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Old 11-17-2012, 08:17 PM   #221
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all in fun. I remember years ago some talk of an incident involving a vessel assisting another vessel regarding liability from tow line transfer. Cant remember the details but i think the court decided that if you throw the line from the assist vessel that the assist vessel then assumes responsibility for the assisted vessels safety if something were to happen while being towed.

wished it wasnt this way, why cant people just be thankful for the help. I've seen many raft up and parties in which water guns, cannons, etc. were being used by everyone and everyone was having a good time.

depressin thoughts..... sorry...LETC GO FISHIN???...maybe we can snag one of them there wakers<smile>
Liabilityhas nothing to do with who passed what towline to whom...I'm in the assistance towing business and that is an old wives tale... But you are correct if inferring that once you assume the duty of a tow that you are now liable for 2 vessels until safely moored.

I agree with the though that good Samaritan means just that..unfortunately in the US ...good Samaritan laws have been diluted to the point of no help for the good deed doer.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:45 PM   #222
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I agree with the though that good Samaritan means just that..unfortunately in the US ...good Samaritan laws have been diluted to the point of no help for the good deed doer.
Sad this has happened. I used to always do my best to help others in need but anymore i am reluctant because of the liability issue.
thanks for the clarification
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:07 PM   #223
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I will always assist those who are truthfully in need. I provide help as safely and professionally as possible; at sea, at harbor, or on land, or in the air. Then, let the BS-Legal cards fall where they will. Assistance to those in need, not bums / panhandlers / purposeful blunderers and the like, but rather persons who actually are having a real problem and are needing assistance will always get my help. BTW, I sleep well and smile at myself in the mirror. Without help I received from others I just might not be here at this time. I will continue to happily try to match their grace as best I can for my entire life!
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:16 AM   #224
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I will always assist those who are truthfully in need. I provide help as safely and professionally as possible; at sea, at harbor, or on land, or in the air. Then, let the BS-Legal cards fall where they will. Assistance to those in need, not bums / panhandlers / purposeful blunderers and the like, but rather persons who actually are having a real problem and are needing assistance will always get my help. BTW, I sleep well and smile at myself in the mirror. Without help I received from others I just might not be here at this time. I will continue to happily try to match their grace as best I can for my entire life!
I used to think the same way...but as boating evolved from the 60's to now..you are usually dealing with an entirely different boater.

They are often incapable of helping themselves, can't adequately help you help them (they don't understand what you are trying to do or say and many can't tie a decent knot that may be the whole issue behind possible damage or injury).

Then after something goes wrong that THEY created....THEY are the first to get upset and blame you...the real chuckleheads take it to their lawyers and make your life miserable.

If you don't have the experience, right boat or equipment....you are really laying it out there.

Fortunately where I am there's assistance towers that can help and fortunately many have the insurance. Where there isn't I would be more apt to help...and that's also where people are probably more able to adequately help you help them and aren't so suit crazy too (usually)
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:11 AM   #225
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I used to think the same way...but as boating evolved from the 60's to now..you are usually dealing with an entirely different boater.

They are often incapable of helping themselves, can't adequately help you help them (they don't understand what you are trying to do or say and many can't tie a decent knot that may be the whole issue behind possible damage or injury).

Then after something goes wrong that THEY created....THEY are the first to get upset and blame you...the real chuckleheads take it to their lawyers and make your life miserable.

If you don't have the experience, right boat or equipment....you are really laying it out there.

Fortunately where I am there's assistance towers that can help and fortunately many have the insurance. Where there isn't I would be more apt to help...and that's also where people are probably more able to adequately help you help them and aren't so suit crazy too (usually)
I agree with much of what you say. I’d like to clarify my position as to what “types-of-assistance/help” I will provide to those "truthfully" in need!

1. Only with life threatening conditions to those in need will I immediately jump in with both feet and do my damndest to save lives
2. If there are ways to easily quell dangers or problems presented to those in need, before professional assistance arrives, I will do my best to help accomplish same
3. If the one(s) in need have no immediate danger I will stand by until professional assistance arrives... if professional assistance simply cannot be available then I will do the best I can to help
4. If those requesting help are full of BS and really do not deserve attention because due to their own BS they got into their non-life-threatening position... then I will laugh real loud and call for professional assistance while staying a fair distance away so I can watch their show of stupidity!

As a Rule: I don’t board or tow others’ boats unless their need truly reaches top priority!
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:25 AM   #226
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As I said...all the great assistance you or I could provide can be greatly diminished by those we try to help...then get blamed for it.

Yesterday I had to unground a 25 footer from a rock strewn beach with a small wave break...no way was I going in close enough to tie him off myself because of the shore break and the possibility of dinging the rocks or taking one over the transom...so I was at the mercy of whoever grabbed the fender/floating towline I floated in.

By then, the local cops showed up to help...one decided he was gonna be a good boyscout and grabbed the buoy and tied it off to the trailer eye...(I had specifically asked the boat owner if he knew how to tie a bowline)...unfortunately the police officer DID NOT know how to tie a bowline. Where is a good boyscout when you need one???

