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Old 09-24-2013, 07:10 AM   #1
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Pascoe Books?

Anybody familiar with "Mid-Size Power Boats"? Pricey as hell, but worth t?

I'm looking for resources that I can use to build a pre-survey checklist and generally get better educated. When we start looking seriously for our first trawler next year, I'd rather use my time to weed out DOA boats before hiring a pro.

I have this link by a surveyor, which I think will be useful: Marine Survey 101, how to do your own marine survey

Just looking for additional resources. Thanks.
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Old 09-24-2013, 08:25 AM   #2
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Aside from Pascoe I don't know any good books on the subject but this forum is a formidable resource with a knowledge base far exceeding that of any individual surveyor or writer. If it were me looking to pull together a point by point list to weed out the junk pre-survey, I would make my own, then post it here for critique and/or additions by your fellow forum members. With nearly every make and model ever built represented here, there is a vast pool of "first-hand experience" based knowledge. With some editing to reduce the list to the key points, it would be a pretty powerful document. I'm certain it would also be of keen interest to new boaters looking to make their first purchase.
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Old 09-24-2013, 08:38 AM   #3
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In case you haven't seen his website this is it Yacht Survey Online: David Pascoe, Marine Surveyor there is lots of information there.
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:36 AM   #4
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In case you haven't seen his website this is it Yacht Survey Online: David Pascoe, Marine Surveyor there is lots of information there.
More like lots of mis-information. With regard to his engine articles, the man is clueless. Some of the stuff he publishes would be funny if it were not presented as factual.

The guy is the poster boy for all the reasons to be very very skeptical of anything a toy-boat surveyor tells you.
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:57 AM   #5
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While I would love to have a website as prolific as Pascoe's but from RickB instead....

Pascoe is a "source" for info but surely not the "final authority" worth reading...

I have posted many times that what is printed on the internet is a wealth of info...more than likely 90% mostly opinion or trash...but has some thread to the truth...or at least it gives you the incentive to find a counterpoint.

If you take info...distill it wth what you know...investigate further both internet and real people you trust....you might be on the right path.

Based on what I have read and taken from the internet...there's not too many books out there I would bother to buy these days. Learn how to or find someone that is good at searching the internet...and find some "real" people in your neck of the woods that know their "profession" inside and out and aren't afraid to tell you "I don't know but I'll find out for you"...and even then acid test their reply.

Plus remember there's the right way to do it, the way if your life depended on it, then the coatal cruise requirement, and the afternoon sail requirement and the dockominium requirement for boating and it's associated systems.

ABYC, mag writers and many internet posters usually recommend the "right way" or the sailing to Europe in hurricane conditions requirements...but for most of us...somewhere's between the coastal cruising and afternoon sail requirements will keep us afloat and safe if the skipper is up to it.

This is from a commercial capt that responds to wll over 200 assistance towing/salvage calls a year and cruises solidly for 2-3000 miles and 4 months a year between Jersey and Florida. I have no where the technical background of some...but the day to day getting underway with bailing wire holding my world together isn't exactly rocket science either.
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:20 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by RickB View Post
More like lots of mis-information. With regard to his engine articles, the man is clueless. Some of the stuff he publishes would be funny if it were not presented as factual.

The guy is the poster boy for all the reasons to be very very skeptical of anything a toy-boat surveyor tells you.

Rick

Could you quantify the mis information Pascoe presents, with references?

I have read Pascoes books and would love to be better educated. I'm always looking to learn and you are a wealth of information.

Thanks
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Old 09-24-2013, 01:52 PM   #7
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Have not been to Pascoe's survey site in ten years, but at the time he had very specific things he liked and everything else was no good, from my understanding he has been out of the biz for a long time, I'd image selling books as a side line. Like others have said, you could gleam some info from him, but I've seen some stuff written that was plain miss information.
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Old 09-24-2013, 02:48 PM   #8
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Have not been to Pascoe's survey site in ten years, but at the time he had very specific things he liked and everything else was no good, from my understanding he has been out of the biz for a long time, I'd image selling books as a side line. Like others have said, you could gleam some info from him, but I've seen some stuff written that was plain miss information.
OK, I'll repeat my request from the post above.

If you have specific things that you can point out that Pascoe was in error, please share them with everybody.

Its not fair to Pascoe (and I have no relation to him, dont know him, never met him) to make a claim about misinformation without backing that claim up with specifics.

Please do not take this as argumentative, it is not. If someone went to a forum and started posting that you were incorrect professionally, wouldnt you want them to quantify that allegation.
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Old 09-24-2013, 02:53 PM   #9
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I've followed some of Pascoe's work and read many of his reports. I found a lot of information, which for me personally, was informative.
That said, he is in many ways a victim of his own success. No one person can be an authority on all things boating. It's just way to complicated a topic and there are so many variables. Like everything else that's written, verify what’s fact and what’s personal opinion and take the opinions with a grain of salt.

