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Old 01-09-2012, 08:46 PM   #41
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RE: Our "new" boat

Quote:
Woodsong wrote:
*What exactly does one mean when they say a "solid" boat...?
*

*

The only way a comparison like this makes any sense is if you compare new to new. Because any boat--- even a Fleming or Nordhavn--- can be reduced to rubbish by misuse and neglect.

So from my perspective, a "solid" boat--- it that's even a valid term--- is one whose construction is just that--- solid.* In a fiberglass boat, to me this means a solid glass hull, stout superstructure construction, proven and reliable engines and running gear, and high-quality components, from anchor windlass to steering gear to door handles.

I would not find the photo Rick posted of the cut-open Bayliner hull very reassuring if I knew it was typical of the hull construction of the type of boat I had regardless of whether it was a Bayliner, Grand Banks, Fleming, or the Nimitz.

I don't have figures but from observation over the past twenty-five-plus years of boating here I would say that Bayliner--- including the*larger models---*is the most popular (by number) make of boat up here.* That doesn't happen if the product has a reputation for poor quality and unreliability.* On the other hand, money is money and not everyone can afford a Fleming.* So a Bayliner, "solid" or not, has a ton of appeal to a huge number of boaters.

Bayliners do nothing for me aesthetically. For that reason alone I would never consider acquiring one.* But aesthetics are totally subjective and what one person likes another person may not like.* It has nothing to do with quality.* I think Nordhavns suck, too, every one of them, in terms of their lines and they are supposed to be one of the most "solid" boats out there.* There is no right or wrong when it comes to subjective things like design aesthetics except in the mind of the individual beholder.

It sounds to me like you (Tony) bought the boat you did for a bunch of good reasons.* And based on the few Bayliner owners I have talked to, I suspect you will get every bit of use and enjoyment out of your boat as the people who use and enjoy all the other brands of boats.
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Old 01-09-2012, 09:27 PM   #42
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RE: Our "new" boat

Quote:
markpierce wrote:
My impression of GBs: SOLID!
*I, being a previous GB owner always thought of Grand Banks as " solid" boats too... Right up to the time I was in the engine room of a Brand new Europa in the late 90's. It was a very sunny day, the port side was in direct sunlight. I was really surprised I could actually see the brokers shadow when he put his hand on the outside of the hull!. I rapped on the hull and it was way less solid than I would of ever thought.* Even though the hull appeared thin I have never heard of a GB hull failure.

My neighbor in the marina has a Bayliner 4588, I had never spent much time around the larger bayliners and I will say I am impressed with his.

HOLLYWOOD
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Old 01-09-2012, 09:46 PM   #43
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Our "new" boat

Quote:
hollywood8118 wrote:*I was really surprised I could actually see the brokers shadow when he put his hand on the outside of the hull!.
*This is partly the result of having a solid fiberglass hull as opposed to a cored hull.* Light, particularly strong light, can find it's way through some pretty thick fiberglass if that's all there is that the light has to get through.

Our hull was made in 1973 under the direct supervision of Howard Abbey who not only*designed and built the original molds for the*GB36 and GB42 but also*oversaw the layup of every GB fiberglass hull from the inception of fiberglass at American Marine in mid-1973 to Abbey's departure from the company in mid 1974.* It is said by people in a position to know that Howard Abbey's hulls are the strongest (you can probably substitute "overbuilt"and "heaviest"*here, too) hulls the GB line has ever had.

We broke a heavy bronze*pumpout fitting off the side of our hull a year or so after acquiring the boat by hitting a battleship-sized cleat on a dock at Deer Harbor.* The fitting was torn out of the hull but was held by the plumbing connected to it.* The collision was hard enough to bend the thick flange of the bronze*fitting back 90 degrees. *

Expecting the worst I got off the boat to check the damage.* There was a tiny scuff* in the hull where the flange that had bent back had "dug" into the fiberglass before bending.* That was it.* The hull wasn't even dented, just scuffed.