What could have happened is if that knot had failed for any reason....the vessel could have drifted back onto a rockier part of the beach subject to higher waves and I would have been responsible....for a severely damaged boat, injury or worse.

So would have anyone in that situation...so again..no matter how good YOU are (and I don't mean you Art...just the generic "you") who or what is the weakest link and will it ultimately come back to haunt you.

Sure...law of the sea demands that we assist...but the strict definition is to stand by to assist "survivors" or stand by till other help arrives.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:56 AM   #227
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Once, many years ago when I had my first boat, I cam upon a bunch of guys in a broken down 18' or so boat. No way my 12', 5HP boat was going to tow them. They asked me to call SeaTow for them. I did but SeaTow wouldn't come out without talking to them, getting a credit card number, etc. While I was on the radio with SeaTow, the guys got their boat started and took off.

I can't blame SeaTow one bit for not sending a boat out without the assurance of being paid so I don't see how we could call for assistance for someone else.

It amazes me how many people will set out to sea in a boat with no VHF, no anchor, and no towing assistance policy. I wowuld never leave the dock without all three.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:14 AM   #228
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It amazes me how many people will set out to sea in a boat with no VHF, no anchor, and no towing assistance policy. I wowuld never leave the dock without all three.
Many years ago we were fishing the Stream off Morehead City. An open outboard runabout with 4 guys and a couple of fuel drums came up to us. They wanted a course to Beaufort Inlet. I gave them the straight line to the inlet, and told them that would put them over Cape Lookout shoals. I would give them a course to Bouy 14, the Knuckle bouy, and then to the inlet. They said they didn't need that, and took off direct to the inlet. No radio, so no way to contact them. I contacted USCG station Ft. Macon, and told them. That's the last I heard. There are plenty of crazies out there.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:46 AM   #229
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Some of the "phone speak" dosn't work like shorthand by increasing the speed and/or efficiency of communication but serves the purpose of vogue-ness or being "cool". When the grownups start doing it it's no longer cool and like Marin says its loosing favor w the kids.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:12 AM   #230
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Assistance towers respond all the time without speaking to someone directly...as long as the person requested assistance the are on the hook to pay or wind up going to court (the Marine Police are happy to take the report of non-payment)...so all of a sudden paying the towing bill isn't all that bad compared to legal fees...
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Old 11-18-2012, 03:16 PM   #231
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I don't have a problem with your writing style, grammar or spelling. It's very professional. Your real talent though, is turning nothing into a five hundred word essay.
I learned a long, long time ago that many people have poor comprehension skills of the written word. You, and many others, have proven this time and time again on this forum.

So rather than follow up with endless explanations in an attempt to correct a misinterpretation on the reader's part, I have long since learned to explain myself fully the first time. If that makes for an answer that's too long for someone's nano-second attention span, or seeing that many words on a page scares them because their reading abilities are remedial at best, that's fine because I'm not interested in communicating with people like that anyway.

The people I am interested in discussing things with on this forum don't seem to have a problem with reading and understanding my posts. Whether the rest of the participants do or not is not something I worry about.
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:33 PM   #232
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Nano-second ... that sounds fast Ron.
All of us reading along here would be or are in the dark unless we know the offending post. What is this post that Marin made that is less than desirable. I don't think I've found it.
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:00 PM   #233
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[QUOTE=psneeld;113497]As
By then, the local cops showed up to help...one decided he was gonna be a good boyscout and grabbed the buoy and tied it off to the trailer eye...(I had specifically asked the boat owner if he knew how to tie a bowline)...unfortunately the police officer DID NOT know how to tie a bowline. Where is a good boyscout when you need one???

What could have happened is if that knot had failed for any reason....the vessel could have drifted back onto a rockier part of the beach subject to higher waves and I would have been responsible....for a severely damaged boat, injury or worse.


and keep in mind police are not responsible for collateral damage so that would pass the liability to you, the good guy. In that situation as soon as the police arrived i would have said, good bye, you are in good hands know and don't need me and left. Being an emergency responded for many years, years ago, i have heard lots of war stories of good guys getting stuck with undeserving bills for damage caused by the local police departments
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:27 PM   #234
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[QUOTE=bfloyd4445;113565]
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As
By then, the local cops showed up to help...one decided he was gonna be a good boyscout and grabbed the buoy and tied it off to the trailer eye...(I had specifically asked the boat owner if he knew how to tie a bowline)...unfortunately the police officer DID NOT know how to tie a bowline. Where is a good boyscout when you need one???

