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Old 09-25-2013, 05:49 AM   #21
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The best thing about Pascoe is he can help the dreamer that thinks all boats are wonderful, and cant wait to purchase one , that NOT all boats are as advertised. Some are real crap!

The reality of the work/expen$e required to drag a 30 -40 entry level boat to a cruiser (if ever) is worth the price.

The proper difference between controlled ignition and :an explosion: 2000 times a min is of little interest to the newby.

For any wannabee Pascoe is worth the bucks!! Where else is the info aviliable?
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:36 AM   #22
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Where else is the info aviliable?
Sites like this one where people describe their own experiences with failed, broken, bent, vibrating, non-starting, soft, leaking, overheating, rattling, and peeling bits and pieces.

At least here there is a chance (often slim) of a reasonable discussion when and where opinion butts up against fact.

Pascoe does not invite comment or criticism. He does not respond to corrections and he does not remove patently false statements upon which his followers are expected to act.

At least on sites like this one, the outrageous is challenged so that an opposing view is presented. That is about all anyone can do for reader who expects to obtain working knowledge from a hobbyist group.

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The proper difference between controlled ignition and :an explosion: 2000 times a min is of little interest to the newby.
There ya go ... that is a good example. It should be of great interest as the difference, particularly in the way Pascoe presented it, is how and why a diesel operates smoothly or not, produces smoke, and is the foundation on which the fuel polishing industry has been built. Fuel quality (which has become a euphemism for poor combustion characteristics caused by a number of issues) determines the rate of combustion, the power developed and what comes out the exhaust. That is why it should be of interest.

Those who say it is of little interest or who take little interest in the difference between an explosion and the combustion event shouldn't try to give advice on engine operation.
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:22 AM   #23
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PM me and I will send you a checklist you can condense into a quick list for doing your own evaluations
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:46 AM   #24
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Pascoe's own writings provide the best argument anyone can make about his lack of subject matter expertise in power and propulsion.

And it is fair to hold him to a reasonable standard of accuracy. Years ago when I first read some of the stuff he published I wrote to him with corrections and citations on where to verify my statements. To this date he has not corrected his outlandish errors. He is fair game as far as I am concerned, his writings in this area are so far wrong as to pull into question everything he has published.

Boater beware is my opinion on that particular purveyor of the surveyor's trade.

Rick, that is correct.

I asked you for specific instances, and you provided them. You did a great job of that, thanks very much.

I cannot really defend what he wrote, but I can say that it appears that he attempted to "dumb down" the technical nature of what he was writing about to make it understandable to his readers level of technical expertise.

I have read two of his books, cover to cover, and am glad to have done so. As a boater, whose field of expertise is not boating, I found his books very helpful, in the same way that people read the "for dummies" series of books about something they are interested in.

Rick, it is clear that you have subject matter expertise in some areas related to recreational boating. You might try sometime to write a book about a specific area of your expertise. Thats pretty easy, right? Now try to write the same book so that the average boater will be able to understand it. Thats a little more difficult. Actually its a lot more difficult.

As I indicated before, I do not know Pascoe. I do not necessarially agree with everything he wrote. But, I have been in his shoes, thousands of times over a 30 year career. I am tasked with describing, in writing, an event, or an issue, or a system in my field of expertise to managers who do not share that technical expertise. It is extremely difficult to write something 100% technically accurate, yet understandable to a non technical target audience.
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Old 09-25-2013, 11:09 AM   #25
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You might try sometime to write a book about a specific area of your expertise. Thats pretty easy, right? Now try to write the same book so that the average boater will be able to understand it. Thats a little more difficult. Actually its a lot more difficult.

It is extremely difficult to write something 100% technically accurate, yet understandable to a non technical target audience.
No it's not. I do it here quite frequently. I also have around 6 technical articles per year published in the megayacht press which provide information for general consumption by worldwide readers of all levels of technical literacy.

Trying is the operative word ... Pascoe's work does not indicate any attempt at clarity or accuracy. It is all to often pure opinion masquerading as factual information, biased and uneducated opinion at that.
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Old 09-25-2013, 04:32 PM   #26
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Trying is the operative word ... Pascoe's work does not indicate any attempt at clarity or accuracy. It is all to often pure opinion masquerading as factual information, biased and uneducated opinion at that.
Rick, when you presented real issues that you felt that Pascoe was in error, I thanked you for that effort. Again, you did a good job of that.

You are now professionally attacking Pascoe, instead of pointing out a few errors on his part. Thats a big leap, and one that hopefully you carefully considered before making it.

Pascoe, is/was a professional accredited surveyor for what it appears to be a very long career. You must be more qualified than him, in order to make that kind of accusation.