This fitting is attached to the side of the hull*outside the engine room*below the rub strip.* While I didn't think to measure it, the thickness of the hull at that height above the waterline was equivelent to at a bit more than the length of the*first joint of my forefinger.* So at least an inch thick and probably a bit more. But when I'm in the engine room on a sunny day, I can see a bit of a glow of light through the side of the engine room where*it hasn't been painted.

I have no idea how Abbey's 1973-74*hulls compare in thickness and layup to later Grand Banks models.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 9th of January 2012 11:49:10 PM
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:05 PM   #44
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RE: Our "new" boat

"Exactly what does one mean when they say "solid" boat...?"

In a word * HEAVY

Eric
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:02 PM   #45
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RE: Our "new" boat

Nice choice Tony. As others have said, the pilothouse Bayliners 45-47 are extremely popular up here. They are great for cruising the inside passage from what I here along the docks. For a costal cruiser I don't think you can do better for the money or creature comforts and great layout you get with these models. Best wished on your deal.
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:03 PM   #46
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Our "new" boat

Haven't detected any light coming through the Coot's steel*hull yet.
<table class="genmed" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tbody><tr><td width="100">*</td><td width="40"></td></tr></tbody></table>
*


-- Edited by markpierce on Tuesday 10th of January 2012 01:12:39 AM
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:10 PM   #47
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RE: Our "new" boat

Quote:
RickB wrote:ksanders wrote:
Its clear, both our bias's are coming through in this discussion.
The pictures don't show any bias, they show the difference between high quality construction and ... Bayliner construction.*

The quality construction shows proper wetting of the matt and excellent bonding of the core along with good fill of the grid that is required to achieve good structural integrity.

I'm sure you will have a blast on your boat, I am not trying to run it down but since you posted a picture that purports to represent quality construction I have no qualms in doing the same.

*

*Rick, even though we don't agree about Bayliners this has been a wonderful conversation.

Could you do me a favor?

You seem to be well versed with recreational trawlers.
Could you post a photo or two of your personal boat? Not a boat you work on, or a deep submersable. Could you post a photo of the boat you personally own?

This is important to me so that I can gain some understanding of just what a quality built trawler is. I'm sure you own the best, please post the model, and some photos of your personal trawler, the one you own.

Thanks...Kevin
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Old 01-10-2012, 02:51 AM   #48
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RE: Our "new" boat

Bayliner--- including the larger models--- is the most popular (by number) make of boat up here. That doesn't happen if the product has a reputation for poor quality and unreliability.

Their low cost is passed on to the next low buck owner, which maintains their popularity and "value"..

A boat that would cost 3X the price (and be worth it) can only be passed on at a far lower percentage return to the first l purchaser , as the next purchaser of an expensive boat will usually have the bucks to purchase new.

Same with Chevvies and Caddys .

Small Bayliners will be usually on their 5th owner at 10 years , and cost minor bucks , for someone that can put an engine in it.
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Old 01-10-2012, 04:32 AM   #49
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RE: Our "new" boat

Quote:
ksanders wrote:Could you post a photo or two of your personal boat? Not a boat you work on, or a deep submersable. Could you post a photo of the boat you personally own?
This is important to me so that I can gain some understanding of just what a quality built trawler is. I'm sure you own the best, please post the model, and some photos of your personal trawler, the one you own.
*It's a 1987 CHB 48' CMY. Let me repeat here, for your benefit, what I wrote in the "looking for" thread:

"Some people like anchovies, some people throw up at the thought of them. Some people think my CHB represents the bottom of the trawler barrel, that opinion effects me less than the price of anchovies."

But, since you asked, my hull is solid all the way from the keel to the gunwale. It has the traditional soft spots on the deck that I will get around to fixing one day ... or not depending on how much I feel like working on it.*

I know what you are trying to do but it isn't going to discredit me or my observations. I chose my boats (the other is a Zodiac RIB center console) by whim, price, availability, and opportunity ... pretty much like other people. If I wanted the highest quality ever built I wouldn't own one because I would never be able to afford to buy or or maintain it. My personal boat has nothing whatsoever to do with the build standard shown in the photo you posted of a failed Bayliner hull.