What could have happened is if that knot had failed for any reason....the vessel could have drifted back onto a rockier part of the beach subject to higher waves and I would have been responsible....for a severely damaged boat, injury or worse.


and keep in mind police are not responsible for collateral damage so that would pass the liability to you, the good guy. In that situation as soon as the police arrived i would have said, good bye, you are in good hands know and don't need me and left. Being an emergency responded for many years, years ago, i have heard lots of war stories of good guys getting stuck with undeserving bills for damage caused by the local police departments
except I am an assistance tower and was responsible for the whole operation anyway...

and just how is a guy getting shoved onto a rocky shore in good hands with the local police??? I didn't mention they were water police...
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:14 PM   #235
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[QUOTE=psneeld;113571]
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except I am an assistance tower and was responsible for the whole operation anyway...

and just how is a guy getting shoved onto a rocky shore in good hands with the local police??? I didn't mention they were water police...
aint water police funded by the county and treated as any other police are by the courts?
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:36 PM   #236
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[QUOTE=bfloyd4445;113580]
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aint water police funded by the county and treated as any other police are by the courts?
----------------------------
Most marine officers are members or a divisions of the same Local or State Law Enforcement Agency or possibly fish and wildlife, it varies by State. And like any municipal or state agency are subject to lawsuits.

The States pay out many millions of dollars every year in liability suits. You may not recognize them as such, as in most states they're called "Tort or Tort Claims" and fall under either the Federal Tort Claim Act or State Tort Claim Law.

"War stories" as usual are partial truths at best. There may be limitations on the liability for torts. "which are solely based on performance or failure to perform." But the civil courts have been very generous in the claimants favor,awarding significant damages in many cases. An interesting case here, Chambers-Castan verses King County, was essentially based on police officers not responding fast enough to a 911 call, after the dispatcher assured the caller they were en-route. There is another very similar case going on in Skagit County right now. In this tort the 911 caller was ultimately killed by his attacker before the police arrived, it will no doubt result in a significant settlement.

Larry B,
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:50 PM   #237
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[QUOTE=Edelweiss;113598]
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There is another very similar case going on in Skagit County right now. In this tort the 911 caller was ultimately killed by his attacker before the police arrived, it will no doubt result in a significant settlement.

Larry B,
Unless there was an error in communication or a deliberate delay in the police response, I don't see how the police or county could be held liable if an attacker kills or injures his victim before the police get there after being called.

That would be like holding Vessel Assist liable because your boat went on the rocks because it took the assistance vessel (or the USCG for that matter) x-amount of time for them to physically get to your location after they got your mayday.

Assistance boats and police cars can only go so fast and if it takes them longer to get to your location than it takes for your boat to go on the rocks (or your attacker to kill you) then your boat's going to go on the rocks (or you'll end up being dead). There aren't any guarantees in the rescue world, it seems to me.

To sue and win over the fact that a car or boat didn't get from Point A to Point B fast enough even though it was physically impossible for the car or boat to do it would in the end, I would think, result in the car or boat not being dispatched at all, and the victims can deal with their situations as best they can.

While it has never come up and the odds of it ever coming up are very slim, this is why will will not offer another boater physical assistance other than to pull them out of the water if they are in it and we can reach them without endangering ourselves.

If we were to try and fail to pull a boat out of danger then the "I'm a victim" mentality so prevalent in this country will take over, or be set in motion by an ambulance-chasing attorney, and we would most likely be held partly or fully responsible for whatever the damages turned out to be.

So we will stand by if there is any value to be obtained from that and we will relay radio messages if necessary. But we will not do a thing to try to save or free another vessel. We are not equipped to do it, we are not trained to do it, and we do not have a city's, county's, state's, or federal organization's liability insurance to back us up.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:18 PM   #238
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Below is the current Skagit County Case, you can read the full brief if you so desire.


NO. 64646-0
IN THE COURT OF APPEALS
OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON
DIVISION I
ON APPEAL FROM
SKAGIT COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT NO. 07-2-02060-1
SKAGIT EMERGENCY COMMUNICATIONS CENTER
d/b/a SKAGIT 911, SKAGIT COUNTY, AND
SKAGIT COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE
Appellants,
vs.
GAYE DIANA MUNICH, as Personal Representative for the Estate of
William R. Munich,

http://www.courts.wa.gov/content/Bri...lant&#39;s.pdf
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:59 PM   #239
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[QUOTE=Marin;113605][QUOTE=Edelweiss;113598]

Unless there was an error in communication or a deliberate delay in the police response, I don't see how the police or county could be held liable if an attacker kills or injures his victim before the police get there after being called.

no, i was refering to property damage as a result of the officers actions in the performance of his duty. Example" cop chases car thief and the cop goes through a fence to cut off the suspect. Who pays for the fence damage? Why the property owner does. At least thats what happens in California. The above example is a real story of what happened to my next door neighbor in 2002.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:16 PM   #240
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The police Department is ultimately responsible for any damage they do. Filling out a tort claim form with pictures and submit same to the appropriate tort claims division will normally result in an appropriate adjustment.

Now if it was your neighbor they were chasing, then probably not.

Yes, the tort claims investigator does review the claim for accuracy. If your neighbor didn't bother to file a claim, oh well his loss.

LB
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