That's why dry storage was so popular.

Now, one might ask about lifts at your docks. They have become more practical with the addition of free standing floating lifts like Harbor Hoist. Slip width is still a problem for many though. Prior to floating lifts like these, other lifts weren't practical due to the depth of the water making bottom supported units a problem as well as regulation doing so, and the fact most docks couldn't handle the weight to be dock attached. Regulation is still an issue but manageable.

Thing is you adapt to where you are and the norms there. We've never winterized but we would if we lived in Michigan. We had gas on the lake as that's all there was. We kept in dry storage when we drove to the lake but wet when we lived there. It's like all those who move their boats out of Florida for hurricane season. Well, if you live on the ICW in Florida, you don't do that.

Just one more areas of consideration in which the right boat is the one that fits the users needs, including location and waters of use and including budget, the best. There are no absolutes.

Trust me, you don’t want to give up your outboard! I love the GB (when everything is working) but my C Dory 22 is such a pleasure to own and use.

My life with OBs has been bad, but they were older 2 stroke OBs from the '60s-'80s. I've been abord a few boats with Hondas and one with a Yamaha. All four strokes.

 

[ssobol]

My life with OBs has been bad, but they were older 2 stroke OBs from the '60s-'80s. I've been abord a few boats with Hondas and one with a Yamaha. All four strokes.

Modern O/Bs are like your car engine. Turn the key and it starts. Change the oil once in awhile.

 

[BandB]

Modern O/Bs are like your car engine. Turn the key and it starts. Change the oil once in awhile.

Like all boats, most modern outboards get very little usage. High usage center consoles do reveal they're a long way from car engines. You talk about diesels and their lives in tens of thousands of hours. It's equally difficult to get a fix on outboards but the number I've heard thrown out most before at least a rebuild if not replacement is 4000 hours on an outboard, although I've heard 2000 hours as well. I've also heard 1000 hours.

Bass boats and center consoles often get high hours. I knew bass fishermen putting 400 hours a year on their boats and I know center consoles putting on 500 hours or more. We have a center console for a group of our employees and it gets about 220 hours a year. It's now nearing 1000 hours or so and we're debating new engines vs. new boat and engines.

Doing the loop with outboards would put probably be 400-500 hours. The would mean at least three or four servicings during the trip.

 

[ssobol]

Like all boats, most modern outboards get very little usage. High usage center consoles do reveal they're a long way from car engines. You talk about diesels and their lives in tens of thousands of hours. It's equally difficult to get a fix on outboards but the number I've heard thrown out most before at least a rebuild if not replacement is 4000 hours on an outboard, although I've heard 2000 hours as well. I've also heard 1000 hours.

Bass boats and center consoles often get high hours. I knew bass fishermen putting 400 hours a year on their boats and I know center consoles putting on 500 hours or more. We have a center console for a group of our employees and it gets about 220 hours a year. It's now nearing 1000 hours or so and we're debating new engines vs. new boat and engines.

Doing the loop with outboards would put probably be 400-500 hours. The would mean at least three or four servicings during the trip.

The diesels that are referred to when talking about how diesels can run for many thousands of hours are the older lower tech types. Modern diesels that try to get as much power out of the smallest package usually have much shorter lifetimes than a "classic" diesel engine. A modern diesel will get 8-10 times the hp out of the same space as an older tech version. Certain tradeoffs have to be made to accomplish this, including more complexity, higher pressures and speeds, and lighter components. None of these are conducive to longer life.

I expect that doing the loop in a diesel boat will take more hours (because the boat is usually slower) and more servicing (because the diesel service interval is less) than an O/B.

On your boats with 1000 hrs on the engines that you are contemplating replacing, are there any indications of problems with the engines or their performance that are leading you to replace them or is it just because they have reached "X" number of hours (even though you seem to admit that you're not sure at what hours they need to be replaced)?

In my case, I'll only consider an engine replacement when the current engine gives me a reason to do so, not because it's reached an arbitrary number of hours on the clock.

 

[Vadim]

I would stay away from gasoline engines boats. Specially because you planning at some point to do ICW and other long distance cruises. I had Carver Mariner 330 powered by twin Crusaders 350, she was a fine boat for what she was designed a weekend boat, nothing more. Now I have 36' Island Gypsy a Classic Long Range Trawler with twin Ford Lehman's SP-225's. No comparing. Handling, Range, Cost of Operation, Comfort and much much more. Get the boat that will serve your needs, stay away from gas engines, v-drives, I/O. Look for naturally aspirated diesel engines boats or continuous duty turbo diesels like my ford lehman's SP-225. Good Luck!

