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Old 10-17-2014, 05:50 PM   #21
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And I'm the bad boy bozo...wow.....

just goes to show you....

I have dozens of slides of Orcas through out the inland passage and Antarctica....useless??? Well...there's plenty of things on this planet that some consider useless....
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Old 10-17-2014, 07:06 PM   #22
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Orca are part of a very interconnected system here on earth.

Humans seem to be the odd man out !

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Old 10-17-2014, 08:54 PM   #23
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Beautiful to watch but Mother Earth probably wouldn't miss them much if they were to become extinct.
I think Mother Earth would miss the Orcas going extinct a lot more than she'd miss us going extinct. I would, too. And since the possibility of man disappearing seems to be getting slightly better with each passing day, perhaps she and I will both have our opinions eventually become reality.

I put a lot more value on a whale than on a human. Humans are just animals with a dictionary. We're it not for the dictionary, humans would be pretty much the most valueless animal on the planet in the universal scheme of things, at least in my opinion.

Right now the earth can ill-afford to lose a whale. But the earth would be infinitely better off if it could lose three quarters or more of its humans. I suspect that, one way or the other, this will eventually happen. The balance of life on this planet has been correcting itself since day one. I see no reason to think that the corrections will not continue.
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Old 10-17-2014, 09:00 PM   #24
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Do you know about that OFB?

What would change if Orca's suddenly disappeared.

I'll start ... there would be a lot less poo in the PNW waters and more seals and salmon. However the Orca's poo is probably fly stuff compared to the humpback's contribution. And that's probably fly stuff compared to the discharges from cruise ships.
Some businesses would find better things to do than harass wildlife.


Marin,
Humans beyond any reasonable doubt have a very negative "value" on this earth.

But what would actually change?
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Old 10-17-2014, 09:12 PM   #25
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What would change if Orca's suddenly disappeared.
A big part of the wonder of living on this planet would disappear, and our lives would be less fulfilled for it.

If I see you walking down the street I am not only not going to care, but my seeing you is not going to make my experience on this planet one iota better.

When we see a whale in the islands, or an eagle, an otter, or a deer, our experience on this planet becomes a lot more meaningful, enjoyable, and valuable to us.
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Old 10-17-2014, 10:10 PM   #26
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So Marin I'm hearing you say the value of Orca's is in the warm and fuzzy feelings of the most worthless animal on earth. Man of course.

You're talking about whales and deer and eagles. Where's the talk about bugs ... and insects. They have a lot more to do with human well being than whales.
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Old 10-17-2014, 11:38 PM   #27
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So Marin I'm hearing you say the value of Orca's is in the warm and fuzzy feelings of the most worthless animal on earth. Man of course.

You're talking about whales and deer and eagles. Where's the talk about bugs ... and insects. They have a lot more to do with human well being than whales.

I believe the Orca has it's own part in the marine ecosystem, as do the seals, dolphin, salmon. Stating that the planet would be no worse without any of them appears to be a pretty shallow view.. kind of surprises me that anybody that enjoys the marine environment and all it has to offer would have that point of view.
And don't for one minute think I am any form of raging environmentalist.. my likes are diesel burning boats, fast cars, guns and killing and eating any delicacy that happens to find it's way to the end of my spear gun.
As far as the whale watch business I do have a personal connection with it and feel strongly that it is worth while as both a business.. and a way for the public to get up close and personal with the Orca's.. which in turn has helped to both provide all kinds of public supported funds for marine research.
Just to be able to watch the Orca up close and realize the close family bond in the pods are an amazing this to experience.

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Old 10-18-2014, 06:20 AM   #28
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You're talking about whales and deer and eagles. Where's the talk about bugs ... and insects.
I think they're all important and have a role to play. Man in his arrogant ignorance tends to look at other forms of life only in how they might effect him. But there's a lot more going on here than just man.

In fact more I hear, see, and learn about man's effect on just about everything, the more convinced I'm becoming that nature picked the wrong animal to periodically control its population by conducting mass migrations that result in severe cullings of the numbers. Instead of the lemmings running their surplus population to death, I'm thinking it should be us.

And I suspect that at some point, it will be. In some way or the other.
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Old 10-18-2014, 09:26 AM   #29
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Great observation Marin,

And how can it not be us at some point?

