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Old 08-02-2013, 11:06 PM   #1
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Passage maker desirable feature questions?

Newbie here with several questions regarding the pros and cons of certain features on blue water trawlers. Not sure if this should go under General Discussion or Liveaboards…

My envisioned scenario is a couple crewed 50’-60’ liveaboard passage maker, basing out of the PNW, with an emphasis on cruising Alaskan waters. I don’t own a boat, have never owned a boat, and am merely day-dreaming about Nordhavns & Kadey-Krogens.

That said…

1. Wet lockers: How do they work? Convenience or something you can’t live without?

2. Pilot house berthing & head: For a couple crewed trawler making overnight ocean passages, is an enclosed off-watch pilot house cabin truly useful or is an open-air berth behind pilot house seating adequate? Under the same conditions, is a pilot house head just nice to have… or a critical feature?

3. Forward vs. aft pilot house design with regard to embarking and recovering tenders: Pros & Cons? I am especially interested in difficulty considerations under rough conditions or emergency.

4. In some boat interior schematics, I have seen showers incorporating small oval tubs and a bench. Are there advantages to this style over a conventional shower stall?

5. Things never being equal, I’ll ask anyway: For a live aboard lifestyle, would you rather have more salon length or more aft cockpit (and lazarette) length?

Thanks in advance...
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Old 08-03-2013, 12:17 AM   #2
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Welcome Astro,

Lots of personal preferences without a definitive correct answer to these questions.

1. I would think a wet locker would be very important in the PNW. A good one would often have a drain to the shower bilge pump and a fan circulating heated air through it. Mildew is always a problem on a boat.

2. Depends on the size of boat you are talking about and how much space you have to work with. Nothing is necessary, as most pilothouses would have a place to catnap. I would want to be able to stay close to the helm. You don't want to get too comfortable if you are on watch.
If I had a 2nd head, I would want it off the cockpit, where there is good air circulation.

3. Lots of different options for tender storage (davits, on the swim step, on the flybridge or bow,) Each boat design has its options. Some more than others. Having a working boom to winch things up gives more flexibility move things around.

4. A knee deep tub on a boat? They seem to be popular with the old GB's and others. I don't know why. Stand up showering would be tough in rough seas, but if it's really required, you can sit on the toilet and shower..

5. Depends on your lifestyle and weather. Where do you spend your time relaxing at home. In the house, or the back yard/garden?

Happy boat shopping!
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Old 08-03-2013, 01:03 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astronomy View Post
Newbie here with several questions regarding the pros and cons of certain features on blue water trawlers. Not sure if this should go under General Discussion or Liveaboards…

My envisioned scenario is a couple crewed 50’-60’ liveaboard passage maker, basing out of the PNW, with an emphasis on cruising Alaskan waters. I don’t own a boat, have never owned a boat, and am merely day-dreaming about Nordhavns & Kadey-Krogens.

That said…

1. Wet lockers: How do they work? Convenience or something you can’t live without?

2. Pilot house berthing & head: For a couple crewed trawler making overnight ocean passages, is an enclosed off-watch pilot house cabin truly useful or is an open-air berth behind pilot house seating adequate? Under the same conditions, is a pilot house head just nice to have… or a critical feature?

3. Forward vs. aft pilot house design with regard to embarking and recovering tenders: Pros & Cons? I am especially interested in difficulty considerations under rough conditions or emergency.

4. In some boat interior schematics, I have seen showers incorporating small oval tubs and a bench. Are there advantages to this style over a conventional shower stall?

5. Things never being equal, I’ll ask anyway: For a live aboard lifestyle, would you rather have more salon length or more aft cockpit (and lazarette) length?

Thanks in advance...

1. We boat in a place that rains approx twice as much as seattle and don't consider a wet locker important at all. Fresh air ventilation is probably the most important and the most overlooked thing you can have to make a boat comfortable and dry in wet humid conditions.

2. I think that the cabins behind the pilothouse are intended for paid captains. A place to stretch out close to the helm is handy.

3. Aft pilothouse is more comfortable underway. The problem is that unless you're looking at closer to 60' and above aft pilothouse designs generally will take away from salon space, since the pilothouse on <60' boats is generally 1\2 level above the salon. Larger boats have more freedom since the pilothouse can be made a full level above the salon and not make the boat seem top heavy.

