Perkins 6.354
- Thread starter Seachaser
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STB
Guru
Seachaser,
Something is going on with that $4400 number. I am still waiting for their call back. But, the price just doesn't make sense given the invoice I have in hand and what I hands-on know of the part needed to do the install.
I gave them the invoice number, my engine model number, and asked them to help me understand. It could be a simple mistake. It could also be that the price I have was a crazy good deal. It could also be -- something I fear (but think unlikely) -- that Bowman stopped making them and they only have what they have on the shelf. It could be a lot of things. I just don't know, yet.
In general, I try not to sweat something like this where the SS version is readily available for a couple of boat bucks. It a bit pricey, but it should be good for a couple of decades.
At any rate, let's see what TAD says.
Something is going on with that $4400 number. I am still waiting for their call back. But, the price just doesn't make sense given the invoice I have in hand and what I hands-on know of the part needed to do the install.
I gave them the invoice number, my engine model number, and asked them to help me understand. It could be a simple mistake. It could also be that the price I have was a crazy good deal. It could also be -- something I fear (but think unlikely) -- that Bowman stopped making them and they only have what they have on the shelf. It could be a lot of things. I just don't know, yet.
In general, I try not to sweat something like this where the SS version is readily available for a couple of boat bucks. It a bit pricey, but it should be good for a couple of decades.
At any rate, let's see what TAD says.
STB
Guru
Seachaser,
I'm not sure that I see Mesa's $1850 price as being high for what it is. I think of it as a semi-custom, low-volume, high-quality part that is likely to last decades. If it were me and I had the budget to buy it and forget it "forever" vs installing a "scheduled replacement part", I'd buy that one.
The problem with the less expensive carbon steel ones is that they are designed to corrode from the day they are installed until they leak or are replaced, whichever comes first. For recreational boaters, it is often leak. Of course, depending upon use, they do often last well more than 5 years.
We've all seen the forums. Everyone complains, "Who the %^^%& thought it was a good idea to run salt water through hot mild steel?" Then, of course, when it comes time to pay for the stainless -- everyone wants the mild steel! I totally get it. There are times when I'd make the same choice. When I redid my last boat's mechanicals, I went with the Barr rather than hunt down a stainless alternative.
What to say? Managing boats is managing cash flow as much as capital.
Given the volume on this type of parts, there is normally just one supplier, e.g. Barr, Mesa, etc. In this case Mesa once made both, but has apparently collapsed their offering to just the better of the two. It is what it is, I guess.
I doubt TAD will honor the price from 2016 if they had a reason to raise it since then. But, I am hoping it is some type of mistake, e.g. they were looking at the wrong part number for the install kit, etc.
I feel sure they'll let me know tomorrow or shortly (I was hoping for today).
I'm not sure that I see Mesa's $1850 price as being high for what it is. I think of it as a semi-custom, low-volume, high-quality part that is likely to last decades. If it were me and I had the budget to buy it and forget it "forever" vs installing a "scheduled replacement part", I'd buy that one.
The problem with the less expensive carbon steel ones is that they are designed to corrode from the day they are installed until they leak or are replaced, whichever comes first. For recreational boaters, it is often leak. Of course, depending upon use, they do often last well more than 5 years.
We've all seen the forums. Everyone complains, "Who the %^^%& thought it was a good idea to run salt water through hot mild steel?" Then, of course, when it comes time to pay for the stainless -- everyone wants the mild steel! I totally get it. There are times when I'd make the same choice. When I redid my last boat's mechanicals, I went with the Barr rather than hunt down a stainless alternative.
What to say? Managing boats is managing cash flow as much as capital.
Given the volume on this type of parts, there is normally just one supplier, e.g. Barr, Mesa, etc. In this case Mesa once made both, but has apparently collapsed their offering to just the better of the two. It is what it is, I guess.
I doubt TAD will honor the price from 2016 if they had a reason to raise it since then. But, I am hoping it is some type of mistake, e.g. they were looking at the wrong part number for the install kit, etc.
I feel sure they'll let me know tomorrow or shortly (I was hoping for today).
I completely agree with everything you just said. Looking forward to seeing what they (TAD) returns with. Btw, I just got off the phone with a fella who said he can fabricate the manifold with S.S.
I sent him some pics, told him where the actual parts are located (In a box on the dock) and he said he's certain he'll be able to put something together. He'll get back with me on the price and we'll go from there. I'll keep everyone posted.
I sent him some pics, told him where the actual parts are located (In a box on the dock) and he said he's certain he'll be able to put something together. He'll get back with me on the price and we'll go from there. I'll keep everyone posted.
mermaidgigi
Newbie
What year are the perkins? I have 2 in my trawler 1979. I were able to find parts in Seattle and Ballard,I could either give you a few numbers or let me make a few connections with part numbers etc. Ms.Glenda
mermaidgigi
Newbie
Perkins parts
13608875900. Seattle perkins engine parts, 2069377373 Seaway Marine, Dig deep ask lots of questions and get email addresses to chat. Be very patient and friendly.
