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Old 12-12-2019, 08:59 PM   #1
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Perkins won’t start

Hello, I ran my 4.236 for about ten minutes today, ran fine, good oil pressure and water flow in exhaust
Hit the kill switch and it died. Tried to restart but only cranks. Not even one little bump at the first crank.
Cut off solenoid is functioning properly.
Sounds like it’s out of fuel but it seemed unlikely since it was just running. I know there is fuel in the tank.
I guess I need to see if there is fuel at one of the injectors.
Any suggestions are welcome.
Well I had to look.
No fuel to at least one injector.
Opened a bleed screw on the fuel distributor and get a bit of fuel there by using the small lever on the pump.
This engine and boat is new to me. I had a Massey Ferguson tractor with a smaller version of this Perkins. It had a lift pump on the starboard side.
This Perkins has a round pump with a small lever on the side. When I lift up on it it seems to have some resistance like my old lift pump had and I can hear fuel gurgling in the lines or the tank, not sure which.
So I there seems to be fuel going to it and on to the fuel distributor but not to the injectors. I guess I need to pull the fuel line on the outgoing side of the pump and see if that makes a mess.

Still, any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

I keep editing my own post but good news is if I need a new fuel pump I found one in the spare parts bin along with some other treasures.
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Old 12-13-2019, 01:19 AM   #2
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Obviously you checked the filters and ensured the pick up line from the tank is not blocked. I would disconnect the fuel pump solenoid, bleed the system and 'crack open' (loosen) 2 of the injectors and try starting it. Its very unlikely the timing has slipped.

The original fuel pump little lever, as you've found out by now, is very sore on your finger after a while. I have a mod that replaced the CAV filter with a 'spin on' and incorporates a push button fuel pump.
Let us know how you get on and I'll dig out the part number of the fuel filter mod.
Be methodical and don't get disheartened, they're a cracking motor so stick with it until you cure it.
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Old 12-13-2019, 06:33 AM   #3
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Agree with a full system bleed:
2 bleed screws on the secondary filter
2 bleed screws on the injection pump
crack open 2 nuts on top of the injection pump
crack open 2 nuts on the injector end.

Does the shut off solenoid move freely?
Tank and filter fuel valves open?

Something changed.
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Old 12-13-2019, 07:13 AM   #4
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If the pump were supplying enough fuel, there wouldn't be a gurgling -- there would be a quiet full squirting.

A shutoff valve could be closed and it could have been started and run 10 minutes on the fuel in the loop, but be unable to start with the resulting low pressure drippy spray pattern.

I've goofed after fuel filter changes and ran engine for at least 10 minutes before I saw smoke changes, then heard rough running, then shut down, realized problem, opened valves -- and couldnt restart without full bleed.

That pump will suck air in from all sorts of places it shouldn't if it is forced to pull a vacuum, but fuel can't fill it.

I also did the same when I put the gasket for my engines, 6.354's, fuel filter into the groove on the filter, covering the ports, instead of putting it up in the head.

Happy hunting!
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Old 12-13-2019, 07:33 AM   #5
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It sounds to me very much like the solenoid assuming you've got fuel in the tank.
When bleeding you only need to loosen the exit on the fuel filter, once you have fuel there move to the next filter, then only the returns pipe on the pump followed by 2 injector pipes.
For my money I would physically disconnect the solenoid until you you've got the engine running fine.

I've used these engines for years and the first thing I do is change the CAV sandwich type filter with a 'Spin-on' conversion kit.
This is available from ASAP supplies.co.uk and the part number is 302040 around £15.00.
Also buy a Drive Force CAV hand pump 1/2 inlet side, part number 302040 £4,26
You will also need to buy an longer banjo bolt.

If your rich and easily swayed you could buy a Racor unit for about £200 more, frankly I find them a waste of money, if they were good Perkins would fit them.

Change the old CAV sandwich filter head (2 bolts) and bin it, replace it with the new 'Spin-on' head, fit the Drive force pump to the inlet side of the pump using the long banjo bolt.
Fill the new 'Spin-on' filter with diesel and carefully screw it tight, now using the heel of your thumb press the fuel pump button until you feel it hard, then loosen 2 injector pipes, with someone turning over the motor pump vigorously until it starts, close the injectors and clean up any spilt fuel.
Put a good squirt of lemon scented washing up liquid into the bilge to break down any oil and take away the smell.