So Rick

Regarding your direct hands on professional experience on power boats in the <60 foot class, (toy boats to use your words), and the the powerplants found in this size boat.
  • Are you a Accredited marine surveyor?
  • How many marine surveys have you personally completed, on the specific brands, and sizes of boats that Pascoe mentions in his books?
  • Can you provide links to any articles you have personally written about <60' power boats, or their propulsion systems?
  • Do you hold factory certifications on powerplants of the brand and size found in <60' boats?
  • How many forensic surveys have you personally completed to determine the root cause of an engine failure in the powerplants on <60' boats? (Pascoe indicates that he has completed many of these, and documents quite a few of them in his books)
Rick, you made the leap, from pointing out a few errors to professionally attacking Pascoe. Again, I am not defending Pascoe. What I am doing is asking you to show that you have the credentials to support the posts you made regarding his professional work.
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Old 09-25-2013, 04:52 PM   #27
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Old 09-25-2013, 04:53 PM   #28
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That's kinda the rub. I mean what are Pascoe's credentials other than being a professional ? published surveyor for 40 years. That has the "power" to place a "value" on personal assets based on his "opinion".

Just a point !
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Old 09-25-2013, 05:01 PM   #29
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Nice try but baiting me ain't gonna make Pascoe's writings on diesels any less absurd. Attempting to lure me into some internet pissing match isn't going to show Pascoe as a reliable source of technical information.

Anyone can self-publish a book without an editor or fact checker to verify the claims or statements presented in the text. Defend Pascoe's statements if you wish but trying to pull me into a barfight isn't going to get you anywhere.

You are more than welcome to find errors in my rebuttal to Pascoe's tripe if you like. Use all the resources at your disposal to find some ammunition, it will teach you a lot and keep you occupied in a more productive diversion. In the meantime, I don't need your approval to point out nonsense. Unless you are paying for my services, I don't need to provide you with any credential.

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Are you a Accredited marine surveyor?
No, and I am not a self-publisher either.
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Old 09-25-2013, 05:33 PM   #30
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Nice try but baiting me ain't gonna make Pascoe's writings on diesels any less absurd. Attempting to lure me into some internet pissing match isn't going to show Pascoe as a reliable source of technical information.

Anyone can self-publish a book without an editor or fact checker to verify the claims or statements presented in the text. Defend Pascoe's statements if you wish but trying to pull me into a barfight isn't going to get you anywhere.

You are more than welcome to find errors in my rebuttal to Pascoe's tripe if you like. Use all the resources at your disposal to find some ammunition, it will teach you a lot and keep you occupied in a more productive diversion. In the meantime, I don't need your approval to point out nonsense. Unless you are paying for my services, I don't need to provide you with any credential.



No, and I am not a self-publisher either.
Rick

If I were to go on the attack professionally about someone else in the electrical/electronics industry, and if someone were to ask for my credentials to back up those accusations I would be happy to supply them. Thats because I am actually a verifiable expert in my field, with direct hands on expertise, and a "boatload" of industry certifications to quantify that expertise. Experts have that kind of stuff.

Pascoe has claimed to be a surveyor, and claims in his books to be an expert in his field. He indicates that he has performed thousands of surveys on boats and powerplants, and holds generally accepted certifications that one would expect from a surveyor. I may not agree with everything he writes, but he has passed my test as being an expert in his field.

You, professionally attacked him, and when I asked you to show that you were more qualified than him, by demonstrating your expertise in the field, you provided nothing.

So, I will repeat my previous request.

Do you have professional, hands on experience, and certifications showing that you are an expert in the field of mid size power boats (Toy boats), or their propulsion systems?

If you do, please post it here. If you do not, just say it, and not beat around the bush. If you are the expert, please step up to the plate and prove it. And please, make your expertise on actual boats like the ones we all own here on TF, and the ones Pascoe writes about. Megayachts, and big commercial ships do not count, any more than a 747 mechanic is qualified to fix a Cessna.
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Old 09-25-2013, 05:45 PM   #31
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Megayachts, and big commercial ships do not count, any more than a 747 mechanic is qualified to fix a Cessna.

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Old 09-25-2013, 06:40 PM   #32
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Greetings,
My, my...Mr. Rick B. never professed to be an expert on anything that I can recall. He is merely pointing out the error of a number of Pascoes' "truisms", backed with FACTS. This alone calls ALL of Pascoe's statements into question in my mind. I haven't been on Pascoes site for a number of years but from what I remember, he is somewhat of an opinionated prig.
I recently had an insurance survey done by an "accredited" surveyor. Well, nice fellow but I would be VERY hesitant to leave the dock in a rowboat he OK'd. I paid the man and got my insurance renewed. Now, again from what I remember, if I had Pascoe do the survey (he doesn't like my brand) I'd still be on the hard pouring money into a perfectly good vessel to meet HIS arbitrary standards. Probably based on AYBC suggestions.-NOT standards!
I hold a certain "expert" who writes for Passagemaker Magazine in the same regard as Pascoe. Both too full of themselves to be of any value or notice to the average toy boat owner.
Difference between a collision and an explosion?
A collision occurs and there you are.
An explosion occurs and where are you?
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Old 09-25-2013, 08:40 PM   #33
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Southern truism re Pascoe: Often wrong but never in doubt !
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Old 09-25-2013, 09:06 PM   #34
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Has anyone seen Pascoe on a Forum giving and taking point counter point on issues? If so, please let me know so I can log on.

