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Old 01-12-2014, 10:57 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
You definitely can go safely to sea in far less than what many recommend...

heck...remember the guy who wanted to fly and tied a bunch of helium balloons to a lawn chair? An advanced thinker...he remembered the BB gun for landing....

He's got more solo flight time than a LOT of armchair pilots...but I can't say his means of flying is much better than some dreamers ideas of crossing oceans.
Lawn Chair Larry For anyone who doesn't remember, this covers a part of that maniacal flight with some contribution from his Admiral.

Lawnchair Larry: The Original Balloon Boy - Video
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Old 01-13-2014, 07:34 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeppesen68 View Post
human start to be paranoiac when ordering a new boat or planning a big adventure.
I was amazed yesterday to found on youtube a couple who cross the globe with their two small kids with very basic sailing boat.simple open cockpit with no wheel but a direct control. just a handle gps. no radar, no watermaker....
voilier.mov - YouTube
Some days ago I read that Nordhavn was surprise about a customer who order a N43 with nearly no options: no wing engine, no air co, no water maker, no hydraulic stabyliser.....they try to convince him about a longer list but realize that the owner had quite experience....Then official at PAE found it very refreshing when delivery....and realize that this owner had a new boat for far less that what the preowned market was asking for the same three-four year old boat!
On the my dyrona blog the owner say that iptions and post delivery nearly touch the 40 pourcent of the list price for a Nordhavn 52....
On my shoping list for a trawler able to carry my familly through the globe I will try to avoid becoming paranoiac.
item 1 is: the sea
item 2 is : family on board
Theses are the most important
I think you make a valid point. I am reminded of this every time I go over a replica of Captain Cook's Endeavour, or similar sailing vessel from the past.
I guess the trick is to get your must-have list down to the true essentials, and make sure those essentials are strong and good quality, and that preferably you can service/repair them yourself.
If you plan to go far afield then among those essentials I would list...
1. Reliable propulsion, and preferably back-up sail or wing engine.
2. Reliable refrigeration.
3. Reliable cooking equipment.
4. Water-maker and good tankage.
5. Self-steering of bulletproof design.
6. Good quality chart plotter, and also be able to use a sextant and charts.
7. Reliable and simple toilet arrangement.
I am assuming one has chosen a vessel with sound hull and decks and good sea-keeping characteristics.
But yes, we have become a bit paranoid re what we consider must haves, and in a boat there is not the need for double or triple redundancy such as you have in your aeroplane.
Most important of all....keep your eye on the prize...
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Old 01-13-2014, 07:42 AM   #83
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I disagree, when you have a full displacement trawler, and going to try crossing an ocean you will realize how badly YOU NEED stabilizers. We turned ours off in a moderately rough and confused sea, it's like being in a rock tumbler.
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Old 01-13-2014, 11:07 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Peter B View Post
I think you make a valid point. I am reminded of this every time I go over a replica of Captain Cook's Endeavour, or similar sailing vessel from the past.
I guess the trick is to get your must-have list down to the true essentials, and make sure those essentials are strong and good quality, and that preferably you can service/repair them yourself.
If you plan to go far afield then among those essentials I would list...
1. Reliable propulsion, and preferably back-up sail or wing engine.
2. Reliable refrigeration.
3. Reliable cooking equipment.
4. Water-maker and good tankage.
5. Self-steering of bulletproof design.
6. Good quality chart plotter, and also be able to use a sextant and charts.
7. Reliable and simple toilet arrangement.
I am assuming one has chosen a vessel with sound hull and decks and good sea-keeping characteristics.
But yes, we have become a bit paranoid re what we consider must haves, and in a boat there is not the need for double or triple redundancy such as you have in your aeroplane.
Most important of all....keep your eye on the prize...
Peter

You missed:
  • Range, better have that one right!
  • Good weather receiving systems and communications to the weather routers.
  • And yes, stabilizers.
I have a better idea, buy a Nordhavn or Dashew FPB and cruise across the oceans happily ever after. Plus, a very big one, with these two you're able to successfully sell your vessel when you're tired out.
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Old 01-13-2014, 12:57 PM   #85
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stabilizers...depends on boat and crew.....

right back to the ridiculous "need" debate.....
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Old 01-13-2014, 01:03 PM   #86
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I would stick with a motor sailer. (a bigger one than I have now)
- No extra backup engine required
- Less fuel tankage required
- no other stabilizing system required
- why lose a knot with paravanes when you can gain a couple with sails

I agree with Bill Kimley - Sea Horse Marine on this.
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Old 01-13-2014, 01:30 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
stabilizers...depends on boat and crew.....

right back to the ridiculous "need" debate.....
Not really, comfortable blue passage making in a M/V is commonly if not unanimously done with stabilizers, whether passive or active. I will say that a planing boat headed out to go fishing is pretty good in mild waters, until the trolling begins.