 

[BandB]

The diesels that are referred to when talking about how diesels can run for many thousands of hours are the older lower tech types. Modern diesels that try to get as much power out of the smallest package usually have much shorter lifetimes than a "classic" diesel engine. A modern diesel will get 8-10 times the hp out of the same space as an older tech version. Certain tradeoffs have to be made to accomplish this, including more complexity, higher pressures and speeds, and lighter components. None of these are conducive to longer life.

I expect that doing the loop in a diesel boat will take more hours (because the boat is usually slower) and more servicing (because the diesel service interval is less) than an O/B.

On your boats with 1000 hrs on the engines that you are contemplating replacing, are there any indications of problems with the engines or their performance that are leading you to replace them or is it just because they have reached "X" number of hours (even though you seem to admit that you're not sure at what hours they need to be replaced)?

In my case, I'll only consider an engine replacement when the current engine gives me a reason to do so, not because it's reached an arbitrary number of hours on the clock.

First outboards I've ever owned. Engineer who maintains them says they're still in great shape. Haven't had any failure in use. Just thinking ahead as current lead times on some center consoles is extremely lengthy right now.

Now, we're the exception, but we average greater speed on the loop with twin diesels.

I don't agree with your speculation on today's diesels. I do agree that with larger horsepower comes challenges but there are still low horsepower and detuned engines. Commercial users are getting more time out of the current generation of engines. Common Rail Engines show longevity versus their predecessors.

 

[Vadim]

The diesels that are referred to when talking about how diesels can run for many thousands of hours are the older lower tech types. Modern diesels that try to get as much power out of the smallest package usually have much shorter lifetimes than a "classic" diesel engine. A modern diesel will get 8-10 times the hp out of the same space as an older tech version. Certain tradeoffs have to be made to accomplish this, including more complexity, higher pressures and speeds, and lighter components. None of these are conducive to longer life.

I expect that doing the loop in a diesel boat will take more hours (because the boat is usually slower) and more servicing (because the diesel service interval is less) than an O/B.

On your boats with 1000 hrs on the engines that you are contemplating replacing, are there any indications of problems with the engines or their performance that are leading you to replace them or is it just because they have reached "X" number of hours (even though you seem to admit that you're not sure at what hours they need to be replaced)?

In my case, I'll only consider an engine replacement when the current engine gives me a reason to do so, not because it's reached an arbitrary number of hours on the clock.

I am sorry but you are totally misleading forum mates about diesels engine's. Diesels are not the same. They are light duty car like VW's marine engines and industrial continuous heavy duty engines like Ford Lehman and MTU's, CAT's and new John Deere Marine engines. If what you saying is right, then all this fine trawler makers like Nordhavn, Flemming, Krogen and many others are just wrong by putting diesel engines in their boats.
Totally do not want to offend you, but what you wrote is not accurate.

 

[ssobol]

I am sorry but you are totally misleading forum mates about diesels engine's. Diesels are not the same. They are light duty car like VW's marine engines and industrial continuous heavy duty engines like Ford Lehman and MTU's, CAT's and new John Deere Marine engines. If what you saying is right, then all this fine trawler makers like Nordhavn, Flemming, Krogen and many others are just wrong by putting diesel engines in their boats.
Totally do not want to offend you, but what you wrote is not accurate.

I suppose that can be true of larger boats that have the room for bigger, less power dense diesel engines. But I was comparing engines on boats where there is more or less an equivalent choice between a diesel motor and a O/B. For instance a newer Ranger Tug 27 w/OB vs. the older one with the diesel. Same with the R-23 and R-31/C-302. In the case of the RF-246, at one time you could get it with either an I/O diesel, an I/O gas, or 1 or 2 gas O/Bs, buyer's choice (now it is just O/B, so there must be something to them). These boat use small/light relatively high hp diesels. Some people who buy these size boats may think that because it is a diesel it is bulletproof because they hear that diesels run for "tens of thousands" of hours. Whereas a gas O/B may be just as reliable and it may also be lower maintenance and is certainly easier to work on.

No one would think of fitting a 50' Nordhaven with an O/B vs. a diesel. A gas engine is not an available option.

 

[Vadim]

I suppose that can be true of larger boats that have the room for bigger, less power dense diesel engines. But I was comparing engines on boats where there is more or less an equivalent choice between a diesel motor and a O/B. For instance a newer Ranger Tug 27 w/OB vs. the older one with the diesel. Same with the R-23 and R-31/C-302. In the case of the RF-246, at one time you could get it with either an I/O diesel, an I/O gas, or 1 or 2 gas O/Bs, buyer's choice (now it is just O/B, so there must be something to them). These boat use small/light relatively high hp diesels. Some people who buy these size boats may think that because it is a diesel it is bulletproof because they hear that diesels run for "tens of thousands" of hours. Whereas a gas O/B may be just as reliable and it may also be lower maintenance and is certainly easier to work on.
No one would think of fitting a 50' Nordhaven with an O/B vs. a diesel. A gas engine is not an available option.