3. We have a tub and have never used it and probably never will.

4. Room = comfort. Smaller cockpit, but big enough to fit some chairs, bigger salon. Cockpit should be covered.

BTW, you do not need a Nordhavn or a Krogen to cruise to Alaska.

Lots of less expensive quite capable boats out there that might make dreaming a bit more realistic for all but the most financially fortunate.




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Old 08-03-2013, 02:06 AM   #4
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Here's my dos centavos:

First, a 50-60' vessel will be a handful for a new owner, and you'll a difficult time getting it insured without having a hired skipper. Also, you'll want to consider the ramifications of having a larger boat- moorage, maintenance, etc- in addition to the space a larger boat offers.

To your questions:

1) we don't have a wet locker, and do just fine as full time liveaboards. We can hang wet gear in the sun deck area, or in the head.

2) until you get into higher end vessels, you won't have have a PH cabin or head to worry about.

3) While we don't have a PH, I prefer a forward PH design, as it lends to more flexability in design. When it's rough, we'll just tow our dinghy vice attempt to retrieve and stow atop the hardtop.

4) we had a tub on our 38' Bayliner, and it was used once. Bear in mind that a tub can drain your hot water tank in one bath....

5) Good question. On our dock, we have a Symbol 55 PH, Navigator 53 PH, our PT52 aft cabin cockpit yachtfisher, and a Riviera 37 sedan- all liveaboards. The consensus of the group is that the Navigator 53 is the best for large parties and entertaining in fair weather, as it has a huge cockpit; we also all agree that the larger salon our boat has is the most desirable trait of being a liveaboard.
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Old 08-03-2013, 07:53 AM   #5
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A 48 Hatteras LRC, which is as big as many 55-57 footers and the 49 Defever are both great and reasonable options. They are built like tanks and have very good systems.
Good hunting.
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Old 08-03-2013, 07:55 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astronomy View Post
....1. Wet lockers: How do they work? Convenience or something you can’t live without?

We have a wet locker in the pilot house that drains in to the main bilge, it's great! From day one, it's been used to store paper towels, napkins and toilet paper. It's large enough to carry a six month supply. Wet stuff gets hung up on the back deck.

2. Pilot house berthing & head: For a couple crewed trawler making overnight ocean passages, is an enclosed off-watch pilot house cabin truly useful or is an open-air berth behind pilot house seating adequate? Under the same conditions, is a pilot house head just nice to have… or a critical feature? Has been answered.

3. Forward vs. aft pilot house design with regard to embarking and recovering tenders: Pros & Cons? I am especially interested in difficulty considerations under rough conditions or emergency.

The further forward the more you'll feel the sea. If you or you partner are prone to sea sickness the further aft the PH is the better.

4. In some boat interior schematics, I have seen showers incorporating small oval tubs and a bench. Are there advantages to this style over a conventional shower stall?

We have a modeled in bench in a stall shower. Take what you can get but I bet you'd never use the tub other than for washing things that are to big to fit in the washing machine.

5. Things never being equal, I’ll ask anyway: For a live aboard lifestyle, would you rather have more salon length or more aft cockpit (and lazarette) length?

We have double doors that open on to the aft deck so it feels like we have more room in both areas. We have always looked at the "hang out space" and where we'll spend the time.

...
Every boat's a compromise.
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:15 AM   #7
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We use our tub to store beer!!
The shower is much more practical unless you are tied to a dock.

2 important criteria to me are:
Pilothouse for keeping out of wind/sun/rain - makes whole experience much better than having to steer from outside. Flybridge is still an option, but use it when you choose, not all the time.
Walk around decks for docking, mooring, and general safety.
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Old 08-03-2013, 10:45 AM   #8
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You are asking all of the wrong questions for a blue water passagemaker. Read Bebe's book. He didn't discuss the merits of a tub in the shower or not!!!

Seriously unless your post was just to get people stirred up about mostly irrelevant things, think about:

1. Strong windows and if not how you can install transparent covers that can withstand green water hitting them.

2. Ballast or not. I think Bebe will tell you that it is almost essential for a passagemaker.

3. Engine systems; filters and strainers that can be cleared/changed in 20' seas.

4. Adequate bilge pumps.

5. The list goes on.

A passagemaker must: stay upright in 20' seas, not downflood in a semi capsize, maintain its water integrity, keep the engine running, keep the steering working.