13608875900. Seattle perkins engine parts, 2069377373 Seaway Marine, Dig deep ask lots of questions and get email addresses to chat. Be very patient and friendly.
chiropaul
Senior Member
When I owned my 44 Atlantic, I used Mesa Marine to replace the manifolds with their stainless steel models. If you use them make sure you get the stainless studs (they will tell you the thread size). This was in 2002 and I believe they cost me $1250 at the time. As far as the exhaust elbow, contact Marine Manifold in Farmingdale, NY. Paul, the owner is great to deal with. If you send him your existing elbow, he will custom make one for you out of cupro-nickel. Again at the time I replace mine they were about $750. Hope this helps.
STB
Guru
Hi Seachaser,
Okay. I just spoke with TAD and walked through things with them. The basic manicooler, itself, is now $2100 or so. If you order two, they can discount it to $1900, or so. (Rough numbers, don't hold them to that).
The rest of the cost you were quoted was for the "conversion kit". The two really key items in this kit are the intake manifold and the exhaust elbow. There are a bunch of other parts there, but, to my eye, a resourceful person can probably "work those out" without need of the specific kit, e.g. hoses, brackets, adjusting thermostat housing or using different model thermostat (there is a newer version thermostat that doesn't require that grind out, I think), etc.
So, to me, this conversion makes more sense the more of your system is aging. If the problem is really limited to the manifold, then probably just replacing that makes a lot of sense. If it is the manifiold and the exhaust elbow, which would be very likely, the numbers are starting to converge, but it probably still makes sense to replace just the manifold and exhaust elbow.
But, if that heat exchanger is looking rough -- this one-piece solution starts to look really nice. Same is true if the intake manifold is looking rough (but that is very, very unlikely).
I don't know why I don't have a receipt for the conversion kit for my boat. It was clearly converted. And, the parts, e.g. the hoses, look exactly like the ones in the kit. I suspect a receipt was lost along the way (recall this was installed before I bought the boat).
Seaway Marine is an outboard dealership and unlikely to be able to help. Although Perkins Pacific is a big Perkins dealer, they aren't one known to me to do a lot with 3rd party support for older legacy lines after Perkins stops making the parts.
I hope this helps.
Cheers!
-Greg
Okay. I just spoke with TAD and walked through things with them. The basic manicooler, itself, is now $2100 or so. If you order two, they can discount it to $1900, or so. (Rough numbers, don't hold them to that).
The rest of the cost you were quoted was for the "conversion kit". The two really key items in this kit are the intake manifold and the exhaust elbow. There are a bunch of other parts there, but, to my eye, a resourceful person can probably "work those out" without need of the specific kit, e.g. hoses, brackets, adjusting thermostat housing or using different model thermostat (there is a newer version thermostat that doesn't require that grind out, I think), etc.
So, to me, this conversion makes more sense the more of your system is aging. If the problem is really limited to the manifold, then probably just replacing that makes a lot of sense. If it is the manifiold and the exhaust elbow, which would be very likely, the numbers are starting to converge, but it probably still makes sense to replace just the manifold and exhaust elbow.
But, if that heat exchanger is looking rough -- this one-piece solution starts to look really nice. Same is true if the intake manifold is looking rough (but that is very, very unlikely).
I don't know why I don't have a receipt for the conversion kit for my boat. It was clearly converted. And, the parts, e.g. the hoses, look exactly like the ones in the kit. I suspect a receipt was lost along the way (recall this was installed before I bought the boat).
Seaway Marine is an outboard dealership and unlikely to be able to help. Although Perkins Pacific is a big Perkins dealer, they aren't one known to me to do a lot with 3rd party support for older legacy lines after Perkins stops making the parts.
I hope this helps.
Cheers!
-Greg
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Brooksie
Guru
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Now that you have provided pictures of what you have... the Barr cast iron manifold WILL fit your engine. Do NOT switch to Manicooler setup, very expensive, many people with that system are switching back to the older cast iron manifold & separate heat exchangers system.
As I said b/4 the Barr should be about $400. with fasteners (studs) and it does not come with gaskets.
As I said b/4 the Barr should be about $400. with fasteners (studs) and it does not come with gaskets.
STB
Guru
From Barr Marine's Web site:
"The manifold will fit vertical or inclinded models and will accept all of the original end plates, fitting, gaskets and hardware. It will not fit engines equipped with a combined exhaust heat exchanger nor is it applicable to naturally aspirated models."
-- http://www.barrmarine.net/perkins.html
I've never held them side-by-side to compare, but my understanding is that the bolt pattern is not the same, perhaps among other differences.
