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Old 01-13-2016, 10:20 AM   #1
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Paravanes F/S

I am considering installing paravanes on my trawler. Read Beebee's chapter on Stabilization and have an engineer looking at load factors etc. Perused the internet/forums and information regarding rigging and parts is fairly sketchy. Kolstrand has the fish and holders. If anyone has installed these passive stabilizers I would be most appreciative of any information.
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Old 01-13-2016, 12:01 PM   #2
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You might want to send a PM to Wxx3 who I believe had them installed on his KK42.

I always thought Pilgrims were coastal cruisers until I read that Papillon had stabilizers.
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Old 01-13-2016, 12:11 PM   #3
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I agree search on Wxx3, he did a nice research documentation of passive stabilizers. He might even have it on his blog.
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Old 01-13-2016, 12:18 PM   #4
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Thx
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Old 01-13-2016, 12:19 PM   #5
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Thx...mine is the 43...the 40 is the most popular. Only made 3 of these
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Old 01-13-2016, 01:51 PM   #6
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Have you thought where you're going to mount the poles? Ours are mounted just below the cap rail but we have walk-around side decks. A few 40' Nordhavn's have the mounting for the poles at the edge of the boat deck.

The loading is huge when the paravanes are deployed and the engineering and design is critical. Our design has A-frame that helps distribute the load and helps manage the compression.

A Navel architect could help since paravanes are pretty much a custom fit per boat.
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Old 01-13-2016, 02:00 PM   #7
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I have installed on a pilot house trawler. Additionally I have fished on several commercial trollers that use this system. In general there are several things you may wish to consider in designing the system. Generally the poles and supports are located very close to the area of maximum beam. For example is the beam is 12 feet then the in the water fish should be 12 feet from the boat so that the the distance are 12 feet port fish to boat, boat beam, 12 feet starboard fish to boat. It is very important the the boat have adequate hard points in order to carry the load of in the fish in the water. I have seen under engineered boats suffer structural damage to roof tops and other areas from this load. There are several other considerations that you will need to explore such as haul back system, forward stay design, use of grasshopper legs and stowing of equipment. As always, work with folks that have experience in design and installation.
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Old 01-13-2016, 02:07 PM   #8
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Yes he did.
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Old 01-13-2016, 02:14 PM   #9
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Additionally, this is truly not a passive system and is probably miss named in that the load on the boat is a dynamic load.
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:11 PM   #10
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I have looked at installing several times. I have the fish poles and a basic design idea for installing. However the modification of the mast super strecture is required. I did install a new thick wall aluminum mast with install them. There are several commercial trawlers that have them, that I can have used as a reference. Finding a qualified engineer or person is hard to find. So if I were to install it would be basically copying an existing set up

Also it would be a some what reduced hybrid, in that the poles would be short about 10 ft. The reason is to keep the angle of support more of a straight on pull. The larger the angle the more the pull. A sail boat rigger is a good reference as to angles and mounting. The small angle of a sail boat rigging is to keep the stress as low as possible.

Also you might want to look at the boats roll ride. A comfort roll is 4 to 8 seconds. Shorter roll make the roll snappy and to long makes it feel unstable. So before you do anything avaluate the ride and other methods of stabalizing. Besides they make the boat uglier.
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Old 01-13-2016, 07:30 PM   #11
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Wxx3 had his installed while docked behind my store so I got to watch. He used high tech rope for the rigging. That looked like a good idea to me as it made it easier to adjust than if he had used cable rigging.
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Old 01-13-2016, 08:46 PM   #12
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Figure your roll period first then go from there. Longer poles equal smaller fish, shorter (thicker) poles-bigger fish. Same load on the boat. Needs to be on a major structural bulkhead. Very easy to calculate the roll moment (speed) of the paravane square inch/weight thru the water if you know the roll speed and then you can calculate the forces transfered to the hull/boat. Not simple. Err on the big side. Your boat probably cant handle really good paravanes.
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Old 01-13-2016, 10:01 PM   #13
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Wxx3 had his installed while docked behind my store so I got to watch. He used high tech rope for the rigging. That looked like a good idea to me as it made it easier to adjust than if he had used cable rigging.
I didn't. The rigger did. One of the top sail boat riggers in Miami.

Love what he designed and installed.
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Old 01-13-2016, 10:16 PM   #14
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I owned a P-40 for several years on east coast and did not think it was suited for big open water for several reasons including significant roll. If It were me I would go with a gyroscopic stabilizer there the engineering and load characteristics are more clear cut. You don't need the poles and increased weight aloft which might increase roll when not deployed. For coastal use the fish are a problem in shallow congested areas and where there are traps a gyro no problem.
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Old 01-14-2016, 07:31 AM   #15
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Thanks Larry...seen Hobo on numerous occasions. I have to locate the poles on the upper deck because I have no walk-around. Engineer looking at loading factors etc. I have a substantial mast so a lot of the work is already there. You wouldn't happen to have created a parts list, design, or cost analysis?
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Old 01-14-2016, 08:35 AM   #16
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Quote:
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...I have a substantial mast so a lot of the work is already there. You wouldn't happen to have created a parts list, design, or cost analysis?
Ian
Scott on Sealife (who's cruising out side the US) did an almost exact duplicate of what we have. Complete and installed was less than $10K. He did the purchasing/installation and had a fabricator weld all the aluminum. Everything was off the shelf. The 2 poles are 20' of 3" schedule 80 Al and the A-frame is 3.5" schedule Al.

Your biggest issue will be reinforcing the boat deck and how to deal with the compression on the mast. Most of the masts on our boats, do not carry all the way to the keel and/or have compression posts. As Old Deckhand mentioned, you can do some damage to the boat deck and other areas if you skimp on design.

Sorry no parts list or design. They were all lost in a fire when the original designers boat burned. If you go through the archives I've posted of pictures of the design.
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Old 01-14-2016, 09:13 AM   #17
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Thanks Larry...we are being very careful and diligent with the load on the mast which is quite significant. I was hoping it would be much less than 10K!! What is the search parameters in the archives for your diagrams?
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Old 01-14-2016, 09:47 AM   #18
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Ian: Sorry, no diagrams, just some pictures and discussions. Try using the "search" tab at the top of the page and "advanced search". Put in paravanes and try putting in my user name.
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Old 01-14-2016, 10:31 AM   #19
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Might take a walk down a commercial dock to get some ideas. I bought the fish and poles from a commercial for scrap value. Since most commercial do not have super structure mid ship they are mounted to the gunnel which is 3 to 5 ft off the water so I would mount to the hull just under the gunnels as the super structure is not strong enough. So only the mast support would have to be strengthened

Wire rope would be used for the pole rigging so adjustments could be made so a sail boat rigger could be used. So its the mast support is the primary concern, not the side support. Since the Eagle roll ride is comfortable para vanes would only be added if we decided to go down the coast, which is not in our plans. However the Eagle was designed to be a coastal cruiser and been up down the coast several times.

Rather than fish I have also looked at fixed bilge keels which would also dampen the roll since the Eagle is round soft chine. Some commercial also have them. I almost had them installed several years ago. I would install them before the fish.
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Old 01-14-2016, 11:42 AM   #20
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Thanks Phil
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