Ordinarily I might say "nice try" but it isn't. It is a cheap shot attempt to make the topic personal rather than just talk about what those photos show anyone who knows what they are looking at.

You posted that picture because you believed it showed high quality construction. That photo came from a Bayliner fan site and was posted by another person who didn't know what he was looking at either and believed it showed high quality rather than dry layup, poor bonds, and inadequate resin fill of the grid.

I posted a photograph that shows how a quality layup fares in a similar casualty. I showed how even though the outer layer was ripped off, the core was intact and the bond did not fail. It shows the grid cuts filled properly so that they contribute to strength, not just volume.

Like I wrote before, those pictures do not show personal bias, they show the difference between high quality and economical construction.
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Old 01-10-2012, 05:39 AM   #50
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RE: Our "new" boat

Careful you guys.
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Old 01-10-2012, 06:22 AM   #51
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Our "new" boat

Quote:
RickB wrote:
*It's a 1987 CHB 48' CMY. Let me repeat here, for your benefit, what I wrote in the "looking for" thread:

"Some people like anchovies, some people throw up at the thought of them. Some people think my CHB represents the bottom of the trawler barrel, that opinion effects me less than the price of anchovies."

But, since you asked, my hull is solid all the way from the keel to the gunwale. It has the traditional soft spots on the deck that I will get around to fixing one day ... or not depending on how much I feel like working on it.*

I know what you are trying to do but it isn't going to discredit me or my observations. I chose my boats (the other is a Zodiac RIB center console) by whim, price, availability, and opportunity ... pretty much like other people. If I wanted the highest quality ever built I wouldn't own one because I would never be able to afford to buy or or maintain it. My personal boat has nothing whatsoever to do with the build standard shown in the photo you posted of a failed Bayliner hull.

Ordinarily I might say "nice try" but it isn't. It is a cheap shot attempt to make the topic personal rather than just talk about what those photos show anyone who knows what they are looking at.

You posted that picture because you believed it showed high quality construction. That photo came from a Bayliner fan site and was posted by another person who didn't know what he was looking at either and believed it showed high quality rather than dry layup, poor bonds, and inadequate resin fill of the grid.

I posted a photograph that shows how a quality layup fares in a similar casualty. I showed how even though the outer layer was ripped off, the core was intact and the bond did not fail. It shows the grid cuts filled properly so that they contribute to strength, not just volume.

Like I wrote before, those pictures do not show personal bias, they show the difference between high quality and economical construction.

*Rick

I apologize if that sounded personal. I'm just trying to qualify your expertise in bayliners construction methods. It appears that you are in the maritime industry and I respect that.

I have no idea of the photo I posted other than it came from a web site and reportedly shows the hull thickness of the Bayliner 4788 MY.

I'm assuming that your comments are all based on that one photo and do not indicate any direct knowledge of Bayliners quality or construction methods or techniques.

If you have direct knowledge of Bayliners either as a marine surveyor, having attended surveys on many Bayliners over the years, or as a small yacht engineer with direct knowledge of Bayliner boats, please post it.

The reason*for the request*is to:*

*1. Determine if there are problems (other than the photo I supplied) with Bayliner yachts that I should be aware of as an owner.

2. Determine your knowledge and varacity regarding Bayliner boats.

*


-- Edited by ksanders on Tuesday 10th of January 2012 08:23:02 AM
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Old 01-10-2012, 06:35 AM   #52
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RE: Our "new" boat

Nice boat the 45-49's are awesome, I owned a 32 Bayliner MY for 6 years and just recently bought a 48 Californian. My Bay was as quality as any boat in the marina for the price point. Every system on board was the same as is on board my Californian albeit the Bay had gas engines and a gas genny. If it had not been that the Californian was so right and also bank owned I probably would have ended up with a Bay 45. As far as solid, I spent 22 years in the Navy and 16 of them at sea and there is no boat or ship that is solid. Mute point IMO. Most of us will not be dealing with serious seas on a normal or regular basis and if you do it's time to go see a doctor. Not all but most people who bash on Bayliners are just mad cause they spent more money than needed. Remember Brunswick owns Bayliner as well as Cabo, Sea Ray, Hatteras, Boston Whaler etc. so It all comes down to pricepoint. How much are you willing to spend. Thanks for letting me rant, I'm down off my soapbox now.
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Old 01-10-2012, 07:15 AM   #53
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RE: Our "new" boat