I will be the first to admit I found Pascoe's early articles interesting. But as with most things scholarly, those who successfully get involved with serious issues matriculate past grade school.
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Old 09-25-2013, 09:43 PM   #35
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Old 09-25-2013, 09:45 PM   #36
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I think that, no matter what the subject, you can find information, (in print) that is no different that what you find in internet forums today. There are just as many books full of bullshit (or that turned out to be that way), I don't see how the interweb has changed things that much. Goto the library... You'll see. You still have to siphon through it.
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Old 09-26-2013, 12:39 AM   #37
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Pasco's incorrect some times. Everyone's incorrect some times. He has published a lot of items helpful to new boaters. He also has plenty on the net for those becoming interested in boating... to get their feet wet so to say! Many of his items are fairly interesting; some on point, some not. Heís quite prolific about his experiences with pleasure boats... and, what he writes ainít all bad! Letís leave this rest!
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Old 09-26-2013, 01:03 AM   #38
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Anybody familiar with "Mid-Size Power Boats"? Pricey as hell, but worth t?

I'm looking for resources that I can use to build a pre-survey checklist and generally get better educated. When we start looking seriously for our first trawler next year, I'd rather use my time to weed out DOA boats before hiring a pro.

I have this link by a surveyor, which I think will be useful: Marine Survey 101, how to do your own marine survey

Just looking for additional resources. Thanks.
Sooo, as shocking as it sounds you might have noticed opinions are varied about Pascoe's collective works. As a newbie to larger power boats I found his website useful in familiarizing myself with various choices and generally good information. It really taught me what questions to ask while setting me hip to how complicated or simple these boats can be. Like all advice, especially mine, run it through the BS filter between your ears and do your best. No one source(website, book, etc...) has all the answers you seek and even if it did the details will always be debatable.

Frankly I haven't given Pascoe much thought beyond my initial preliminary research so on that basis alone purchasing his work in book format would be of no use for me. Some folks learn and absorb information differently though so what works for one is not always right for someone else.

Good luck in your search.
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Old 09-26-2013, 06:25 AM   #39
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The gentleman from Seward illuminated something I had never really thought much about before reading a post in which he intimated that people who derive an income from maintaining big things are not qualified to comment on smaller things.

Most people are probably aware that big ships carry lifeboats but maybe some of those folks never consider that the engineers on those ships operate and maintain the engines that power those lifeboats. There is quite a range of propulsion engines installed on lifeboats and the "fast rescue boats" that are now required to be carried, and it is a fair bet that most readers will recognize the engines listed in the CG document "USCG ACCEPTED LIFEBOAT/RESCUE BOAT. ENGINES"linked below:

http://tinyurl.com/ob229go


Not to mention that big ships (and megayachts) are universally fitted with emergency diesel generators powered by engines supplied by Cummins, Cat, Perkins, DD, MTU, and many other manufacturers in sizes from 4 cylinders upward that would be instantly be recognized by most recreational boaters.

The ever growing size of yachts at the upper end of the scale means that many, if not most, now carry or tow a tender that is the same size and are powered by the same engines as most of the boats represented on this forum. Those yachts, super or mega or just ordinary, carry a host of single cylinder diesel engines, 2-stoke gas engines and 4 stroke gas engines. Something has to power the portable pumps, jetskis, outboard powered crew tenders and diesel powered RIBS, limousine tenders, and all the other things that go along with upscale yachting these days.

All the machinery, engines, hulls, icemakers, refrigerators, watermakers, generators, electrical systems and all the other stuff found on a yacht and its tenders or toys are maintained the same way yours is. For the most part, there are few components that are not the same make and model found on many of the boats seen in the avatars on this site.

And in case anyone was wondering, diesel fuel doesn't know if it is being burned in a Lehman 120 or a 4000 hp MTU ... it's all the same to a hydrocarbon molecule.

Some of us even own, operate, and maintain the same kind of boats the rest of the members here own and operate. I am certain that there are more than a few "747 mechanics" who build their own aircraft and are eminently qualified and certificated to provide superb service to any Cessna product.
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Old 09-26-2013, 06:27 AM   #40
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Like all advice . . . run it through the BS filter between your ears and do your best. No one source(website, book, etc...) has all the answers you seek and even if it did the details will always be debatable.
I appreciate everybody's perspectives; CP, this is the kind of balanced advice I needed. I'll pass on Pascoe's book for now, and will weigh what I see on his website against other sources. Now, it's off to Trawlerfest.
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