With practice you can, and I do, change the fuel filter and never need to bleed it.
You just run the engine warm, stop it, screw off the fuel filter, fill a new filter with clean diesel and fit carefully. start the motor on tick-over, she might miss a time or two but she'll keep running.
Good Luck.
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Old 12-13-2019, 07:53 AM   #6
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How does the shutdown work on this? Solenoid on side of pump or something that mechanically pull the shutdown lever near the throttle lever? If it has the solenoid on side of pump is it powered to run or powered to shut down? If powered to run make sure you are getting volts to terminal.

Also the solenoid can stick.

Not suspecting air as it was running fine immediately before shutdown. Thinking something is stuck or not getting volts.
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Old 12-13-2019, 09:22 AM   #7
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When you turn on the ignition the solenoid pushes the lever on top of the pump forward, and yes they sometimes stick.
If you disconnect the solenoid push rod the lever on top of the pump will be pulled forwards (there should be a spring there to keep it pulled forwards) and the engine can start.
To stop the engine move the lever on top of the pump rearwards.
Use contact cleaner to clean the electrical terminals and check for current and operation when the ignition key is turned off and on, if current is there and the solenoid doesn't work when you turn the ignition on/off then the solenoid is faulty.
You have 2 choices if the solenoid is faulty, fit a new solenoid or fit an old fashioned 'pull to stop engine' cable to stop the engine.
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Old 12-13-2019, 10:22 AM   #8
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Correct, solenoid moves forward to bow when Ignition is turned with spring tension and moves backward when the kill switch is depressed.
Actually as soon as engine dies and kill switch is released spring tension moves the arm back to the run position.
That works fine unless there is an niter all failure in the pump.
I suspected electrical as well as it was such a sudden death.
I pulled the fuel line off of the outgoing side of the fuel pump and activated the lift mechanism. This resulted in a a very slight flow
So I cranked it with the hose in a bucket and the result was very marginal.
I’m going to change the pump because I have a new one and lord knows how old the current pump is.

I need a new gasket though. I guess I could cut one out of something. It’s very thin.
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Old 12-13-2019, 10:36 AM   #9
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Probably air then, sounds like mechanical shutdown is working fine.

I have run into several CAV pumps that have been a devil to bleed.
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Old 12-13-2019, 11:03 AM   #10
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When you remove the lift pump pipes be careful you don't lose the little rubber inserts into the bilge.
Check also as some lift pumps have a gauze filter and it may be dirty.
Check all pipe connections are tight but don't overtighten them.
If you need a gasket get a piece of very thin cardboard and press it to the engine block when the pumps removed and you will see the outline, cut carefully with a pair of scissors, to punch the holes where the bolts go, place it on a hard surface and use a socket and give it a tap with a hammer. Use jointing paste when reassembling.
I still think it's something else as the engine was running fine and just stopped.

I once fitted a new Caterpillar filter/water separator and needed to join a copper '' pipe to a plastic metric, being keen I tightened it up like a good soldier, bled the engine and off we went.
Every time I passed through a lock the engine would idle for a few minutes and stop.
Re-bleed and carry on until the evening.
I checked and double checked every connection and found I'd distorted the copper pipe through enthusiastic overtightening and it allowed tiny bubbles of air to build up until there was enough air to stop the engine.
Moral of the story, doublecheck everything that you do is perfect, its the difference between an amateur and a professional.
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Old 12-13-2019, 01:11 PM   #11
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Well, I changed the pump because as I said earlier I have one. Had to make the gasket. I used some file folder material. Smeared moth sides with axle grease and installed. This is a two bolt pump and there is just a pump and the gasket to worry about.
Anyway I couldn’t get any prime at the pump so I backed up to the Racor. I thought to a to a fitting where a PO had had an electric pump plumbed in. It is either disabled or was used strictly for priming. Either way its condition doesn’t look to promising. . The fuel feed is coming from the top of the tank area instead of the bottom which I thought it should. Hard to tell as the fuel line disappears over the bulkhead.
The Racor is full , and the line feeding it from the tank dribbles fuel but the outgoing side produced nothing but a drip or two.
I have over a foot of fuel in the tank which is about half full.
If I wasn’t getting fuel before I’m certainly not now.
Time for a break.
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Old 12-13-2019, 07:29 PM   #12
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Turned out to be the Racor. Hunk in the check valve.
Thanks for all the help everyone.
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Old 12-13-2019, 10:16 PM   #13
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Well done you've found the problem but like all things it raises another.
I won't go off on a rant but I get so frustrated when fuel tanks are fitted and don't take the fuel feed from the very bottom of the tank, instead they go in through the top of the tank with a pipe which stops about an 1 1/2'' from the bottom, over years this allows a sediment build up in the bottom of the tank. Fuel is like fine wine, if stored long enough fine particles settle to the bottom of the bottle, in the case of fuel, your tank. If a bit of sediment gets in your fuel line it does exactly what yours has done, stops the engine.
I don't wish to be a doomsayer but if you want to have hassle free cruising in the future I would seriously look now at removing your tank over the winter for a thorough interior clean. Before re-installing I would put a fuel pick-up with a shut off valve right at the very bottom, under the tank if at all possible.
If you get any tiny particles when you refill they will automatically be drawn out and caught in your filters as they're meant to be.
You never see a car or truck stuck on the side of the road with a dirty fuel tank because they all draw from the bottom.
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Old 12-14-2019, 08:21 AM   #14
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I agree with that. For that very reason when I fitted my tanks, although they had the pickups from the top, I fitted the dip tubes (very careful measurements needed) so the dip tubes were 1/4" to 1/2" from the bottom of the tank. I knew that crud does slowly accumulate in tanks, and I wanted the filters to catch it. In over 10 years of use the bottom of the tanks are still shiny aluminum as viewed through the fill port.