Everything else is creature comforts and convenience, but not essential for a passagemaker.

And although I have never been there, I tend to agree with Kevin that doing the Alaskan inside passage doesn't take a real bluewater passagemaker.

My definition of bluewater capability (and I understand that it is just mine) is a boat (and of course the crew to go with it) that can take care of itself in virtually any weather short of a hurricane.

David
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:47 AM   #9
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They did mention in the original post the boat was going to be a livaboard as well; but you are right, David, the Inside Passage doesnt require a blue water boat. I think any 50-60 ft boat as mentioned would be more than capable if the operator knew their boat.

For anyone who has never owned a boat before, any question is valid. Its a steep learning curve, but a rewarding one.
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Old 08-03-2013, 12:10 PM   #10
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BTW, you do not need a Nordhavn or a Krogen to cruise to Alaska.

Lots of less expensive quite capable boats out there that might make dreaming a bit more realistic for all but the most financially fortunate.
Couldn't agree more! I saw this boat in Alaska and talked to her skipper 3 weeks ago. She's a 1983 45' CHP with a 400hp Cummins and cruises at 10 knots. With a single stateroom (Immense) and a small covered cockpit, she plies the waters of SE Alaska every summer and winters in Seattle.
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Old 08-03-2013, 01:32 PM   #11
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I realize that my questions are about minor details, but they are ones that have occurred to me as I read forums and blogs. My neophyte yearning for a Nordhavn (or comparable competitor) is precisely due to the proven blue-water reputation of such craft. I want sea keeping over-kill in a trawler. Otherwise, I'd just be looking for a planing boat and limit myself to touring the San Juans on weekends.

I also realize that my queries have the same relevance as a non-pilot asking about options on a Grumman Gulfstream jet... but that 50-60 footer is where I'd like to be someday. I'd not limit myself to the Inside Passage, but would eventually want to head to the S. Pacific & Australia. I'd rather get there in the smallest big boat I could handle, after accumulating the years & miles to be capable of such a voyage. However... Alaska first and foremost.

I'd never anticipate owning such a craft until I had the financing, hands-on maintenance dues, experience, & appropriate training/licensing under my belt. Might very well spend several years owning something a lot smaller (and less expensive) before I'd make that upgrade.

I am a life long seeker of challenges and new experiences, but methodical and patient in my approach to things that can get me into trouble.

Thanks for entertaining my silly questions. I invite anyone to discuss additional features (outside of those I already asked about).
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Old 08-03-2013, 03:27 PM   #12
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Much smaller than that Walt do the SE AK scene. Many Albin 25s go north (including ours) and people w OB boats under 20' and w less than 50hp went north to Juneau in the 50s and 60s. Many trailered to Prince Rupert but many all the way in their small boats. Ther'e used to be a yearly article in Alaska magazine called "With the Outboarders".

Now of course it would be much safer w all the modern electronics and good weather reports.

Some here could make the trip in their dinghy's. Younger guys that could handle that much exposure. Also the north coast of BC and SE AK require some (or more than that) luck on weather. In 03 my wife and I went to Juneau in our Albin 25 and had very close to perfect weather (sun and 70 to 80) the whole way. Except some rain in Kelsey Bay. But I've talked to people that said they had rain on the whole trip. But people that live there say "if you wait for the rain to stop you won't do anything".
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Old 08-03-2013, 07:58 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Chrisjs View Post
We use our tub to store beer!!
The shower is much more practical unless you are tied to a dock.

2 important criteria to me are:
Pilothouse for keeping out of wind/sun/rain - makes whole experience much better than having to steer from outside. Flybridge is still an option, but use it when you choose, not all the time.
Walk around decks for docking, mooring, and general safety.
I use our tub at least once a week and not always when tied to the dock !!!
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Old 08-04-2013, 09:01 AM   #14
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I'd never anticipate owning such a craft until I had the financing, hands-on maintenance dues, experience, & appropriate training/licensing under my belt. Might very well spend several years owning something a lot smaller (and less expensive) before I'd make that upgrade.
Good idea to take courses but nothing replaces experience. At the moment, there is no license requirement in the U.S. for owning/operating a private yacht. The only way to get real experience is to go out and do it, via owning or crewing for others. I went from a 27 foot sailboat to a 43' in one jump, so don't get caught up in the expensive two foot larger at a time thing. My first out-of-sight of land overnight trip was when I departed Lymington for Cherbourg, at sunset. We survived the channel crossing and went on to cross Atlantic, it was always one day at a time. But do take navigation and diesel maintenance courses and keep the dream always on your mind, because you are the only one to make this happen.
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Old 08-04-2013, 09:29 AM   #15
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[QUOTE=Barco Sin Vela;171609]....At the moment, there is no license requirement in the U.S. for owning/operating a private yacht... QUOTE]