The dinosaurs lasted 180 million years.
Humans have been here at most 1 million, homo sapiens less then half of that.
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Old 10-18-2014, 11:08 AM   #30
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And the ant has had his social structure intact for 160 million years.

And re Marin's comments (excellent) man's time on earth may be quite temporary and his efforts to survive lacking objectivity.
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Old 10-18-2014, 12:52 PM   #31
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Eric you do not truly believe if we humans kill off Orca there will end up being more salmon ?

I do agree that when we kill off the wolf , the tiger, the bears we will be left eating ants, probably flying fire ants at that.

Using salmon as an example its humans that have devastated there population. Not just in consumption but devastating the environment needed to reproduce. Fact.

We know that by killing off parts of any ecosystem the system begins to fail. fact

We also know that humans have the ability to change the world quickly today, to unbalance what took millions of years. Fact

I am yet not sold that our way is the better way for the planet and or humans. Fact

I am old and grumpy and fortunate to have seen what I have. Orca beside the boat looking up at us while we looked down. Watched them hunt through Rock Bay. Fished beside them off Sooke. Sad that most will only ever see such from the comfort of there condo in the sky. After work or while on the computer paying bills for a break.

To sit off the west side of Vancouver island in a boat, power off at night and hear the blows the smell of the breath of a couple of humpback whales. Watch the tail of a gray whale rise before you just take's my breath away.

I would miss the seals that entertain us here at the marina.

Eric what is your vision, if you find little value in what we have ?
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Old 10-18-2014, 03:43 PM   #32
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OFB,
Your words have moved me and I must confess I've overstated myself to make a point and then failed. I appreciate the wildlife as just about as much as anybody but hate to see so much (way too much IMO) attention on only the powerful and magnificent here on earth.

But the damage man has done to the ecosystem is another matter .. one that he will pay for dearly. We should spend more time and money on the wildlife that supports the earth and less on what entertains man. The whales and tigers are few but the ants and spiders are many. The effects of the smaller critters probably have much much more affect on man and the earth than the magnificent beasts.

Have you moved?
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Old 10-18-2014, 04:17 PM   #33
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To sit off the west side of Vancouver island in a boat, power off at night and hear the blows the smell of the breath of a couple of humpback whales. Watch the tail of a gray whale rise before you just take's my breath away.

I would miss the seals that entertain us here at the marina.
Very well put, OFB. I think you summed it up much better than I could.

This time of year, we get a lot of spiders in the house. It seems to be a PNW thing, or perhaps it's common everywhere as they are, I assume, preparing for winter.

A lot of people scream when they see a spider and desperately call for someone to kill it. Now if the question was a Black Widow or Brown Recluse or me, I would pick me. But I can't recall this ever being a choice I've had to make, so we always do our best to catch the spider and move it back outside.

There is a selfish reason in this in addition to it seeming rather pointless to deprive something of its life just because we can And that is that in some cultures I've learned a bit about, killing a spider will cause it to rain.

Now I suppose in southern California where the place is either on fire or washing away in flash floods, causing it to rain during a drought could be a good thing. But here in the PNW, rain is not something that's in short supply. So the spiders that wander into our house (or occasionally onto our boat) are simply subjected to a relocation program.

Not that they won't turn around and come back in again, but hey, if that's what they are determined to do, we're not going to try to change the habits of a zillion years of living here. They probably have more intelligent reasons for doing what they do than we have for what we do.
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Old 10-18-2014, 07:20 PM   #34
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The key is not just that humans need to value the lives of other living creatures, but of each other as well.
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Old 10-18-2014, 07:28 PM   #35
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The key is not just that humans need to value the lives of other living creatures, but of each other as well.
.... pretty scary some of the more extreme points of view...I wouldn't know who had my back in a tough scenario.
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Old 10-18-2014, 07:56 PM   #36
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Marin,
Chris got bit by a Hobo spider. Seems they came from England and ride the rails in the US. I usually move the little guys outside too. Except the Hobo. It does not have rings on it's legs.
Yes OFB chose some good words and I remember him for that.
OFB my "vision" is that we as a species wake up and realize which end of our body we're thinking with and put warm and fuzzy feelings, likes and dislikes, notions and passions where they belong. Following people w ideas because other people are is the first dumb thing we need to stop. It now looks like a peaceful earth will never come to pass as long as men are on the planet. Men need to start making smart decisions instead of endless dumb ones.