I learned my lesson with surveyors. Upon recommendation of an acquaintance I hired a surveyor who it turned out, had very little personal experience with power boats other than what someone told him or he had read in a book. I was a little concerned when he arrived and he was surprised it was a powerboat and not a California sailboat. About 30 minutes into the survey, I realized this wasn't going well. I asked him about his training and experience specific to power boats. He became indignant and visibly angry. Stating he was "offended by me questioning his credentials." He then offered to end the survey and I accepted.
Like many other things in life, surveys are a fact of life, but choose your surveyor carefully. The blanket statement, "I've been a surveyor for 30 years." is not a qualification. Don't be afraid to verify their knowledge and experience with your type of boat before you hire them.


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Old 09-24-2013, 03:01 PM   #10
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Its not fair to Pascoe (and I have no relation to him, dont know him, never met him) to make a claim about misinformation without backing that claim up with specifics.
It is a FL thing shared by others, best not to have reasons for dislike in print.

Angus -- A few questions and comments:
  • Where are you located and where will your boat search boundaries be?
  • Each vessel even though of the same brand can be very different based equipment and prior owner care, maintenance and abuse.
  • Do you have a brand, year and budget you are pointing to yet?
  • Are you looking for a fixer upper or already in pristine condition?
  • Be careful on internet advice including mine.
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Old 09-24-2013, 03:21 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
Rick

Could you quantify the mis information Pascoe presents, with references?

I have read Pascoes books and would love to be better educated. I'm always looking to learn and you are a wealth of information.

Thanks

Oh dear, where to stop ...

"Because the turbo gets hot, it also heats up the air on the intake side ..."

Air gets hot because it is compressed.

"The turbo will increase the air flow proportional to engine speed."

Turbochargers increase output proportional to engine load, not speed.

"A diesel has no spark plugs. The fuel is ignited by compressing it until it explodes under extreme pressure ..."

Fuel is ignited by the heat from the compressed charge air. It does not "explode." If diesel fuel exploded because it was compressed, we would all have chunks of injector pumps all over the engine room.

"You can probably appreciate that if the cylinder is not cooled down before the next compression cycle, the temperature inside the cylinder is going to be rather hot. Thus, when the piston comes up and starts compressing the atomized fuel, it is going to exploded SOONER because the cylinder air temperature is higher. It's a matter of timing. This is bad news because the detonation is going to occur a few nanoseconds before the piston reaches top dead center. This throws the engine timing off and can result in acute loss of power and other serious problems. Like connecting rods through the block."

Atomized fuel is not compressed, it doesn't explode and as far as "timing" is concerned, the less delay in combustion after start of injection the better. The man simply has no idea of how a diesel engine works.

"The bottom line is that the 6V92 and the two cycle engines are substantially more efficient engines ..."

Yeah ... I almost hate to dignify that one with a response.

"Even though the turbo creates extra drag itself, it also allows each cylinder to get a large shot of fuel."

I would love to know how an exhaust driven turbocharger "creates extra drag" on an engine. It converts the work available in what would otherwise be lost as waste heat into increased mass flow of charge air.

"Horse power and torque are two different measures of power. Torque is a measure of the kinetic energy that builds up in a rotating engine."

Torque is a moment of force. It is not power, it is not a measure of power. An electric motor or a reciprocating steam engine for example will produce their highest torque at zero rpm and produce zero power.

"Torque is not a constant, but varies over the power curve, as shown in the graphs for a diesel engine below."

The graphs he provides are engine and propeller power curves and fuel consumption curves. They are not torque curves. He seems not to understand the difference ...

I could go on and on but it really isn't worth the bandwidth or my time.
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Old 09-24-2013, 03:28 PM   #12
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Its not fair to Pascoe ... to make a claim about misinformation without backing that claim up with specifics.
Pascoe's own writings provide the best argument anyone can make about his lack of subject matter expertise in power and propulsion.

And it is fair to hold him to a reasonable standard of accuracy. Years ago when I first read some of the stuff he published I wrote to him with corrections and citations on where to verify my statements. To this date he has not corrected his outlandish errors. He is fair game as far as I am concerned, his writings in this area are so far wrong as to pull into question everything he has published.

Boater beware is my opinion on that particular purveyor of the surveyor's trade.
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Old 09-24-2013, 03:33 PM   #13
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OK, I'll repeat my request from the post above.

If you have specific things that you can point out that Pascoe was in error, please share them with everybody.

Its not fair to Pascoe (and I have no relation to him, dont know him, never met him) to make a claim about misinformation without backing that claim up with specifics.

Please do not take this as argumentative, it is not. If someone went to a forum and started posting that you were incorrect professionally, wouldnt you want them to quantify that allegation.
As I stated it has been ten years, so I'm not going back to investigate all of his opinions, from what I originally read yes he indeed has miss information, now I'm not calling him out, I said miss information, some of you need to realize this is an open forum with open opinions, that's all, relax!
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Old 09-24-2013, 03:33 PM   #14
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Rick

Could you quantify the mis information Pascoe presents, with references?

I have read Pascoes books and would love to be better educated. I'm always looking to learn and you are a wealth of information.