I think most States now have or will be having some sort of licensing requirements for operating boats. We're WA residence they have specific regulations, although some us are grandfathered in because of age.

Washington State
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:27 AM   #16
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Larry M;
I clicked on that link... Not sure how much they charge but I'm sure the money goes to a good place. I never minded the requirements for young operators to have taken a course but the Washington State thing sounds like a revenue generator. Losing our freedoms a little at a time.

My navigation courses were from the RYA at the Little Ship Club in London. Very in-depth and very inexpensive classroom courses.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:28 AM   #17
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Pilgrim 40 in Alaska

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astronomy View Post
My envisioned scenario is a couple crewed 50’-60’ liveaboard passage maker, basing out of the PNW, with an emphasis on cruising Alaskan waters. I don’t own a boat, have never owned a boat, and am merely day-dreaming about Nordhavns & Kadey-Krogens.

Things never being equal, I’ll ask anyway: For a live aboard lifestyle, would you rather have more salon length or more aft cockpit (and lazarette) length?

Thanks in advance...
I would suggest you have a look aboard this Pilgrim 40 in Alaska if its still for sale:
1986 40 (ft.) Pilgrim Trawler for sale in Sitka, AK. | ID 93611

And have a take with the owners who have spent time cruising that area you are interested in.

This is NOT a blue water cruiser, but then again I think a lot of trawlers are oversold in that respect.

If you are really contemplating a fair amount of liveaboard time, you need to visit on board a few of these vessel to get a good idea of the 'accommodations'. Many trawler designs I look at don't provide as large of a saloon for the length of the vessels, and certainly not as usable back deck as does the design. So my vote is large saloon and large covered aft deck.

Do a search on this forum for Pilgrim and look at some of the recent photos that have been added.

BTW take you wife along and see if she might agree with this lady:
Little Darlin' - Pilgrim 40
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:35 AM   #18
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The primary importance is the boat is stable with out syabilization, reliable engine running gear and the range. If the boat does not have the basic the other stuff does not matter. Long range boats are usually 50+ ft because of the large tank amd storage require for a long period of time.

Most larger boats have a helm are to sit entertain that can be used as a sleeping area. We have used the pilot house as a sleeping area many times. When its just my wife and I she syays in the pilot house. Most large boats have an auto pilot that does.allow a quick bathroom break. Bath rooms are usually close to the helm.

Larger boay usually have a separate shower tube. however not many have a tube because of the hot.water required. Water has to be conserved eben when being a live abourd.
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:19 PM   #19
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My wife bought the boat to be a dock condo so living space was her primary importance and safty. She choice the.baot bevause it was.a wide body for more area, the main stateroom for.the size and.closet drawer and storage, plus two other stateroom and a stoage room.

Most motor boats do not have a.wet room as there is no reason to be out the the weather so we use the back deck or pilot house. Its not like a sail boat so we do not get tjat wet

Many long.range boats tend to have the helm to ward.the stern unless the syer deck is needed as a.work area. Many habe a high raised bow to protect the house. Having a wide body may allow for.a larger stern deck that can be enclosed. The Eaglrs ster is 13 ft by10 ft so its bigger than most.

I have to say my wife bought a pretty good boat for not knowing much about boays except it met her wants and its big and heavy.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:14 PM   #20
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Nice Showers

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..My envisioned scenario is a couple crewed 50’-60’ liveaboard passage maker, basing out of the PNW, with an emphasis on cruising Alaskan waters. ...
For live-aboard in that part of the world I would want the capability on nice, long, hot showers. And a nice size shower rather than many of the minimalistic ones they put on vessels.

...started a new subject thread on that subject
Recirculating Shower Water 'System'
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