I talked to the tank mfr during the build and they did not like the idea to put the draw port on the bottom. It also would have made install in the boat complicated and maybe leak issues. They talked me out of it. The dip tubes close to the bottom is "good enough".
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Old 12-14-2019, 09:47 AM   #15
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"Fuel is like fine wine, if stored long enough fine particles settle to the bottom of the bottle, in the case of fuel, your tank. " [/quote]

So the moral of this story is drink the wine and run your boat enough to let the filters do their job and clean out the muck... Just don't drink the wine and run the boat at the same time.....

"You never see a car or truck stuck on the side of the road with a dirty fuel tank because they all draw from the bottom.[/QUOTE]"

Bull.... The only fuel tanks that draw from the bottom are made in Australia. They do everything upside down.... Even then the tanks are made properly they just run them upside down....
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Old 12-15-2019, 01:50 AM   #16
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You hit the nail right on the head Ski, the boat builders have pre-conceived ideas because it takes a miniscule fraction of effort on their part.
In my lifetime working with atv's,trucks, plant and cars I've NEVER EVER had a leak issue with a single bottom mounted fuel take off and have the factual proof in several motor cruiser installations I've done which have perfectly clean interior tank bottoms.
Standard service intervals suffice and there's no need for fancy fuel polishing systems.
If you like 'big boys toys', or your a 'gadget man' who am I to spoil your fun.

Jeez Solly your walking a fine line there, if some of our Australian cousins heard that they'd make you stand the bar for a round of drinks, and it wouldn't be just be a frothy top, they'd want a Bundaberg rum chaser too !

The moral of your story is sound and I'll drink to that buddy.
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Old 12-15-2019, 09:52 AM   #17
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Irish I'd be happy to stand a drink with Aussies or Irishmen. Of course I'm "1 and done" but I can hold my own with anybody on the first one.

I've never seen a bottom draw tank. Maybe ABYC (US) boat standards don't permit it. I have heard of tank equalizing pipes that I guess would connect on the bottom. Cars and trucks here are all top draw as far as I know. No idea on motorcycles.
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Old 12-15-2019, 10:32 AM   #18
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Greetings,

Mr. S. All Volkswagen’s pre 1970, or so, were bottom outlet. Most motorcycles AFAIK are also bottom outlet as well as gravity feed.
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Old 12-15-2019, 10:40 AM   #19
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RMEMEMBER to drain the muffler after the 3rd failed start.
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Old 12-15-2019, 11:38 AM   #20
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RT Firefly's perfectly correct, and yes, the equalizing pipes do draw from the bottom and if you have one its simple to 'T' into it.
A bottom draw should always have a valve, preferably a lever type, for maintenance purposes (call it safety if you like).
Unfortunately many pen pushers who write the rules have no practical experience of removing sludged up tanks or of paying through the nose for a Racor fuel polishing system (ouch).

When engineers design an engine they take into account every tiny detail, don't you think that if Cat, Perkins, Detroit, Cummins etc wanted their diesels to run on finer micron sizes of fuel filtration in the same way they specify the exact type of engine oil that they wouldn't fit Racor as standard ?

The difference between an Irish group of lads drinking is that they usually throw in a 'kitty' when that's done they either 'top it up' or any money left over goes to the next social evening.
In our experience our Australian brothers on the other hand will accept a drink, but when its their 'shout' they usually buy their own, or go to the toilet to avoid paying, which the Irish find quite offensive.
Just different cultures I guess.
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