Re whale and Orca watching we need to think only of what's best for the planet and the Orca's casting aside any notions about what's good for us. People having fun watching them should not be a part of the whales life. We should just leave them alone.
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Old 10-18-2014, 08:00 PM   #37
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The key is not just that humans need to value the lives of other living creatures, but of each other as well.
Based on what I have been seeing all over the world in recent years in the course of my travels for work, I think this is slowly being bred out of us. I see less and less regard for human life among humans. I suspect this is due largely to desensitization because of media including YouTube, etc, "entertainment" (movies, games, etc.), growing extremist movements be they political, religious, cultural, or social, and the very slow-growing basic reaction to overpopulation. (This last could be the root cause of all the developments we're seeing worldwide.)

I know that I am as susceptible to this as anyone else. I feel really bad seeing stories such as the recent one of two Orcas starving to death (one on camera) in BC, but I have no reaction whatsoever to stories about people being murdered or killed in cars, or being caught up in genocide in Africa. I am convinced that if I had to make an instantaneous reaction while driving home at night to a deer and a person suddenly appearing in my headlights, I would automatically swerve to avoid the deer.

I personally believe the human race is headed for an extreme "correction" in terms of not just numbers, but in its attitude and actions on this planet with regards to everything from the environment to the other living things that share this space. I have no idea or even speculation what this correction will be, or when it will occur. But I am convinced there will be one, and it will not be pleasant for the people who have to experience it.

Psneeld expressed a concern for who might have his back given some of the opinions expressed in this thread. I think he has a very valid concern, and I believe the situation will get much, much worse (very slowly) before it gets any better.
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Old 10-18-2014, 08:09 PM   #38
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oooops Sorry for the thread creep.



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Old 10-18-2014, 08:48 PM   #39
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Marin,
Chris got bit by a Hobo spider.....
That's one I've not heard of before. I'll have to find out what it looks like.

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Re whale and Orca watching...People having fun watching them should not be a part of the whales life. We should just leave them alone.
I believe it's great when people have a chance to see the other creatures that share this space because it helps build both respect and appreciation on our part for the whole crowd of us that are cruising around on this big ball. However, part of that respect and appreciation should be the willingness to leave each other alone.

I think a boater, be it a kayaker, sailboater, or powerboater, who comes across a pod of whales or some sea otters or whatever, should take the time to pay attention to them and so get a glimpse of their world. But there's a big difference between simply floating along and observing what's around one, and actively (and noisily) pursuing them, even if it's just to get a photo.

I think the desire people have to see the other animals on this planet, particularly the ones we don't see as a matter of course, is terrific. The challenge lies in satisfying that worthwhile desire while at the same time doing as Eric believes and leaving the animals alone.

As usual, where things fall apart is when money becomes involved. Whale watch boats, camera safaris, etc. can gradually expand to the point where the line between unobtrusive, passive observation and harassment is crossed.

I don't have an easy answer for that one. My wife and I, in either of our boats, do what we can to minimize our impact on the animals we come across. In our waters, the seals and harbor porpoises have developed their own ways of minimizing the effect of our boats' presence. Not so the bigger animals, particularly the Gray, Minke, and Humpback whales, the Orcas, and the basking sharks. So when we come across them, or they come across us, we shut down our engine(s), turn off our depth sounder, and drift until they have made their own way past us.

Most of the time it's a non-event. Occasionally, it's quite a special event. We've been surrounded in our 17' Arima by hundreds of Pacific Whitesides, all swirling around us, diving under us, and spy-hopping up next to us to see what we looked like.

We've had a male Orca come up under the wing of our drifting floatplane in Misty Fjords, Alaska, and roll a bit to stare at the four of us standing on the float staring back at him. He floated there for a good minute or so, the top of his dorsal fin missing the bottom of the Beaver's wing by only a foot or two. I would love to know what was going through his mind as he looked at us and our plane.

These are magic moments, and I'm sure most of the participants on this forum have had similar moments no matter where they boat.

But these have been moments chosen by our visitors, not by us. We can disagree on anchors for the rest of our lives, Eric, but on this subject, I agree with you 100 percent. We should just leave them alone to do what they want to do.
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Old 10-18-2014, 08:54 PM   #40
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