I'd guess the cruncher in this discussion though is ask Nordhavn or the other blue water builders such as KK, Dashew, etc how many order their new build boats today WITHOUT stabilizers, we all know the answer.
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Old 01-13-2014, 01:47 PM   #88
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........cruncher in this discussion though is ask Nordhavn or the other blue water builders such as KK, Dashew, etc how many order their new build boats today WITHOUT stabilizers, we all know the answer.
Exactly my point! Next to NONE.
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Old 01-13-2014, 01:54 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
stabilizers...depends on boat and crew..... right back to the ridiculous "need" debate.....
Yep. If it's a nordhavn, and your crew is salty and doesn't get sick for nothing then you don't need them. But if your going bring your family across an ocean and they have no experience with water, well... We know the answer to that don't we?....... Not that he would get to far and not turn back only to his realization that he needs them.
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Old 01-13-2014, 02:32 PM   #90
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Greetings, Mr. h. Not at all. My comment was directed towards the reappearance of Ms. GG after a 1 year hiatus and what I suspect may be another go-around of "What about this one?"...."Aw gee, almost but not quite...., close but no cigar and not enough of or too much of something-or others.....". Refreshing and a stimulating mental exercise for the first 200 or 300 posts but wearying after a while. You realize of course Ms. GG's syndrome is the personification of centuries, nay millenia of genetic conditioning that separates men and woman's shopping habits. When homo sapiens were hunter/gatherers, women (gatherers) had the luxury of sorting through the nuts, berries and roots to select the best for dinner. Men's (hunters) only option was get in, kill, get out. No lolly-gagging about making choices. If you weren't fast, you went hungry. Don't believe me? Go shopping with a woman.

Awesome!

Just wondering if this explanation alone may define why one individual may feel it necessary to have an LRC with no previous experience of ocean crossings? That's a lot of NM even if one only stays coastal in their cruising.
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Old 01-13-2014, 04:55 PM   #91
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I would stick with a motor sailer. (a bigger one than I have now)...
- no other stabilizing system required
- why lose a knot with paravanes when you can gain a couple with sails

I agree with Bill Kimley - Sea Horse Marine on this.
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I agree and disagree. The statement is only good if the winds are high enough so your vertical stabilizers (sails) can be used as intended (more than 10 knots of wind). We have chafed more than a few holes and had sails slattering in horrible sea conditions after a front and the sails are totally useless.

IMHO a good combination would be a motorsailer with paravanes.
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Old 01-13-2014, 08:52 PM   #92
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I agree and disagree. The statement is only good if the winds are high enough so your vertical stabilizers (sails) can be used as intended (more than 10 knots of wind). We have chafed more than a few holes and had sails slattering in horrible sea conditions after a front and the sails are totally useless.

IMHO a good combination would be a motorsailer with paravanes.
You're right Larry.
I must admit I have been caught in rough seas in dead calm weather once or twice. It sometimes happens the day after a big blow, as it often takes a bit of time for the seas to calm down after the wind has died. Its a fairly rare occurrence in these parts as the wind is relentless, but having paravanes on those days certainly would be nice.
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Old 01-13-2014, 10:04 PM   #93
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Old 01-14-2014, 01:25 AM   #94
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Stabilization

Don't think that the insides of our pleasure boats are set up to withstand heavy seas without stabilization. Items which we think are secured, refrigerators, TVs, tables are secure only to a point. If the boat is bounced around they can come loose. The insides of commercial vessels are fitted out differently than pleasure boats.

If you are going to cross oceans sooner or later you will experience heavy weather, and you need to be prepared for it.

Protecting the windows in heavy weather is also critical. The Nordhavn 46 has small windows compared to most trawlers to protect against the windows being caved in. Still I have seen the Nordhavn 46 equipped with Lexan plates on the port side salon windows. Lost of a window in heavy seas could be fatal.

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Old 01-14-2014, 02:58 AM   #95
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Larry,
I'm with you a motor sailor with paravanes covers all territory.
Lexan covers for windows are a must, mainly fwd windows and large side windows.
I don't have lexan screens but my mate on Waverley who is now in the Soloman Islands had some made before he departed.

I have been thru some really heavy weather in Tidahapah and once some years ago I really wished I had some screens installed. Everything turned out ok and I was glad I had my fishing mates on board and not the Boss Lady.
Good refrigeration is a must for me as if all else fails one must sit down have a cold beer and think about it.
Cheers
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Old 01-14-2014, 03:11 AM   #96
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Larry,
Good refrigeration is a must for me as if all else fails one must sit down have a cold beer and think about it.
Cheers
Benn
I'm with you on that one. Benn.

Marty - I also agree about our toy boats getting knocked around easily.
A few months ago my engine-heated hot water tank came loose in heavy seas, and it moved just enough to kink one of the hoses cutting off cooling water flow to the engine.

Just one example of the hundreds of things that must be upgraded to handle the full wrath of Neptune.
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Old 01-14-2014, 04:16 AM   #97
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I'm with you on that one. Benn.


A few months ago my engine-heated hot water tank came loose in heavy seas, and it moved just enough to kink one of the hoses cutting off cooling water flow to the engine.

Bad enough to have a tank loose on the boat, but then to lose the engine in heavy seas.

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Old 01-14-2014, 04:37 AM   #98
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I disagree, when you have a full displacement trawler, and going to try crossing an ocean you will realize how badly YOU NEED stabilizers. We turned ours off in a moderately rough and confused sea, it's like being in a rock tumbler.
OLiver, of course you are right, but the all important issue here is cost. I think the original poster was approaching this from the standpoint of what is affordable and adequate if one is prepared to put up with less than perfect conditions at times, versus what you might go for if money is no object.
Let's face it…not many can afford the outlay of over a mill to get out on the water. Those who order/buy well equipped Nordys or KKs or Selenes etc are usually extremely well-heeled, so of course will want the 'works'. However 'want' and 'need' are not synonymous...
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Old 01-14-2014, 06:10 AM   #99
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However 'want' and 'need' are not synonymous...
I call them DESIREMENTS,
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