Thanks
Kevin,
I sent you a PM. Yeah, I'm back here messing around until BOC is back up! :>)
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Old 09-24-2013, 04:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
Oh dear, where to stop ...

"Because the turbo gets hot, it also heats up the air on the intake side ..."

Air gets hot because it is compressed.

"The turbo will increase the air flow proportional to engine speed."

Turbochargers increase output proportional to engine load, not speed.

"A diesel has no spark plugs. The fuel is ignited by compressing it until it explodes under extreme pressure ..."

Fuel is ignited by the heat from the compressed charge air. It does not "explode." If diesel fuelexploded because it was compressed, we would all have chunks of injector pumps all over the engine room.

"You can probably appreciate that if the cylinder is not cooled down before the next compression cycle, the temperature inside the cylinder is going to be rather hot. Thus, when the piston comes up and starts compressing the atomized fuel, it is going to exploded SOONER because the cylinder air temperature is higher. It's a matter of timing. This is bad news because the detonation is going to occur a few nanoseconds before the piston reaches top dead center. This throws the engine timing off and can result in acute loss of power and other serious problems. Like connecting rods through the block."

Atomized fuel is not compressed, it doesn't explode and as far as "timing" is concerned, the less delay in combustion after start of injection the better. The man simply has no idea of how a diesel engine works.

"The bottom line is that the 6V92 and the two cycle engines are substantially more efficient engines ..."

Yeah ... I almost hate to dignify that one with a response.

"Even though the turbo creates extra drag itself, it also allows each cylinder to get a large shot of fuel."

I would love to know how an exhaust driven turbocharger "creates extra drag" on an engine. It converts the work available in what would otherwise be lost as waste heat into increased mass flow of charge air.

"Horse power and torque are two different measures of power. Torque is a measure of the kinetic energy that builds up in a rotating engine."

Torque is a moment of force. It is not power, it is not a measure of power. An electric motor or a reciprocating steam engine for example will produce their highest torque at zero rpm and produce zero power.

"Torque is not a constant, but varies over the power curve, as shown in the graphs for a diesel engine below."

The graphs he provides are engine and propeller power curves and fuel consumption curves. They are not torque curves. He seems not to understand the difference ...

I could go on and on but it really isn't worth the bandwidth or my time.
Rick, That was a good response.

Thanks for posting!
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Old 09-24-2013, 04:13 PM   #16
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Rick, That was a good response.

Thanks for posting!
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Old 09-24-2013, 04:51 PM   #17
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You really want to get a laugh, look at this and wish that Marin were still here to provide some industry "color" ...

Boats, Yachts - Core & Structural Issues: Parallel Universe - Composite Troubles in Aircraft by David Pascoe

The explanation about the "gunk" is hilarious.

"Now look at the gunk or sludge appearing around the inside rivet heads in the plates toward the top, denoted by red arrows. Hard to be sure but it sure looks like a liquid was seeping out around the rivet heads for a long time."

I wonder what Pascoe thinks about installing the "gunk" at the factory?

Think he has ever heard of "faying"?
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Old 09-24-2013, 05:05 PM   #18
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I have to give Pascoe this though, his open criticism of hull lamination that included a non-structural cores was pretty brave. He called many of these boat manufactures out by name with documented examples of structure failure in their decks and hulls.


Unfortunately, his love of several of the East coast boat manufactures was all too obvious for me and over shadowed his credibility.
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Old 09-24-2013, 05:46 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser;

Angus -- A few questions and comments:
  • Where are you located and where will your boat search boundaries be?
    TN and PA; search area will be east of the Rockies
  • Each vessel even though of the same brand can be very different based equipment and prior owner care, maintenance and abuse.
    Right on. Although certain designs really appeal to me, I don't want to just "buy a brand"
  • Do you have a brand, year and budget you are pointing to yet?
    I like some of the Defever models we've seen as well as Krogen 42s. Probably looking at mid to late 80s, but vintage and budget will depend on condition.
  • Are you looking for a fixer upper or already in pristine condition?
    In truth, probably neither. More like a really well maintained boat that can be brought up to near-pristine. We like projects, have restored and built houses and enjoy working on boats . . . just not looking for large projects like engine or tank replacements.
  • Be careful on internet advice including mine.
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Old 09-24-2013, 05:54 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angus99 View Post
  • Where are you located and where will your boat search boundaries be?
    TN and PA; search area will be east of the Rockies
  • Each vessel even though of the same brand can be very different based equipment and prior owner care, maintenance and abuse.
    Right on. Although certain designs really appeal to me, I don't want to just "buy a brand"
  • Do you have a brand, year and budget you are pointing to yet?
    I like some of the Defever models we've seen as well as Krogen 42s. Probably looking at mid to late 80s, but vintage and budget will depend on condition.
  • Are you looking for a fixer upper or already in pristine condition?
    In truth, probably neither. More like a really well maintained boat that can be brought up to near-pristine. We like projects, have restored and built houses and enjoy working on boats . . . just not looking for large projects like engine or tank replacements.
  • Be careful on internet advice including mine.
so far the fuel tanks replacement have been one of the easier and quicker jobs o my old tub....
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