Quote:
ksanders wrote:*1. Determine if there are problems (other than the photo I supplied) with Bayliner yachts that I should be aware of as an owner.
2. Determine your knowledge and varacity regarding Bayliner boats.*


I have no* knowledge of problems specific to Bayliners that are not shared by other production boats.

There are very few problems specific to any one brand of boat. Bayliner has earned its reputation the same way*as GB and Nordhavn or CHB. I am not responsible for that and I did not start a thread to trash Bayliners. As a matter of fact my mention of them along with Broward was the first time for either to the best of my recollection.

The photo you posted shows an example of*substandard construction. I pointed out why*that is so and posted a photo showing*high quality construction.*That is simply reality, it is not editorializing or picking on a particular brand.

But, since the issue seems to be such a touchy one, here is the bottom line. Many people have stressed the point that Bayliners are fitted with the same equipment as other more expensive boats yet sell for far less. That means the profit is made by economy of construction and that is clearly shown in your photograph.
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Old 01-10-2012, 07:24 AM   #54
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RE: Our "new" boat

Hey Tony,

I just read your post about your recent Bayliner acquisition..... congratulations. I know that you have been really wanting the extra space and the layout provided by the Bayliner. I am sure sure you will enjoy it. I will be looking forward to reading about your adventures on your blog!!!
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Old 01-10-2012, 07:28 AM   #55
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RE: Our "new" boat

Ok guys. Let's not let this discussion out of hand. I truly appreciate the comments both pro and con. We're happy to have a larger boat, didn't mean to get into a big discussion and hopefully I personally have not come across as trying say my boat is better than yours or your boat is worse than mine or my boat is built the best, etc. b/c that is certainly not my intent. I truly was just sharing our new purchase. This is a 25 year old boat- she is decidedly not perfect. Interior we will do some interior soft goods updates and we have some mechanical stuff we will tend to. We looked hard for a 45-50' traditional trawler with 3 staterooms, no teak decks, good upper and lower helms, etc. and just didn't come up with anything that struck our fancy at the price we wanted to be at. We actually had made a bid on a defever 49 that was bank owned just prior to doing this deal but we got slightly outbid so such is life. She should be a good boat for us (hopefully!)- maybe not the most notable pedigree but that is ok- she will suit us just fine. She was at a good price and a decent layout that will work til we get our next boat. If nothing else, from this thread I have walked away with a mental note to be sure and NOT hit a reef anywhere anytime soon and then I don't have to worry about how much resin is or is not in the layup. At least I am not buying a houseboat.

I am all for discussing build quality of different boats and what constitutes a solid boat- b/c as I said, I truly have pondered the same question in my mind. In the end, I think I agree with Eric that weight really can be a good indication of "solid." No "solid" boat will be without issues and my new boat certainly will have her own. The brand name of the boat will certainly turn some people off unfortunately, that is the entire reason they spun the larger boats off and created Meridian- just so they could separate themselves from the stigma of the entry level bowriders with the bad reputation. There are things on the construction of the 45 we are buying that i would change and they did change on the later 47's (such as I have 1.5" shafts instead of 2" shafts on the 47) but really- for what i am going to be doing with the boat, she will certainly be more than serviceable. What I do know is that a larger boat, whether it were a trawler, a sea ray express, houseboat, barge, or whatever, will increase our ability to comfortably stay aboard for 2-3 weeks at a time with 2 young children under 10 and our medium sized dog. She will work just fine for cruising the river system and who knows, if we are blessed with the time to do it, poke her nose back down to FL for a winter. I found it interesting to see that she actually started her life in Maine where she was for a long time, then she was cruised to FL and then up the TN River system a few years ago where she has been since.
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Old 01-10-2012, 07:38 AM   #56
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RE: Our "new" boat

Over the years only 4 people (regulars)*come to mind on this Forum that have actually as a profession*designed boats and systems, worked with their hands as managers of foreman or*leadhand boat repairers and/or owned and operated repair yards.
<ul>[*]Mike[*]FF[*]Rickb[*]CElectric[/list]Who am I missing?