Again if I may say. If you do apple's to apple's gas vs diesel. Diesel engine in a car or boat will outperform and outlast gas engine. Audi use to use their TDI's in 24 hour LeMans racing and won many times. Diesel engine motor resource is allot higher than gas engine. Diesel engine would have a least 1/3 less moving parts than gas engine. In both boat and auto industries it is more expensive upgrade to have diesel vs gas. And one more thing it is safe it does not explode like gas. As far as OB well that problem was solved by introducing diesel OB last year or two years ago.
https://www.oxe-diesel.com/
https://youtu.be/ek3rP0EiV_k
https://youtu.be/-jeMYeqUhmk

 

[BandB]

And one more thing it is safe it does not explode like gas. As far as OB well that problem was solved by introducing diesel OB last year or two years ago.
https://www.oxe-diesel.com/
https://youtu.be/ek3rP0EiV_k
https://youtu.be/-jeMYeqUhmk

Now you're the one using inflammatory comments. Explode? Yes, Gas is more prone to fires but there are hundreds of thousands of gas boats used safely and I read comments like the "explode" from diesel owners who likely are carrying propane tanks and there are far more propane tank explosions than gas. Also, the vast majority of diesel trawler owners are carrying gas powered dinghies and fuel for them, so if gas is really to be feared so badly, why do they do that?

As to diesel outboards, there have been some available for many years, not just one or two, and they've failed completely in gaining any real traction. Weight remains the primary issue. Secondary issue is there just isn't a pressing need as users are doing just fine with gas outboards. One day, perhaps.

 

[Vadim]

Now you're the one using inflammatory comments. Explode? Yes, Gas is more prone to fires but there are hundreds of thousands of gas boats used safely and I read comments like the "explode" from diesel owners who likely are carrying propane tanks and there are far more propane tank explosions than gas. Also, the vast majority of diesel trawler owners are carrying gas powered dinghies and fuel for them, so if gas is really to be feared so badly, why do they do that?

As to diesel outboards, there have been some available for many years, not just one or two, and they've failed completely in gaining any real traction. Weight remains the primary issue. Secondary issue is there just isn't a pressing need as users are doing just fine with gas outboards. One day, perhaps.

I am glad you agreeing with the rest.

 

[Boat]

Gasoline, natural gas, propane, butane, diesel, technically speaking, none of these are classified as explosives. So there. They burn only as fast as they can mix with air, oxygen. Stay away from explosives.

 

[Benthic2]

Can you define "outperform" ? That could mean get better mileage, higher top end, more torque, be less expensive to run, etc. I am pretty sure you don't mean "go faster". If that were true, Ferrari, Lamborgini and others of that class would be installing diesels.

 

[Gdavid]

Like all boats, most modern outboards get very little usage. High usage center consoles do reveal they're a long way from car engines. You talk about diesels and their lives in tens of thousands of hours. It's equally difficult to get a fix on outboards but the number I've heard thrown out most before at least a rebuild if not replacement is 4000 hours on an outboard, although I've heard 2000 hours as well. I've also heard 1000 hours.

Bass boats and center consoles often get high hours. I knew bass fishermen putting 400 hours a year on their boats and I know center consoles putting on 500 hours or more. We have a center console for a group of our employees and it gets about 220 hours a year. It's now nearing 1000 hours or so and we're debating new engines vs. new boat and engines.

Doing the loop with outboards would put probably be 400-500 hours. The would mean at least three or four servicings during the trip.

I wonder to what extent outboards have short engine lives due to how they are run. The big four strokes are very close in design to modern car engines yet (I suspect) they are run much harder. Not only are they always operating under load unlike a car engine but how much time do you spend with your car's engine at 3500 rpm or greater. I was talking with a friend this weekend who jointly owns a boat with his after in law, the FIL happened to be out on the boat at the time and texted to say the boat was sluggish and didn't reach the normal cruise rpm of 4600 rpm. I wouldn't run my car that hard or my I/O either. I think the habits of running old school 2 stroke outboards with their much feel moving parts has carried over to the newer 4 strokes and question how smart that is. The temptation to run 40-50 knots must be pretty strong if your boat is capable, even if it takes WOT.

 

[Vadim]

Can you define "outperform" ? That could mean get better mileage, higher top end, more torque, be less expensive to run, etc. I am pretty sure you don't mean "go faster". If that were true, Ferrari, Lamborgini and others of that class would be installing diesels.

Including go faster, like I wrote above Audi TDI LeMans team won multiple championships racing their diesel cars against Ferrari and Porsche and other Gas powered fine cars. As well as diesel powered trucks in the Paris - Dakar race. I am not against gas engines, I was correcting a forum mate who was not accurate in his statements.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_R10_TDI