"The manifold will fit vertical or inclinded models and will accept all of the original end plates, fitting, gaskets and hardware. It will not fit engines equipped with a combined exhaust heat exchanger nor is it applicable to naturally aspirated models."
-- http://www.barrmarine.net/perkins.html
I've never held them side-by-side to compare, but my understanding is that the bolt pattern is not the same, perhaps among other differences.
STB
Guru
I called Barr just to see what I could learn. I didn't really get to any type of tech person or engineering. But, the sales person told me the turbo version of that manifold is not compatible with naturally aspirated engines and he was told not to sell it for those applications. He was unable to tell me if it wouldn't bolt up, wouldn't function as well, or would cause some acute problem. That wasn't information he had ever been given. What he was told is it wont work in NA engines and not to sell it for that purpose.
Next time I find myself talking with Don at S&W or over there where they can show me graveyard parts, I'll ask. But, since I dont live nearby anymore and don't want to pester them about someone else's part unless I am buying something real from them, thst may be a while.
Next time I find myself talking with Don at S&W or over there where they can show me graveyard parts, I'll ask. But, since I dont live nearby anymore and don't want to pester them about someone else's part unless I am buying something real from them, thst may be a while.
STB
Guru
I just pulled up some good pictures of the Massey Ferguson version of the manifold to be totally sure it isn't an option -- to my eye, it looks very different and like it is set up for dry stack vs wet exhaust. I couldn't see the mounting pattern well enough to know if it would bolt up without some modification.
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Well, on the good side, I don't have the manicooler version. I suppose that's a plus. Either way, so much conflicting info w/ the Barr ~$800 version. It seems very confusing as to why it would not work on the NA versions. IDK. I'll give them a call. Thx
STB
Guru
Remember that the turbo on T6.354 engine, like all turbos, is driven by exhaust gas from the exhaust manifold.
In the T6.354 there is an adapter bolted to the exhaust manifold to which the turbo is attached.
The NA doesnt have that turbo or adapter, so it doesn't need, and normally doesn't have, that port/interface on the manifold. The manifold could also be shaped differently to make the geometry easier in the engine room or internally to improve gas flow to the turbo. The water injection also comes later in the marinized turbo exhaust system.
With so many people asserting the manifolds were the same on forums, I wanted to call to ask. I thought, maybe, they after-market engineered a version with a plate to cover the port or something.
But, really, it may not make sense to ask why it doesnt work -- as it shouldn't. If it did work, however, it would make sense to ask, how the heck? I think.
In the T6.354 there is an adapter bolted to the exhaust manifold to which the turbo is attached.
The NA doesnt have that turbo or adapter, so it doesn't need, and normally doesn't have, that port/interface on the manifold. The manifold could also be shaped differently to make the geometry easier in the engine room or internally to improve gas flow to the turbo. The water injection also comes later in the marinized turbo exhaust system.
With so many people asserting the manifolds were the same on forums, I wanted to call to ask. I thought, maybe, they after-market engineered a version with a plate to cover the port or something.
But, really, it may not make sense to ask why it doesnt work -- as it shouldn't. If it did work, however, it would make sense to ask, how the heck? I think.
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STB
Guru
Also, still not seeing what is tough...2 good and readily available options (stainless and manicooler). That is more than the boat had the day it was made 
STB
Guru
Hi all,
The multi cooler is for the range 4 engines. There isn't a version available for the older ones like the TC series.
Cheers!
-Greg
The multi cooler is for the range 4 engines. There isn't a version available for the older ones like the TC series.
Cheers!
-Greg
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High Wire
Guru
Not completely true. We have a Multi-cooler on our 1984 Range 4 NA. The only differences is instead of the turbo there is a metal screen for an intake and the exhaust elbow bolts where the exhaust turbine normally goes.
The service manual says it is used on "some" NA engines.
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STB
Guru
Hi there high wire,
Okay. I stand corrected. I edited my post. There is apparently one for the range 4 NA engine (I had never seen one in a non-turbo, which is why I wrote, "to my knowledge").
But, I don't think there is one for ranges 1-3.
Out of curiosity, what is your engine serial number? Or the first two letters and next 5 digits?
Cheers
-Greg
Okay. I stand corrected. I edited my post. There is apparently one for the range 4 NA engine (I had never seen one in a non-turbo, which is why I wrote, "to my knowledge").
But, I don't think there is one for ranges 1-3.
Out of curiosity, what is your engine serial number? Or the first two letters and next 5 digits?
Cheers
-Greg
High Wire
Guru
Sure
TW70087U
STB
Guru
Hi Highwire,
Thanks! And, looking at it -- interesting -- it looks like the parts lists are way similar between the turbo and NA range 4 engines than they are within the range 1-3 families.
-Greg
Thanks! And, looking at it -- interesting -- it looks like the parts lists are way similar between the turbo and NA range 4 engines than they are within the range 1-3 families.
-Greg
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