The rest of us just pontificate, spend boat related $$, state opinions as if they are facts, are absolutely steadfast that our vessel is the best and live like Walter Mitty.

Most well regarded professionals avoid Fourms like this because it opens them up to sniping from the field hands. Thanks to the above 4 (please who have I missed??) we get lots of incisive and accurate information.
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Old 01-10-2012, 07:48 AM   #57
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RE: Our "new" boat

Quote:
RickB wrote:ksanders wrote:*1. Determine if there are problems (other than the photo I supplied) with Bayliner yachts that I should be aware of as an owner.
2. Determine your knowledge and varacity regarding Bayliner boats.*

I have no* knowledge of problems specific to Bayliners that are not shared by other production boats.

There are very few problems specific to any one brand of boat. Bayliner has earned its reputation the same way*as GB and Nordhavn or CHB. I am not responsible for that and I did not start a thread to trash Bayliners. As a matter of fact my mention of them along with Broward was the first time for either to the best of my recollection.

The photo you posted shows an example of*substandard construction. I pointed out why*that is so and posted a photo showing*high quality construction.*That is simply reality, it is not editorializing or picking on a particular brand.

But, since the issue seems to be such a touchy one, here is the bottom line. Many people have stressed the point that Bayliners are fitted with the same equipment as other more expensive boats yet sell for far less. That means the profit is made by economy of construction and that is clearly shown in your photograph.
*Very good Rick

so, we have determined that:

1. I like Bayliner boats, and am clearly biased in favor of them.

2. Your comments about Bayliner boats (in this thread and in the "full displacement thread")*are based entirely on the single photo I posted, and are not based on any first hand experience or knowledge*of the brand.

Rick,*I respect your obvious maritime knowledge and experience. I would invite you to take a tour of my boat and gain some first hand knowledge of it. That way you could form an honest factual opinion of the construction. I'll even buy lunch. I would love to hear your comments on the boat after you look it over.
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:00 AM   #58
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RE: Our "new" boat

Kevin

I love your point 2, assuming that members have never been on a Bayliner. For the record, my Bayliner foot trips and repairs*started about*37 years ago and have continued unabated.
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:06 AM   #59
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RE: Our "new" boat

This could go on ad nauseum and I am really getting tired of it but before I drop it let me state my final thoughts.

1. OK, you are biased in favor of Bayliners. Thank you for that information. I am happy when a boat owner is happy.

2. Your assumption is far from my reality. I have been on and around enough Bayliners over the years to make up my own mind and have no qualms about expressing my opinion pro or con just like anyone else. I did not single handedly create the Bayliner reputation nor have I made any effort to contribute to it. I just told you what I saw in a photograph.

I can tour boats all day long and either like the fit and finsh or not and what I would take away would have little meaning other than how it impacts me emotionally. If I had that same boat in the yard and observed hull damage or the results of a mechanical or electrical problem I could provide an objective appraisal of the system or component I observed.

If you permit me to take a hull core from your boat I would be happy to let you know how it compares to other boats recognized in the industry for the quality of their construction.

You posted a photograph of a hull failure. I gave my objective, professional appraisal of what that photograph illustrates. I provided a similar photograph to illustrate what should have been seen. Take it or leave it, it cost you nothing and since it is not my boat or my client's I don't "have a dog in that fight" and am completely disinterested in how that appraisal is used or interpreted by anyone else.
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:10 PM   #60
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RE: Our "new" boat

Well...the deal is done and closed and she is now ours. I now own over 100 feet of boats! I pray my wife never does the math and realizes that!!
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